South Wales 'Metro' updates

[B&I]

With most people it is nostalgia, especially when people combine converting lines back to heavy rail with reopening Manchester Central! The trains into Manchester are standing room only in the peaks too and Metrolink standing could be significantly reduced by more double trams, currently very few are doubles. The removal of trains from Altrincham has freed up capacity for other services. A tunnel has support as a long term option but it is at least 20 years away and it would be on a very different route to what was planned 40 years ago. Metrolink was the best solution because it has become a network covering large areas at a cost similiar too a limited amount of tunnelling and a couple of underground stations.

I don't see what the benefits of light rail conversion are for the heavy rail network in Cardiff, CASR has resolved the infrastructure part of the capacity issues. A South Wales light rail system might work but it is a project that doesn't solve any major problems.

Is it possible to be nostalgic for something which never existed? If the Picc-Vic scheme had gone ahead, no-one but the odd maniac would suggest replacing it with a Metrolink-type scheme. It may have been the best available within the context of inadequate investment, but that doesn't make it adequate in any objective sense.

 

[158756]

Is it possible to be nostalgic for something which never existed? If the Picc-Vic scheme had gone ahead, no-one but the odd maniac would suggest replacing it with a Metrolink-type scheme. It may have been the best available within the context of inadequate investment, but that doesn't make it adequate in any objective sense.

You wouldn't rip it out, but I very much doubt anyone on what are today the Oldham, Ashton, Eccles, Didsbury or Airport lines would be satisfied with their public transport, or that the Altrincham and Bury lines would be as well used as they are now.

 

[Chester1]

Is it possible to be nostalgic for something which never existed? If the Picc-Vic scheme had gone ahead, no-one but the odd maniac would suggest replacing it with a Metrolink-type scheme. It may have been the best available within the context of inadequate investment, but that doesn't make it adequate in any objective sense.

I was referring to the nostalgia towards heavy rail in general which in regards to Manchester can lead to an anti Metrolink sentiment, usually by non residents! If we purely focus on the city centre then Picc-Vic would have been better than Metrolink but looking at the city region the Metrolink is better and reaches a large number of places that would otherwise not be served or be poorly served by heavy rail. Starting a network by converting heavy rail is the safest option but the gamble only pays off if further expansion actually takes place.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that even when a light rail (or BRT) scheme is a success there will always some people who will never accept that and never will. I have doubts about converting the Valleys lines to light rail but it could be a success and still be disliked by a significant number of rail enthusiasts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You wouldn't rip it out, but I very much doubt anyone on what are today the Oldham, Ashton, Eccles, Didsbury or Airport lines would be satisfied with their public transport, or that the Altrincham and Bury lines would be as well used as they are now.

Would they not? Merseyrail seems popular enough.

 

[Dai Corner]

The current section of the A465 project 6 miles or so from Brynmawr to Gilwern had an authorised price tag of £800 million, it's known to be seriously over budget.once that's finished they still have another section they will want to chuck money at. The current M4 price tag is £1500 million. So Welsh Government are or are planning to sink £3 Billion in to big road projects.

Thanks.

Assuming the £725m City Deal money is still there and adding in the £300m spent on CASR plus the electrification and IETs I think it's hard to argue that the railways in south east Wales are not getting a fair share. Let's concentrate on how it should be spent though.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I was referring to the nostalgia towards heavy rail in general which in regards to Manchester can lead to an anti Metrolink sentiment, usually by non residents! If we purely focus on the city centre then Picc-Vic would have been better than Metrolink but looking at the city region the Metrolink is better and reaches a large number of places that would otherwise not be served or be poorly served by heavy rail. Starting a network by converting heavy rail is the safest option but the gamble only pays off if further expansion actually takes place.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that even when a light rail (or BRT) scheme is a success there will always some people who will never accept that and never will. I have doubts about converting the Valleys lines to light rail but it could be a success and still be disliked by a significant number of rail enthusiasts.

Raising Metrolink and its history is not a bad thing in relation to South Wales. Both the Picc/Vic link and Metrolink sought to enable cross city journeys and better access the core of the city than was being achieved by the historic edge of the city stations. These plans were all designed for the whole region to benefit from.

In South Wales the existing HR system already accesses the city centre and already provides cross city journeys therefore you don't need to mess with it to achieve those aims yet this is what the "Core Valley Lines" will do. Whilst Manchester has looked to its whole city region the Welsh Government have got distracted by the opportunity to take control of something from Westminster, are hamstrung by their road building plans limiting their own funding but also want to be seen to implement the South Wales Metro hence this deeply flawed bodge has appeared as a way the Welsh Government hopes it can have its cake and eat it.

 

[B&I]

I was referring to the nostalgia towards heavy rail in general which in regards to Manchester can lead to an anti Metrolink sentiment, usually by non residents! If we purely focus on the city centre then Picc-Vic would have been better than Metrolink but looking at the city region the Metrolink is better and reaches a large number of places that would otherwise not be served or be poorly served by heavy rail. Starting a network by converting heavy rail is the safest option but the gamble only pays off if further expansion actually takes place.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that even when a light rail (or BRT) scheme is a success there will always some people who will never accept that and never will. I have doubts about converting the Valleys lines to light rail but it could be a success and still be disliked by a significant number of rail enthusiasts.

I've no problem with the on-street Metrolink lines, which seem to me as good as any other on-street tramline, and which were the only likely alternative to buses to serve the areas in question (assuming no-one would ever have built a tube to Eccles or Droylesden, for example). My problem is the reduction of capacity between HR and MR vehicles, and light rail conversion impeding use of heavy rail through routes. There could have been decent quality HR if any money was ever spent on them.

Re South Wales, it is a similar situation in some ways. A light rail scheme could be be built serving currently bus-dependent parts of Cardiff. Tram-trains could join heavy rail lines to run into the centre if there was capacity.

 

[B&I]

You wouldn't rip it out, but I very much doubt anyone on what are today the Oldham, Ashton, Eccles, Didsbury or Airport lines would be satisfied with their public transport, or that the Altrincham and Bury lines would be as well used as they are now.

IIRC, the Oldham line would have been one of the northern routes feeding the Pic-Vicc tunnel (along with the Bury and Radcliffe-Bolton lines). I'm sure Altrincham and Bury would have regular 6 car EMUs serving them. The Metrolink lines which were not built on heavy rail alignments could have been built anyway, while retaining a Merseyrail-style electric commuter service on HR lines (which was, after all, what Manchester started building in the mid 70s).

 

[Gareth Marston]

IIRC, the Oldham line would have been one of the northern routes feeding the Pic-Vicc tunnel (along with the Bury and Radcliffe-Bolton lines). I'm sure Altrincham and Bury would have regular 6 car EMUs serving them. The Metrolink lines which were not built on heavy rail alignments could have been built anyway, while retaining a Merseyrail-style electric commuter service on HR lines (which was, after all, what Manchester started building in the mid 70s).

Which is what is needed in South Wales - the LRT system complements the existing HR system not replaces part of it and starves the rest of investment as is proposed by TfW.

The primary gaps in public transport provision are mainly the housing developments on the NW and NE periphery of Cardiff. I've got the bus from the City centre out to Cardiff Gate a few times - it takes an hour to do about 8 miles going on zig zag routes through housing estates. These are the areas that are really crying out for the Metro yet TfW have kicked these projects into the long grass. Heavy Rail already serves most of the valley towns that run off the Taff and Rhymney Valleys. The gaps in provision in the Valleys are all on the valleys that use to have services that ran to Newport and are some distance from Cardiff. Blackwood and Tredegar in the Sirhowy Valley , Abertillery and Brynmawr in the Ebbw Fach and Pontypool.

 

[Chester1]

IIRC, the Oldham line would have been one of the northern routes feeding the Pic-Vicc tunnel (along with the Bury and Radcliffe-Bolton lines). I'm sure Altrincham and Bury would have regular 6 car EMUs serving them. The Metrolink lines which were not built on heavy rail alignments could have been built anyway, while retaining a Merseyrail-style electric commuter service on HR lines (which was, after all, what Manchester started building in the mid 70s).

So no Oldham and Rochdale town centre stops and more services into the Castlefield corridor or less from elsewhere? As I have stated, there is sufficient capacity to run 3 double trains on the whole length of the Bury Line doubling capacity. If that is not enough then the cost of taking over part of the ELR to run a Bury to Victoria heavy rail service is relatively cheap. If the Bury line had not been converted its maximum capacity would be higher but that doesn't really matter when there is plenty of capacity left. Meeting demand in South Wales will be significantly harder though. Converting to Radyr and diverting heavy rail services via the City Line might make more sense and pay for a line to Penarth instead.

 

[snowball]

IIRC, the Oldham line would have been one of the northern routes feeding the Pic-Vicc tunnel (along with the Bury and Radcliffe-Bolton lines). I'm sure Altrincham and Bury would have regular 6 car EMUs serving them. The Metrolink lines which were not built on heavy rail alignments could have been built anyway, while retaining a Merseyrail-style electric commuter service on HR lines (which was, after all, what Manchester started building in the mid 70s).

The publicity I saw when Picc-Vic was current (including a leaflet of which I still have a copy) never mentioned the Oldham or Rochdale lines, only the Bury line that is now Metrolink and a reopened Bolton via Radcliffe line. Oldham and Rochdale are not mentioned on the Wikipedia page on Picc-Vic.

 

[Envoy]

Converting to Radyr and diverting heavy rail services via the City Line might make more sense and pay for a line to Penarth instead.

I think that the planners at the Welsh Government - along with the planning departments of Cardiff & Rhondda Cynon Taff Councils, had envisaged tearing up one of the few remaining swathes of open countryside between NW Cardiff and the Beddau/Church Village area for massive building projects. They had based this development area around having a new metro line following the former railway that came off the City Line in Fairwater and went out to Cregiau and on to Beddau. To cover themselves against no new line being built, they (or Vectos) came up with the ridiculous idea that buses would speed the new residents into Cardiff via the bottlenecks at Llandaff, Fairwater or use the Cowbridge Road through Ely & Canton.

If trams/tram-trains were to go meandering around the new housing areas, that would rather defeat the object of having a rapid transit scheme. (The valley lines are successful because they do not do this - passengers must make their way to the village station). The old line was only single track so to make it double when re-built would not be that easy or cheap. With it only being single track, it limits the so called ‘turn up & go’ services that the Metro says will happen. (The same can be said about the upper valleys - unless they spend a load of money re-doubling them).

Now, any new line coming in from the Cregiau area (or even Beddau), has to join the City Line just north of Fairwater station. The City Line enters the Central Station from the west via Ninian Park and as such - would have to go via tracks that Network Rail wish to retain. So, if Network Rail refuse to let this light rail system onto their tracks, it means that the City Line must remain as ‘normal’ rail - which surely blows to pieces all of the plans that have been made for the new development areas to be served by this new Metro? Of course, advocates of the tram/tram-train system may well come back on this forum and say that just before Ninian Park station, the City Line will take to the streets. Indeed, one of the maps issued by Transport for Wales does show this.

Quite how they would get through all the congestion - goodness knows? Can you imagine the passengers on the City Line (western section)- who at present have a direct run into the Central Station, having to come off their previous route around the south side of the Canton depot to then travel along congested roads? They will be asking why the Welsh Government has authorised spending all this money to make things worse? They surely will be demanding to enter the Central Station directly - as they do now - along with being able to continue to Queen Street and even further around the city to places like Heath and Rhiwbeina.

For those of you who are wondering where this old single track rail route is - click the link. At the bottom right corner, you will find Fairwater station. At the top left, you will see Cregiau. Look for the line of trees/buses that joins the two. Note that the M4 sliced through the route near M4 J33 - so a diversion would be needed in this area to join the former double track railway that once crossed the Ely valley via the Drope viaduct - now the A4232 expressway.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5096389,-3.2832512,4423m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[gareth950]

TfW have released a tender notice to get interest for the Metro construction works. Funnily enough, all the details have been kept secret.

https://transport-network.co.uk/Welsh-Government-tenders-700m-South-Wales-Metro-framework/14789
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/te...wales-metro-civils-framework/10027766.article

http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:50153-2018:TEXT:EN:HTML&tabId=1
https://www.sell2wales.gov.wales/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=FEB235451

According to the news articles, the 'Core Valley lines' is the South Wales Metro. Right.

 

[Gareth Marston]

TfW have released a tender notice to get interest for the Metro construction works. Funnily enough, all the details have been kept secret.

https://transport-network.co.uk/Welsh-Government-tenders-700m-South-Wales-Metro-framework/14789
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/te...wales-metro-civils-framework/10027766.article

http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:50153-2018:TEXT:EN:HTML&tabId=1
https://www.sell2wales.gov.wales/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=FEB235451

According to the news articles, the 'Core Valley lines' is the South Wales Metro. Right.

Most of the people of South Wales will be wondering where the "metro" is in a few years.

 

[gareth950]

Most of the people of South Wales will be wondering where the "metro" is in a few years.

What's scary about all of this is that Ken Skates wants TfW to take over the running of the entire public transport system in Wales within a few years, emulating TfL.

Local councils should be in charge of not for profit bus services for their areas, not a central transport body in Cardiff. The Cardiff Bus model works well enough.

 

[B&I]

The publicity I saw when Picc-Vic was current (including a leaflet of which I still have a copy) never mentioned the Oldham or Rochdale lines, only the Bury line that is now Metrolink and a reopened Bolton via Radcliffe line. Oldham and Rochdale are not mentioned on the Wikipedia page on Picc-Vic.

I think what I was going on was this, which shows Oldham as a line included in a later phase. (What is obviously missing from te later phases is another east-west line for the lines west, and to some extent east, of Victoria).

https://alchetron.com/Picc-Vic-tunnel

Note that plans are said to have included an additional light rail network.

So no Oldham and Rochdale town centre stops and more services into the Castlefield corridor or less from elsewhere? As I have stated, there is sufficient capacity to run 3 double trains on the whole length of the Bury Line doubling capacity. If that is not enough then the cost of taking over part of the ELR to run a Bury to Victoria heavy rail service is relatively cheap. If the Bury line had not been converted its maximum capacity would be higher but that doesn't really matter when there is plenty of capacity left. Meeting demand in South Wales will be significantly harder though. Converting to Radyr and diverting heavy rail services via the City Line might make more sense and pay for a line to Penarth instead.

Light rail advocates are always arguing that heavy rail fans need to accept trade offs. Having used heavy rail to reach Oldham and Rochdale pre-conversion, my personal preference would be for a faster, higher capacity service and a longer walk, but I appreciate others may think differently.

The continued presence of Altrincham trains in the Castlefield corridor (remembering that it coped with higher frequency Altrincham services up until the 60s) would have been offset by trains removed from Castlefield by the Picc-Vic link, probably some Bolton and Hazel Grove-bound services. (More would have been removed had the plan been for a more straightforward connection of more use to cross-Manchester services generally, e.g. from Pendelton to Slade Lane). I suspect that, had attitudes towards public spending been different enough for the Picc-Vic link to be completed, other improvements would have followed along with the widespread electrification etc planned in addition to the original tunnel (e.g. re-use of the Central approach viaducts for Altrincham-bound trains in the way they were in fact used for Metrolink, maybe, eventually, a second cross-city tunnel).

Would 6 car trams be able to negotiate the street-running sections? Or would this take us back to the need for a tunnel, and heavy rail standards of infrastructure to move comparable numbers of people by light rail?

 

[snowball]

The continued presence of Altrincham trains in the Castlefield corridor (remembering that it coped with higher frequency Altrincham services up until the 60s) would have been offset by trains removed from Castlefield by the Picc-Vic link, probably some Bolton and Hazel Grove-bound services. (More would have been removed had the plan been for a more straightforward connection of more use to cross-Manchester services generally, e.g. from Pendelton to Slade Lane). I suspect that, had attitudes towards public spending been different enough for the Picc-Vic link to be completed, other improvements would have followed along with the widespread electrification etc planned in addition to the original tunnel (e.g. re-use of the Central approach viaducts for Altrincham-bound trains in the way they were in fact used for Metrolink, maybe, eventually, a second cross-city tunnel).

Getting off topic for a Cardiff thread, but you seem to be assuming that the Windsor link would still have been built, when it's quite likely that (even if BR would still have put it forward, which I'm not sure of) central government would have said "Greater Manchester has had its rail capital spending for the next 25 years." You also seem to be assuming that Central Station, which had already been closed in 1969, would have been reopened, despite the City Council's ambitions to turn it into a venue for exhibitions and conferences.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

A while back I asked this question. Could one of you experts please answer it? I'd be very grateful, thanks.

Not sure if I count as one of the experts but I am a local and I know Cardiff well

I know others in the thread have questioned the wisdom of it, but I would agree that there should be more stations on the lines going into Cardiff. The Crwys/Albany Road station has been on the agenda for a while and has always had a good business case - lots of students live near there. The Wedal Road suggestion is a fairly new idea but it also makes sense - I'm not sure both of these could be built. Stations at Gabalfa and Maindy (between Llandaf and Cathays) have been proposed in the SWM plan

I'm more than happy for these to happen - the more new stations the merrier in my mind. I'd suggest that they are served by local services from Pontypridd with skip-stopping for the services from further up the valleys, though. The problem I have is that the SWM plan seemed to deem those stations in and around Cardiff as viable but not the plans for stations elsewhere, which were nearly all rejected or put on ice. It has always seemed to me that in South Wales the most of the rail improvements in recent years have been for the benefit of primarily middle class areas, with more deprived areas getting shafted - Ebbw Vale sort of being the exception, but even then the stations served more affluent parts of the valley and even Ebbw Vale Town is all connected to the redevelopment. There's seemingly no prospect for the extensions to Bedlinog and Hirwaun, for instance

 

[gareth950]

Not sure if I count as one of the experts but I am a local and I know Cardiff well

I know others in the thread have questioned the wisdom of it, but I would agree that there should be more stations on the lines going into Cardiff. The Crwys/Albany Road station has been on the agenda for a while and has always had a good business case - lots of students live near there. The Wedal Road suggestion is a fairly new idea but it also makes sense - I'm not sure both of these could be built. Stations at Gabalfa and Maindy (between Llandaf and Cathays) have been proposed in the SWM plan

I'm more than happy for these to happen - the more new stations the merrier in my mind. I'd suggest that they are served by local services from Pontypridd with skip-stopping for the services from further up the valleys, though. The problem I have is that the SWM plan seemed to deem those stations in and around Cardiff as viable but not the plans for stations elsewhere, which were nearly all rejected or put on ice. It has always seemed to me that in South Wales the most of the rail improvements in recent years have been for the benefit of primarily middle class areas, with more deprived areas getting shafted - Ebbw Vale sort of being the exception, but even then the stations served more affluent parts of the valley and even Ebbw Vale Town is all connected to the redevelopment. There's seemingly no prospect for the extensions to Bedlinog and Hirwaun, for instance

I live near Crwys Road and it's only a 10-15 minute walk max to Cathays station. I honestly don't think it's worth it.

 

[HowardGWR]

I live near Crwys Road and it's only a 10-15 minute walk max to Cathays station. I honestly don't think it's worth it.

What about if you are visiting VOG destinations or commuting to Bristol? My locations also seemed to offer the possibility for P and R, being on ring road.
Thanks both, for responding, anyway. I don't know the area so well. My last visit to Queen St Station was in 1963!

 

[gareth950]

What about if you are visiting VOG destinations or commuting to Bristol? My locations also seemed to offer the possibility for P and R, being on ring road.
Thanks both, for responding, anyway. I don't know the area so well. My last visit to Queen St Station was in 1963!

All VoG destinations run directly to / from Cathays (for now).

But they are the most likely locations for new stations on the outskirts of the city.

 

[Chester1]

Would 6 car trams be able to negotiate the street-running sections? Or would this take us back to the need for a tunnel, and heavy rail standards of infrastructure to move comparable numbers of people by light rail?

Sorry to clarify, the Bury Line has two sets of services 5tph to Altrincham (ussually 2 x 2 coaches) and 5tph to Piccadilly (ussualy 2 coach units). In 2020 another 5tph (2 coach units) will run from Crumpsall to the Trafford Centre. The maximum capacity of the line will be 15tph of 2 x 2 coach sets. This is double current capacity. In addition running services from the ELR to Victoria has been proved technically viable and would have a comparable journey time from Bury to Victoria but there is insufficient demand. Metrolink conversion has placed some limitd on capacity but not ones that have been close to being met after 25 years.

Metrolink has a maximum length of 60m sets because of the junction layouts, most notably near Piccadilly Gardens and Market Street. Sets longer than 60m can and do run when a unit breaks down but they block junctions therefore are not opperationally viable on Metrolink. South Wales Metro could be designed for longer sets. The longest trams in opperation are CAF Urbo 3s some of which are 56m long (9 articulated coaches). I think the planning applications indicate single units of 50m that could be doubled to 100m. It is possible to have trams of 100m running on street sections but the network would need to be very carefully designed.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Is it possible to be nostalgic for something which never existed? If the Picc-Vic scheme had gone ahead, no-one but the odd maniac would suggest replacing it with a Metrolink-type scheme. It may have been the best available within the context of inadequate investment, but that doesn't make it adequate in any objective sense.

If the Bury and Altrincham lines later need to be separated away from the Metrolink network, that has no bearing on whether it was a good idea to put them on it. The timescale we're talking about here is 30-40 years from the initial conversion. The world can and will have changed in that time, and the choices made back them may need to be different now. A work like that wouldn't be about undoing anything, but building on it. Your argument is akin to someone saying the need to build the Second City Crossing demonstrates that the intial routing via Piccadilly Gardens was a poor one.

Transport networks are influenced by the world around them, and the world around them is influenced by transport networks. Sometimes it is absolutely in the best interests of the world to change transport networks to suit new and emergent demands. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Stanmore branch of the Metropolitan line being handed over to the Bakerloo line, and then handed over to the Jubilee line only 30-40 years later. Transport systems are not immutable, and the things that 'modern times' built do not need to be unchangeable.

I've no problem with the on-street Metrolink lines, which seem to me as good as any other on-street tramline, and which were the only likely alternative to buses to serve the areas in question (assuming no-one would ever have built a tube to Eccles or Droylesden, for example). My problem is the reduction of capacity between HR and MR vehicles, and light rail conversion impeding use of heavy rail through routes. There could have been decent quality HR if any money was ever spent on them.

At the time of Metrolink conversion concepts coming up, passenger numbers on the BR network were at a nadir. The network did not need massive injections of capacity. It needed a way to serve the demand that was there in a superior and more economic way, which would help stimulate further demand. Metrolink did that job as well as any scheme could practically do. Outside of London, all tunnelled metro networks have stagnated. The only changes have been on the surface where costs are minimal. The same would apply to Manchester. Great cities need infrastructure suited for their requirements now, not in the past. Lumbering a city with unnecessarily expensive and cumbersome infrastructure out of a sense of pride is a recipe for decline, not advancement. The low cost and easy modification of Metrolink has been crucial for building up Manchester once again. If other cities had that same capability, they would be doing far, far better.

I think that the planners at the Welsh Government - along with the planning departments of Cardiff & Rhondda Cynon Taff Councils, had envisaged tearing up one of the few remaining swathes of open countryside between NW Cardiff and the Beddau/Church Village area for massive building projects. They had based this development area around having a new metro line following the former railway that came off the City Line in Fairwater and went out to Cregiau and on to Beddau. To cover themselves against no new line being built, they (or Vectos) came up with the ridiculous idea that buses would speed the new residents into Cardiff via the bottlenecks at Llandaff, Fairwater or use the Cowbridge Road through Ely & Canton.

If trams/tram-trains were to go meandering around the new housing areas, that would rather defeat the object of having a rapid transit scheme. (The valley lines are successful because they do not do this - passengers must make their way to the village station). The old line was only single track so to make it double when re-built would not be that easy or cheap. With it only being single track, it limits the so called ‘turn up & go’ services that the Metro says will happen. (The same can be said about the upper valleys - unless they spend a load of money re-doubling them).

Street running does not mean trams act like any other road vehicles. The amount of shared street running actually used by state-of-the-art tram systems is relatively small. A street-running metro system through the suburbs would be deliberately designed to be fast as well as serving the population well. Look at how Metrolink serves Wythenshawe.

Now, any new line coming in from the Cregiau area (or even Beddau), has to join the City Line just north of Fairwater station. The City Line enters the Central Station from the west via Ninian Park and as such - would have to go via tracks that Network Rail wish to retain. So, if Network Rail refuse to let this light rail system onto their tracks, it means that the City Line must remain as ‘normal’ rail - which surely blows to pieces all of the plans that have been made for the new development areas to be served by this new Metro? Of course, advocates of the tram/tram-train system may well come back on this forum and say that just before Ninian Park station, the City Line will take to the streets. Indeed, one of the maps issued by Transport for Wales does show this.

Why would Network Rail refuse to let this light rail system on their tracks? It's like you think NR are anything other than a managerial arm of the state. They have a responsibility to look after the railway network, but a scheme like this would do no damage in their opinion. If there is no requirement for HR services, then there is no reason to be annoyed. Valley Lines conversion to tram-train LR does no harm at all to NR's work on the rest of the mainline. If the LR trains are fitted with all necessary signalling and communication systems, are built to the required safety standards and are planned to run on lines fitted with adequate safety systems for shared running with freight, NR have precisely zero justification for blocking network access.

Quite how they would get through all the congestion - goodness knows? Can you imagine the passengers on the City Line (western section)- who at present have a direct run into the Central Station, having to come off their previous route around the south side of the Canton depot to then travel along congested roads? They will be asking why the Welsh Government has authorised spending all this money to make things worse? They surely will be demanding to enter the Central Station directly - as they do now - along with being able to continue to Queen Street and even further around the city to places like Heath and Rhiwbeina.

For those of you who are wondering where this old single track rail route is - click the link. At the bottom right corner, you will find Fairwater station. At the top left, you will see Cregiau. Look for the line of trees/buses that joins the two. Note that the M4 sliced through the route near M4 J33 - so a diversion would be needed in this area to join the former double track railway that once crossed the Ely valley via the Drope viaduct - now the A4232 expressway.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5096389,-3.2832512,4423m/data=!3m1!1e3

There is absolutely no enhancement which would be cheaper to deliver using HR. Any (re-)doubling must cost more when built to HR standards. That M4 crossing? With LR, you can have a 1-in-20 arch bridge crossing over an essentially unchanged motorway with 50m curve radii at either end. With HR, you would have little option but to rebuild the HR alignment exactly as-was and then rebuild the entire motorway to suit. A job like that would be enough to cripple the financial case for HR reopening of that line. With LR, the costs are as low as you can get.

 

[gareth950]

Are you going to come and personally pay for all of this magic money tree investment outside of the 'Core Valley lines' NotATrainspott'? Because no-one else is. Look at the procurement documents released today. There is nothing specified outside of the 'Core Valley lines'. Zero.

As for on-street running not being a problem and there being plenty of room for state of the art trams - you have clearly never visited Cardiff. Ever. Do these trams levitate?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Are you going to come and personally pay for all of this magic money tree investment outside of the 'Core Valley lines' NotATrainspott'? Because no-one else is. Look at the procurement documents released today. There is nothing specified outside of the 'Core Valley lines'. Zero.

As for on-street running not being a problem and there being plenty of room for state of the art trams - you have clearly never visited Cardiff. Ever. Do these trams levitate?

Its abundantly clear that notatrainspott

1. Does not know the physical layout of Cardiff / South Wales area.
2. Has no clue about the plans released by TfW and wont even acknowledge them.
   
3. Has no clue about the background political situation/funding and wont even acknowledge them.
   
4. Can only talk in generalities that bear no resemblance to whats actually happening.

The other generalist/ in theory clever boy Solaris has done a disappointing disappearing act form this thread/ personal messages. I note having been unable to answer basic questions.

 

[B&I]

Great cities need infrastructure suited for their requirements now, not in the past.

Quite. But by your own admission, Manchester is now lumbered with a transport system designed when public transport use in the city (and arguably, the city as a whole) was at its nadir, not one which reflects current demands. This wouldn't be a problem if TfGM had the honesty to accept that something different is needed now, and the money to do something about it. But so reluctant are they to admit that they have been lumbered with a second rate transport system, their only solution is to ruin yet more of the heavy rail network by pointless conversion, rather than provide what would actually work best. The parallels with South Wales are obvious.

As for your other points, are you saying that every tunneled metro system in the world except London's is stagnating? If so, why are so many other countries building them? Do we in Britain know something they don't, in our infinite light rail-based wisdom?

The only other lines vaguely comparable to tunneled metro in Britain are Merseyrail, T&W Metro and the Glasgow suburban networks. I don't know about the other two, but Merseyrail doesn't seem to me to be stagnating, and new trains are being procured on the assumption of 40% more passengers by 2028. If Merseyrail is stagnating, might that be something to do with there having been no system expansion in 23 years, and Liverpool's anaemic economic performance since 2008?

Whatever the position, I'm just glad that no-one was around in the early 70s to suggest that Liverpool's heavy rail lines should have been ruined with trams. O often wonder whether the disdain some people express towards Merseyrail stems from the fact that it's completion, at the time the Picc-Vic link was cancelled, was probably the last time a major public spending decision was made in favour of Liverpool rather than Manchester.

As for the notion that Metrolink has played any serious role in Manchester's growth in recent years, I think that might be a bit more down to colossal public and private sector investment, in particular concentration of public sector jobs (Manchester being the only place outside London to have increased public sector employment since 2010). Still, 10 out of 10 for chutzpah.

Your talk of misplaced pride is amusing. Which is worse, taking pride in an expensive system which transports a large number of people quickly and comfortably, or taking pride in a system whose chief attraction is, by your own admission, cheapness, just because It's the only system the short-sighted penny-pinchers who run Britain would pay for?

 

[B&I]

Getting off topic for a Cardiff thread, but you seem to be assuming that the Windsor link would still have been built, when it's quite likely that (even if BR would still have put it forward, which I'm not sure of) central government would have said "Greater Manchester has had its rail capital spending for the next 25 years." You also seem to be assuming that Central Station, which had already been closed in 1969, would have been reopened, despite the City Council's ambitions to turn it into a venue for exhibitions and conferences.

This is veering down tangent boulevard (except to the extent that other posters were holding up Manchester as a shining example to South Wales, and I felt that it served better as a warning). But I wasn't assuming either of those things. If the Windsor Link had not been built, few trains from the north west would have used the Castlefield corridor, and I think Altrincham local services generally ran to Piccadilly or Oxford Rd rather than Central.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is veering down tangent boulevard (except to the extent that other posters were holding up Manchester as a shining example to South Wales, and I felt that it served better as a warning). But I wasn't assuming either of those things. If the Windsor Link had not been built, few trains from the north west would have used the Castlefield corridor, and I think Altrincham local services generally ran to Piccadilly or Oxford Rd rather than Central.

Oxford Road was a both-ways terminus, essentially.

 

[Llanigraham]

Street running does not mean trams act like any other road vehicles. The amount of shared street running actually used by state-of-the-art tram systems is relatively small. A street-running metro system through the suburbs would be deliberately designed to be fast as well as serving the population well. Look at how Metrolink serves Wythenshawe.

And again!
Have you actually looked at a map of Cardiff? If so can you please tell me exactly what roads in the City Centre you think are suitable for joint use and how there will NOT be an increase in congestion? How do you intend to cross the river?
And why are you still mentioning Manchester? It has no relevance!

 

[Gareth Marston]

And again!
Have you actually looked at a map of Cardiff? If so can you please tell me exactly what roads in the City Centre you think are suitable for joint use and how there will NOT be an increase in congestion? How do you intend to cross the river?
And why are you still mentioning Manchester? It has no relevance!

He hasn't a clue Graham and wont face up to the fact that several of us have rumbled him long ago.