South Wales 'Metro' updates

[gareth950]

If you want to read how Ken Skates thinks "it's the others boys fault" but is still "world class" and mustn't be criticised.

Read here.https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/ken-skates-metro-rail-wales-14391360

What a surprise it's Sion Barry who has written this 'good news' piece about the Metro and has given Ken Skates yet more positive spin airtime!

Mr Skates said: "We have committed close to £750m of investment to take forward the next phase of the south Wales Metro project and have been clear as a Welsh Government that we also have funding to support the proposed new M4 Relief Road too.

"This is not a question of one project competing with the other - that approach fundamentally misunderstands the scale of the problem and the overriding strategy need of the Welsh Government is to have both.
Right - where's this magic money tree growing then minister?

"Phase two will be fully operational by 2023.
I completely reject the suggestion being made that Metro is simply an upgrade of the current network - as I have said it is merely the start which makes everything else [future phases and strategic park and rides] possible.

Who of sound mental capacity would believe any of that?

 

[Gareth Marston]

What a surprise it's Sion Barry who has written this 'good news' piece about the Metro and has given Ken Skates yet more positive spin airtime!

Mr Skates said: "We have committed close to £750m of investment to take forward the next phase of the south Wales Metro project and have been clear as a Welsh Government that we also have funding to support the proposed new M4 Relief Road too.

"This is not a question of one project competing with the other - that approach fundamentally misunderstands the scale of the problem and the overriding strategy need of the Welsh Government is to have both.
Right - where's this magic money tree growing then minister?

"Phase two will be fully operational by 2023.
I completely reject the suggestion being made that Metro is simply an upgrade of the current network - as I have said it is merely the start which makes everything else [future phases and strategic park and rides] possible.

Who of sound mental capacity would believe any of that?

In the real world if you spend all your money on one thing then you can't spend it on another. MTR and Keolis do not have a magic wand to make things happen in Maesteg, Ebbw Vale etc.

Now it's in the open the consequences of the M4 Relief Road obsession are becoming clear for AM's. Skates glosses over the rest of South Wales but can't hide its another phase at an undisclosed date.

 

[gareth950]

In the real world if you spend all your money on one thing then you can't spend it on another. MTR and Keolis do not have a magic wand to make things happen in Maesteg, Ebbw Vale etc.

Now it's in the open the consequences of the M4 Relief Road obsession are becoming clear for AM's. Skates glosses over the rest of South Wales but can't hide its another phase at an undisclosed date.

The Vale of Glamorgan, Penarth & Barry aren't even mentioned by him. 150/2 DMUs in 2030?

 

[Dai Corner]

No commitment to anything other than electrification north of Queen Street and 12tph from Pontypridd to, er, somewhere in Cardiff then?

The cost of that electrification seems to have risen from £325m (as stated in the Capital Region City Deal ) to £750m, swallowing up the £400m that was supposed to be for the wider Metro area.

Oh, and how can he say the M4 Relief Road is fully funded when we don't even know how much it is likely to cost?

 

[gareth950]

No commitment to anything other than electrification north of Queen Street and 12tph from Pontypridd to, er, somewhere in Cardiff then?

The cost of that electrification seems to have risen from £325m (as stated in the Capital Region City Deal ) to £750m, swallowing up the £400m that was supposed to be for the wider Metro area.

Oh, and how can he say the M4 Relief Road is fully funded when we don't even know how much it is likely to cost?

The iron fist over party discipline that Carwyn Jones & Ken Skates previously had over the Labour group in the Assembly is starting to crumble and they are panicking as they know they will likely be defeated on a vote, symbolic or binding, on the M4 'black' route in the Assembly.

Of course he's also completely missing the point that the M4 relief road vs Metro debate is not just about money. It's also about the grave environmental concerns and of not repeating the mistakes of the 1960s & 70s of encouraging more people into cars, as well as the fact that the jams will just be displaced further west along the M4.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The South Wales Argue is less supportive

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ne...9_betraying__39__the_Valleys_over_rail_plans/

But, saying “this is not correct”, Mr Skates said the Welsh Government "remain absolutely committed to upgrading the core Valleys lines".

There we have it what we have been saying all along its an upgrade for one part of the Valley Lines network that WG think they have gained control off from Westminster. There is no such thing as "core valley lines" its an artificial construct driven by Political desperation of wanting more control of everything and a culture of blaming failure on not having control.

This is nothing to do with transport.

 

[Envoy]

Looks like work might have started on the new bus station at Waungron Park - on the western section of the City Line. If this is indeed the case, the idea of the scheme is to provide a bus/ rail interchange. This sounds all well and good - until you try to figure out how it is going to be beneficial?

Somebody coming down the City Line from Radyr (with connections to the central valleys), could alight at Waungron Park to catch buses out to Fairwater & St.Fagans. Well, they can do that already as the bus stops are on the road right by the railway station.

My understanding is that the Cardiff Buses to/from Ely (17 & 18) will go into the new ‘transport interchange’ and as well as being able to allow people to change to/from the trains, they can also get on the city circle bus route that crosses Western Avenue and serves Heath Hospital. Here again, they can already switch routes at the first bus stop east of the mini roundabout where Western Avenue meets Cowbridge Road. Should they wish to travel between Ely & Fairwater, they can also change at the same bus stops - providing they are are using the NAT buses. (Using Cardiff Bus in the Ely area would mean they would have to pay again when they switch to NAT for the run through Fairwater - unless they walk to Waungron Road to get a Cardiff Bus). Cardiff Bus is really owned by the Council.

Now, presumably, when the 17 & 18 buses start taking their detours into the new Waungron Transport Interchange - it will add about 8 to 10 minutes to the journey between Ely and Canton/city centre. No doubt, the good people of Ely will not be too happy about this and will try and catch the privately run NAT buses which will use the direct route - as at present. Traffic congestion at the Western Avenue / Waungron Road junction will also become worse with all these extra buses coming and going from the new transport interchange. Even now, traffic backs up all the way through to Fairwater Green during the morning peaks. This is really going to cause massive annoyance to the travelling public - whether they be in cars or on buses. Yet another crazy scheme dreamt up by ‘consultants’. I understand that it is going to cost about £1.7 million of taxpayers money.

The ironic thing is that had the buses been left alone, people travelling between Ely and Canton/city centre could have changed to/from the trains on the City Line at the proposed Ely Mill station - providing it is built near the footbridge over the mainline - although other buses using the new road through the Ely Mill site could have had a place to switch passengers on the south side of the City Line. So, no buses being sent on long diversions and £1.7 million saved on a transport interchange that will just cause traffic chaos.

I note that the new elevated road into the Ely Mill site from the west will not allow through traffic to/from Broad Street - thus bringing no relief to the residents of Lansdowne Road & Cowbridge Road. In fact, the new residents of Ely Mill will be increasing traffic on the aforementioned roads as they are to be denied direct access west / east - depending on which side of the site they live.
(Bus gates are to be used). It is a pity the money that went into building this expensive road was not used to firstly build a new bridge for the A48 over the mainline - and thus make later electrification more easy. (Lowering the track here would surely be risky as it is on the flood plain of the river Ely).

A photo of the site follows - along with a map showing traffic jams in red.

 

[Mr Apples]

The recent CASR scheme meant that it was possible for two southbound trains (one from Caerphilly in platform 2, one from Pontypridd in platform 3) to be in Cardiff Queen Street at the same time. My train from Caerphilly was this morning held outside QS waiting for a platform (P3 was free). A guard told me that some ex-Caerphilly trains now have to use P3 just so that Arriva can perform ticket checks in the subway on those passengers changing at QS to go to the Bay. This means that that element of the investment was wasted, just for Arriva's convenience. It is not only the Welsh Government which is prepared to waste that investment.

 

[Dai Corner]

The recent CASR scheme meant that it was possible for two southbound trains (one from Caerphilly in platform 2, one from Pontypridd in platform 3) to be in Cardiff Queen Street at the same time. My train from Caerphilly was this morning held outside QS waiting for a platform (P3 was free). A guard told me that some ex-Caerphilly trains now have to use P3 just so that Arriva can perform ticket checks in the subway on those passengers changing at QS to go to the Bay. This means that that element of the investment was wasted, just for Arriva's convenience. It is not only the Welsh Government which is prepared to waste that investment.

Hmmm. An Anytime Day Return from Heath High Level to Queen St is £2.70 and that to the Bay is £4.00. From other stations on the Caerphilly line the fare to the Bay appears to be the same as that to Queen St so no revenue at all to be gained / protected.

 

[gareth950]

The recent CASR scheme meant that it was possible for two southbound trains (one from Caerphilly in platform 2, one from Pontypridd in platform 3) to be in Cardiff Queen Street at the same time. My train from Caerphilly was this morning held outside QS waiting for a platform (P3 was free). A guard told me that some ex-Caerphilly trains now have to use P3 just so that Arriva can perform ticket checks in the subway on those passengers changing at QS to go to the Bay. This means that that element of the investment was wasted, just for Arriva's convenience. It is not only the Welsh Government which is prepared to waste that investment.

I assume you mean P2 was free but you were held to wait for P3?

From looking at RTT, P2 at QS is now not being used before 11am, with all down trains being put through P3, including Radyr via City line trains which usually use P2 along with Penarth trains.

NR must be quietly cursing ATW and WG right now for more or less discounting a major upgrade scheme they spent 4 years and hundreds of millions of £s delivering.

I also can't understand why ATW are making such a fuss about revenue protection in the last year of the franchise when they hadn't employed RPIs in the previous 13 - 14 years. It's as if they are now shamelessly trying to squeeze every last penny out of it that they can.

 

[gareth950]

Meanwhile, today in the Assembly at FMQs:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-43393131

No decision taken on electric trains for Ebbw Vale and Maesteg
By Nick Servini
Political editor, Wales

A decision has yet to be made on electrifying the south Wales valley rail lines to Ebbw Vale and Maesteg, First Minister Carwyn Jones has said.

But he told AMs the towns would enjoy better services from Cardiff as part of development of the South Wales Metro.

Plaid Cymru has accused ministers of dropping electrification of some valley lines after seeing outline proposals.

Ebbw Vale and Maesteg connections are in the metro scheme but not part of the first phase of its development.

Instead, that will focus on the lines to Rhondda, Cynon Valley, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney.

The Welsh Government will announce in May which train operator will be given the 15 year franchise to run the metro, and the wider Wales and Borders services, currently run by Arriva Trains Wales.

Two companies are in the running: KeolisAmey and MTR.

During First Minister's questions on Tuesday, Mr Jones said the electrification of the Ebbw Vale line was not included in the original specification, which was disputed by Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood.

Mr Jones said: "Let me be absolutely clear, there will be more frequent services. There will be better services.

"Some lines will be electrified first and the business case will be looked at in the future.

"You cannot electrify them all at once. We are looking at the lines to develop electrification as time goes on."

The Welsh Government is taking over control of the track and infrastructure in the central valleys lines, where services are set to run four times an hour by 2023.

But the lines leading to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale will remain under the control of Network Rail.

The Welsh Government says the short term plan for these lines is to increase to twice-hourly services with the possibility of up to four services in hour in the longer term.

As part of the terms of the new franchise, a rise in passenger numbers of 159% has been predicted over the next 15 years in those metro services running in the central south Wales valleys.

The train operating company that wins the new franchise is also likely to make around half of the profits generated by Arriva Trains Wales.

If the company hits its target on passenger numbers, it will generate a profit margin of between 2% and 3%.

That compares with a profit of 6.9% after tax made by Arriva Trains Wales in 2016.

If it exceeds that target then it could make profits of up to 5%, anything above that has to be shared with the Welsh Government.

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Why all the focus on Ebbw Vale and Maesteg? Why is no one sticking up for the Barry, Vale Of Glamorgan, and Penarth lines? Thankfully the reality is starting to hit that it will only be a very partial 'upgrade'

 

[gareth950]

Here's the video of the full exchange between Leanne Wood and Carwyn Jones today:

 

[Gareth Marston]

Here's the video of the full exchange between Leanne Wood and Carwyn Jones today:

So the First Minister is promising more frequent services to Ebbw Vale, Maesteg, Chepstow, Abergavenny etc even though Transport for Wales have ruled out the infrastructure work needed to allow them along with the electrification!

 

[Del1977]

So the First Minister is promising more frequent services to Ebbw Vale, Maesteg, Chepstow, Abergavenny etc even though Transport for Wales have ruled out the infrastructure work needed to allow them along with the electrification!

One of my criticisms of the WAG on the Metro project has been a lack of public commitments. At least this is one commitment upon which they can be judged.

 

[CardiffKid]

One of my criticisms of the WAG on the Metro project has been a lack of public commitments. At least this is one commitment upon which they can be judged.

I'll re-post what I wrote a few weeks back:

“Metro will run at least four services an hour across the whole network”

http://gov.wales/topics/transport/public/metro/?lang=en

Fairly cast iron commitment, right there.

 

[Gareth Marston]

One of my criticisms of the WAG on the Metro project has been a lack of public commitments. At least this is one commitment upon which they can be judged.

I wonder what adjustments are now being made to bring forward the Infrastructure works needed. Did the Head of Network Rail Wales Route get a phone call saying "Carwyn says its on again- any chance you can fit in to CP6?" Did he say "so you want some work doing like CASR with no messing around, no moving goalposts and clear objectives with services ready to be implemented"?

Or are "clever" civil servants now designing Metro Maps with Phase 3 written on them? So Carwyn can proclaim "success "?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'll re-post what I wrote a few weeks back:



Fairly cast iron commitment, right there.

So when in May we find out this isn't the case everywhere we will have misunderstood what the Welsh Government meant by "South Wales Metro" and "whole network".

 

[Gareth Marston]

No prizes for guessing the source for this "good news spin" on the Metro from Sion Berry.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/busin...&utm_campaign=google_news&utm_content=sitemap

Why rail passengers in Wales could soon have no toilets on services
But a huge investment in new station toilet facilities is committed

Instead, if they're caught short on their journey, they'll be encouraged to get off and use new facilities on stations being installed as part of a £50m investment.

A condition of the bid is that passengers, regardless of where they are on the network, are no more than 20 minutes away from ‘high quality’ toilet facilities. In reality the vast majority will be far closer.

The new franchise will see four services an hour from the periphery of the network, including stations like Merthyr, where there are currently just one. And at stations like Pontypridd there will up to 12 services an hour.

A light rail solution would also mean journey times on the periphery of the network (for example, Merthyr to Cardiff and vice versa) of around 40 minutes, compared to just over an hour now.

And as part of the franchise and build and design contract for Valleys Lines electrification, the next operator has to commit £50m in upgrading station facilities - including provision for more toilets.

While a matter for the winning bidder, on last services on the network at night, there could be longer stopping times at stations to allow passengers to take comfort breaks.

Ebbw Vale, Measteg, Vale etc all glossed over. Sounds very much like a Cardiff Bay spin exercise,after all we cant have any criticism of Saint Carywn and the Welsh Governments perfect world class plans,

 

[gareth950]

No prizes for guessing the source for this "good news spin" on the Metro from Sion Berry.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/busin...&utm_campaign=google_news&utm_content=sitemap

Ebbw Vale, Measteg, Vale etc all glossed over. Sounds very much like a Cardiff Bay spin exercise,after all we cant have any criticism of Saint Carywn and the Welsh Governments perfect world class plans,

He can't even get his facts right, saying there's currently one tph from Merthyr. Extended comfort breaks at stations in the evenings - words fail me.

He's got to be in Ken Skates' pocket - he's wheeled out to do a good news story whenever there is criticism of the Metro.

 

[Del1977]

Yes there's lots of inaccuracies in that piece. He should have said Rhymney, rather than Merthyr, as an example of a terminus with typically 1tph.

On the toilets, I have a different view to the vast majority of other posters, but that's from my experience of living at the end of the Central Line for 6 years, and having say a 10 minute walk from a pub in the West End to Tottenham Court Road tube station, a typical 8 minute wait for a tube going to Epping, followed by a 45 minute tube ride and a further 10 minute walk home. And before I am told about all these suburban Underground stations with toilets, I can assure you, these are not open late in the evening. People manage okay in London. What's different about people living in the Valleys?

Oh, and I've never once used a toilet on a Valley Lines train when I used those regularly either.


Go before you board the train. Go when you arrive home.

 

[Gareth Marston]

He can't even get his facts right, saying there's currently one tph from Merthyr. Extended comfort breaks at stations in the evenings - words fail me.

He's got to be in Ken Skates' pocket - he's wheeled out to do a good news story whenever there is criticism of the Metro.

This claim looks highly suspicious given the supposed benefits of having extra stops are being touted.

A light rail solution would also mean journey times on the periphery of the network (for example, Merthyr to Cardiff and vice versa) of around 40 minutes, compared to just over an hour now

There obviously very touchy about any questioning of what they have planned behind closed doors so they have to distort things to try and put a shine on things. Its quite pathetic. However the cats out the bag now even if Walesonline/Western Mail don't want to acknowledge it.

Carywn and Skates can only hide behind saying "nothings decided" and waffling general platitudes until May- the detail will be out then in black and white. No amount of spin and Sion Berry PR will be able to hide the fact that they have planned a split two tier system and many communities will see little or no improvement.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes there's lots of inaccuracies in that piece. He should have said Rhymney, rather than Merthyr, as an example of a terminus with typically 1tph.

On the toilets, I have a different view to the vast majority of other posters, but that's from my experience of living at the end of the Central Line for 6 years, and having say a 10 minute walk from a pub in the West End to Tottenham Court Road tube station, a typical 8 minute wait for a tube going to Epping, followed by a 45 minute tube ride and a further 10 minute walk home. And before I am told about all these suburban Underground stations with toilets, I can assure you, these are not open late in the evening. People manage okay in London. What's different about people living in the Valleys?

Oh, and I've never once used a toilet on a Valley Lines train when I used those regularly either.


Go before you board the train. Go when you arrive home.

You'll have to tell the Welsh Government that.....

 

[Dai Corner]

I think Skates and Jones should plied with large quantities of liquid refreshment at the Metro opening ceremony and then made to take the tram all the way to Merthyr where unfortunately the toilets won't have been built yet.

 

[Chester1]

Is 40 minutes from Merthyr to Cardiff actually possible? Assuming no new stops and 60mph tram-trams I don't think it is.

 

[gareth950]

Yes there's lots of inaccuracies in that piece. He should have said Rhymney, rather than Merthyr, as an example of a terminus with typically 1tph.

On the toilets, I have a different view to the vast majority of other posters, but that's from my experience of living at the end of the Central Line for 6 years, and having say a 10 minute walk from a pub in the West End to Tottenham Court Road tube station, a typical 8 minute wait for a tube going to Epping, followed by a 45 minute tube ride and a further 10 minute walk home. And before I am told about all these suburban Underground stations with toilets, I can assure you, these are not open late in the evening. People manage okay in London. What's different about people living in the Valleys?

Oh, and I've never once used a toilet on a Valley Lines train when I used those regularly either.


Go before you board the train. Go when you arrive home.

And people with bowel and/or bladder conditions who literally can't hold on? Should we just bar them from using rail transport in the Valleys? Despite Sion Barry's desperate PR spin, journeys from the heads are still going to be around 1 hour, and the 4tph claim is only for the peaks.

To keep said station toilets in working order, an army of mobile cleaners will need to be employed to service the toilets multiple times a day and prevent any inappropriate behaviour in them. Then there's the maintenance costs. It will end up costing the new TOC much more than just having toilets on trains.

 

[gareth950]

I think Skates and Jones should plied with large quantities of liquid refreshment at the Metro opening ceremony and then made to take the tram all the way to Merthyr where unfortunately the toilets won't have been built yet.

I doubt they'll be ministers by the time the Metro opens. It'll be the next lot's problem.

 

[Del1977]

I think Skates and Jones should plied with large quantities of liquid refreshment at the Metro opening ceremony and then made to take the tram all the way to Merthyr where unfortunately the toilets won't have been built yet.

This had me laughing.

 

[Del1977]

Is 40 minutes from Merthyr to Cardiff actually possible? Assuming no new stops and 60mph tram-trams I don't think it is.

Hmm - let's see, using my Central line example:

It's about 30km (18.5 miles) by rail line from Chancery Lane to Epping and that is timetabled to take about 40 minutes with 16 stops.

Merthyr Tydfil is 23 miles from Cardiff Queen Street, and currently has 13 stops (including Treforest Estate)


It would be pushing it, I think. Maybe possible, but only if the station distances / acceleration and braking are such that the unit can operate very close to its design speed outside of stops, and with minimum dwell times. If you add in two more stops on the long, straight stretch between Llandaff and Cathays, that has to raise further doubts?

45 minutes may be more realistic?

 

[MarkyT]

Is 40 minutes from Merthyr to Cardiff actually possible? Assuming no new stops and 60mph tram-trams I don't think it is.

Light rail derived vehicles would not be able to go faster than today's speed limits. They are likely to have better acceleration and braking though so could probably reach maximum more quickly from a start and sustain it for longer approaching the next stop. Stops might also be marginally briefer, at least at the more minor stations. The journey time saving claims look a little over ambitious though, I agree.

As to toilets, these are a major headache on board from an operator's and fleet engineer's point of view. I can understand proposals to not provide them and I don't think that's a a heavy/light argument at all - look at the new 'heavy' Elizabeth line in London for example - no toilets on a route of up to 60 miles across London, but a commitment to having toilets open at stations instead. I like the idea of having toilets in a select number of stations at strategic points around the valleys network, so you're never more than so many minutes from one, but these need to be on the platforms at these sites or very close by and guaranteed to be open during operating hours.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The underlying plan that became CASR included a "Taff Express" proposal - basically the service from Merthyr woudl run non stop to Central south of Trefforest via Radyr and City Line. Sprinter timings were 46/47 minutes and about 50/51 to Queen St.

That's something Core valley lines cant do.