Someone gave a false name & address. Any help very very welcome!!

[MummaBug]

Hi
I want to ask if anyone has any advice for me please?

I will try to keep it brief.

My young sisters partner has recieved a court summons for a penalty fine.
He has not travelled without buying a ticket, and his name and address have been given by someone else.
He contacted the police, they obviously were not interested.
Anyway, he didn't know anything about any of this until a court summons has landed on his door mat. The court date is in a few weeks. He has had no prior warning or any chance to try and sort this out.

My sister tried to contact the railway company to ask for some advice, but all she got was some woman who was very unhelpful and very rude.

Is there any advice anyone can give me regarding this?
Is there any way to stop this going to court?

Any advice is very welcome!!
Thank you so much

 

[AlterEgo]

Did he ask the TOC what evidence or proof they had that the person on the train was "him"?

 

[najaB]

My young sisters partner has recieved a court summons for a penalty fine.
He has not travelled without buying a ticket, and his name and address have been given by someone else.

He needs to write to the TOC and the Court stating that he is not the person they are looking for. It is up to them to prove that he's guilty, not for him to prove he is innocent.

Now for the crucial question: is he innocent?

 

[Townsend Hook]

Since there seems to invariably be some postal communication between the TOC and alleged fare evader well before any legal action, it does seem odd that the court summons supposedly came totally out of the blue.

 

[najaB]

Since there seems to invariably be some postal communication between the TOC and alleged fare evader well before any legal action, it does seem odd that the court summons supposedly came totally out of the blue.

It wouldn't be the first time it's happened though.

 

[MummaBug]

Hi thank you for the reply.

No he has not done anything yet. The summons arrived yesterday, he went straight to the police, and my sister tried to speak to the train company. Neither of which got us anywhere.

Do you suggest we contact the train company and ask them what evidence they have that it was him?

My sister and him (both very young, and have far too much faith in people and the system) seem to think that it will all be fine, they can go to court and say it wasn't him and the court will say oh sorry, off you go!

I just want to know what, if anything, we can do to try and stop this before it goes to court.

Thanks again x

 

[MummaBug]

Yes I understand people being dubious about whether or not he is innocent and whether or not he did actually have other letters regarding this, but I can assure you this was the first he has heard of any of this.

 

[najaB]

My sister and him (both very young, and have far too much faith in people and the system) seem to think that it will all be fine, they can go to court and say it wasn't him and the court will say oh sorry, off you go!

I just want to know what, if anything, we can do to try and stop this before it goes to court.

If it truly wasn't him then he needs to write to both the TOC and the Court stating that he is not the person who was stopped on the day.

 

[MummaBug]

najaB, thank you. I will pass this information onto him.
I just needed to find out where we are meant to start with this whole mess!
I appreciate your help, thank you x

 

[ainsworth74]

Whilst it is up to the TOC to prove him guilty it would certainly help if he could prove that he wasn't the one travelling. For instance was he at work at the time of the alleged offence? Did he buy anything from shop (with a receipt/debit on his bank statement) that was long way away from the train he supposedly traveled on?

 

[robbeech]

Additionally, have a think who might be guilty.

I feel it would be unlikely (but likely not unheard of) that someone would pluck a name and address out of thin air and it be valid. Is there someone who is likely to have given his name and address instead of their own for whatever reason? Someone they don't like, or someone they know who thinks they might be able to get away with it if they use a false name of someone they know. They might not have done it in a malicious way, maybe just trying to get out of trouble and it isn't personal.

The TOC, and the court will want to know things like this if you think there is anything you can tell them.

As for your sisters partner being innocent. I wasn't there, and neither were you. I think it would be silly to try and make something up so i see no reason to doubt them, and neither should you but things like that WILL happen fairly frequently.

Try to find out as much information about the offense as you can. Dates, and times, and of course location aswell as what the offense actually is. Is it travelling without a ticket? the wrong ticket? travelling in the wrong part of the train? It might be easy to work out and say "But he was at the beach that day and we went to the nags head in the evening, i think he had Scampi*" to completely rule out any possibility of this going the wrong way.



*Maybe hold off on too much detail.

Rob

Edit : Ainsworth beat me to it on a couple of points.

 

[Elwyn]

It’s true that it’s up to the prosecution to prove their case. But you also need to think tactically here to ensure that nothing goes wrong. There’s no harm in having a good defence ready. Indeed that may avoid the need for a court case at all which is bound to be a less stressful resolution.

The summons presumably states the date, time and location of the alleged offence. Where was your sister’s partner at that precise time? Is there any person, or other evidence to confirm that? If so, I’d gather that evidence, urgently.

As a simple example, if the offence was supposed to have happened at say 2pm on Wednesday at Watford station, but your sister’s partner can show that he/she was at work in Brighton at that exact time, and has 2 independent witnesses willing to come to court to confirm it, plus perhaps some electronic evidence eg proof of a work pass swiped into the building (but not out again) before 2pm, then most prosecutors and courts would give that evidence a lot of weight.

Turning up at court and just saying “it wasn’t me” on its own may not be sufficient. It’s also essential to tell the court the truth. Perjury is far more serious than travelling without a valid ticket.

 

[ainsworth74]

Indeed that may avoid the need for a court case at all which is bound to be a less stressful resolution.

That's what I'm thinking. If he can show clearly that it's impossible for him to have been the person then the TOC will be far more likely to call things off before the court hearing.

 

[MummaBug]

Thank you for the replies

Yes I must admit I did say to him you probably want to get yourself some new friends, because someone has got him into a lot of trouble. Maliciously or not.

I have just spoken to my sister, she is bringing the letter to show me over the weekend , so I will be able to see all the details etc and I can try and find out where exactly he was when this happened.
Like you have said I'm hoping that it's at a time and in a place we can prove it couldn't have been him. But I'm pretty sure that Sod's law will intervene, knowing our luck right now!

So once I've seen the letter and all the details, we need to write to the court and the train company explaining that he is innocent, was not stopped for not having a valid ticket or whatever the fine was for, someone has falsely given his name and address. And that he has had no knowledge of this incident until a court summons has arrived. Is that right? Sorry I just want to get it right.
Is there anything else we should include? Obviously will include any proof he wasn't there.
Should I ask if we can stop it going to court?
Don't want to say the wrong thing.

 

[najaB]

So once I've seen the letter and all the details, we need to write to the court and the train company explaining that he is innocent, was not stopped for not having a valid ticket or whatever the fine was for, someone has falsely given his name and address. And that he has had no knowledge of this incident until a court summons has arrived. Is that right?

Pretty much, yes.

 

[MummaBug]

Thank you x

 

[lvlarky_130y]

Has anything from the train company been seen before this court summons landed on the doormat? There must have been some form of communication between the time of the alleged incident and the court summons letter. Where have these letters been going?

 

[trainmania100]

Can they not check the on board cctv from where he was caught and see if its the same person?

 

[DaleCooper]

Can they not check the on board cctv from where he was caught and see if its the same person?

All this reliance on cctv, it's highly unlikely that the recording (if it ever existed) is still available as some considerable time must have elapsed for things to get to this stage, however the TOC may well have a written description of the offender.

 

[Master29]

I think things like people giving false names and addresses being unlikely and pointing accusatory fingers at the OP`s sisters boyfriend aren`t very helpful to the OP at the moment. It is up to the TOC`s to prove his guilt not him to prove his innocence, at the moment, anyway.

 

[MummaBug]

Whilst I do appreciate people being dubious of his innocence and not believing there has been no communication prior to the court summons, i haven't really come on here for that to be questioned. I'm not asking for him to be judged by you, I'm merely asking for advice on this situation.
He did not travel without a ticket, and he was not stopped and fined, or whatever happened.
He has not received any communication prior to the court summons, so am only asking for some advice on this. I am seeing them both tomorrow to sort the letters out and see what we can do. We have had to wait until now as he has been away.
I very much appreciate the help and advice offered and I will be using it, thank you all for your help.

 

[lvlarky_130y]

Whilst I do appreciate people being dubious of his innocence and not believing there has been no communication prior to the court summons, i haven't really come on here for that to be questioned. I'm not asking for him to be judged by you, I'm merely asking for advice on this situation.
He did not travel without a ticket, and he was not stopped and fined, or whatever happened.
He has not received any communication prior to the court summons, so am only asking for some advice on this. I am seeing them both tomorrow to sort the letters out and see what we can do. We have had to wait until now as he has been away.
I very much appreciate the help and advice offered and I will be using it, thank you all for your help.

I wasn't questioning his innocence. I was suggesting a line of enquiry you could take with the TOC. If I was in this situation, hadn't received any letters at all, then out of the blue receive court papers, my first port of call would be a recorded letter to the TOC and court to that effect. Along with the other good advice provided, I'd be asking them to check their records to find out where the letters have been going and how it can go from no correspondence straight to court action.

There are several bits of communication that are sent from TOC's to the person implicated before court action is taken. I would think that the court papers are sent to the same address as the TOC communication - seems logical that this info is handed across? So the question to ask and find out is where the bust has been in the communication chain.

 

[najaB]

There are several bits of communication that are sent from TOC's to the person implicated before court action is taken. I would think that the court papers are sent to the same address as the TOC communication - seems logical that this info is handed across?

Logical, but not necessarily true. It isn't unknown that the first that someone knows about this type of issue is when the arrestment of earnings order hits them.

I have no reason to doubt that the OP is being earnest.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

MummaBug, I'm sorry to say that the advice I'm quoting here is misleading :

I . . . to find out where the letters have been going and how it can go from no correspondence straight to court action.

There are several bits of communication that are sent from TOC's to the person implicated before court action is taken. . . .

There is absolutely no requirement for a Railway Company's investigating officers or any Prosecutor to correspond with an accused person. Where the evidence gathered at the time of the incident satisfies the 'full code test' for a Prosecution, then any additional correspondence would be a pointless waste of resources.

Having said that, there is active encouragement for parties to attempt alternative dispute resolutions (ADR) in civil matters, and we seem to be seeing a trend in the same direction in private Criminal Prosecutions. But there is no presumption of correspondence between obtaining evidence of a crime and Summonsing the accused.

 

[DaveHarries]

Hi
I want to ask if anyone has any advice for me please?

I will try to keep it brief.

My young sisters partner has recieved a court summons for a penalty fine.
He has not travelled without buying a ticket, and his name and address have been given by someone else.
He contacted the police, they obviously were not interested.
Anyway, he didn't know anything about any of this until a court summons has landed on his door mat. The court date is in a few weeks. He has had no prior warning or any chance to try and sort this out.

My sister tried to contact the railway company to ask for some advice, but all she got was some woman who was very unhelpful and very rude.

Is there any advice anyone can give me regarding this?
Is there any way to stop this going to court?

Any advice is very welcome!!
Thank you so much

Hi MB,

A thought crosses my mind here: which station was the alleged infringement at and does it have CCTV? If the station does have CCTV and an image can be obtained that gives a view of the person who dodged the fare then it could be compared to see if the person in the image is your sister's partner or not.

If the station does have CCTV then it could be worth trying to find out from the ToC as to who is responsible for monitoring it: some stations will have signage up advising who monitors the cameras but you can ask the opco if not.

Good luck.
Dave

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . which station was the alleged infringement at and does it have CCTV? If the station does have CCTV and an image can be obtained that gives a view of the person who dodged the fare then it could be compared to see if the person in the image is your sister's partner or not.

. . . .

See the above response to an identical suggestion.

 

[DaleCooper]

See the above response to an identical suggestion.

This one:

All this reliance on cctv, it's highly unlikely that the recording (if it ever existed) is still available as some considerable time must have elapsed for things to get to this stage, however the TOC may well have a written description of the offender.

 

[lvlarky_130y]

MummaBug, I'm sorry to say that the advice I'm quoting here is misleading :There is absolutely no requirement for a Railway Company's investigating officers or any Prosecutor to correspond with an accused person. Where the evidence gathered at the time of the incident satisfies the 'full code test' for a Prosecution, then any additional correspondence would be a pointless waste of resources.

Having said that, there is active encouragement for parties to attempt alternative dispute resolutions (ADR) in civil matters, and we seem to be seeing a trend in the same direction in private Criminal Prosecutions. But there is no presumption of correspondence between obtaining evidence of a crime and Summonsing the accused.

In which case, it might be wise to assume that this offence has gone straight to court. The OP should therefore concentrate their efforts on finding out where her sisters partner was on the day in question and proving their innocence from this perspective.

 

[ainsworth74]

In which case, it might be wise to assume that this offence has gone straight to court. The OP should therefore concentrate their efforts on finding out where her sisters partner was on the day in question and proving their innocence from this perspective.

The TOC can happily withdraw the prosecution at any stage. It is not unheard of for these things to be called off moments before the hearing is due to begin. It is therefore still worthwhile trying to communicate with the TOC in question as it would be preferable all round for this matter to be resolved prior to the court hearing.

Also you don't prove innocence, the partner is innocent until the TOC prove them guilty but providing evidence which can undermine/defeat the TOCs evidence of guilt is the aim of the game.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

<snip>

Turning up at court and just saying “it wasn’t me” on its own may not be sufficient. It’s also essential to tell the court the truth. Perjury is far more serious than travelling without a valid ticket.

or they will think he took legal advice from Shaggy and Craig David ...