Some questions about new Southern timetable

[Andy1673]

Hi
RTT has no obvious answers so I have questions about new weekdays Southern timetable
ECS 5F16 Victoria 10:26 to Streatham Hill shed (8 car) - what forming off that later? 5F51 off Streatham Hill shed to Victoria of the late timetable no longer runs.

1T98 Victoria 04:35 to Gatwick Airport (4 car) - off what this one formed?
1L06 Victoria 06:20 to East Grinstead - is that service formed of 8 or 12 carriages and if 12 off what rear portion formed of?

2B49 Epsom Downs 22:41 to Victoria (8 car) forms 5F50 Victoria 00:38 to Streatham Hill shed
5L05 Stretham Hill shed 05:40 to Victoria (8 car) forms 1L06 Victoria 06:20 to East Grinstead
But there is no unit to form 1T98 and there is no unit to form the rear portion of 1L06 if it`s a 12 carriages service

Thanks in advance for answers )

 

[JonathanH]

Isn't the answer that 1T98 is 4-car and formed off the last arrival from Reigate (1R69 2304 Reigate to London Victoria). The subsequent arrival from Eastbourne goes on top and goes to East Croydon (2N80 0015 London Victoria to East Croydon), leaving a unit overnight at Victoria.

The unit off 1T98 then works a 4-car Gatwick portion of a Gatwick / Reigate service to Victoria (1T83 0552 Gatwick Airport to Redhill).

 

[Andy1673]

Isn't the answer that 1T98 is 4-car and formed off the last arrival from Reigate (1R69 2304 Reigate to London Victoria). The subsequent arrival from Eastbourne goes on top and goes to East Croydon (2N80 0015 London Victoria to East Croydon), leaving a unit overnight at Victoria.

The unit off 1T98 then works a 4-car Gatwick portion of a Gatwick / Reigate service to Victoria (1T83 0552 Gatwick Airport to Redhill).

1R69 (4) and 1F71 (8) both should sit overnight at Victoria and form 1L04 to East Grinstead (12)
2N80 formed off the front portion of 2F67 London Bridge to Victoria; rear portion forms 2S72

 

[JonathanH]

1R69 (4) and 1F71 (8) both should sit overnight at Victoria and form 1L04 to East Grinstead (12)
2N80 formed off the front portion of 2F67 London Bridge to Victoria; rear portion forms 2S72

Ah, OK, so what forms 1T98, which must also be at Victoria overnight?

 

[Andy1673]

Ah, OK, so what forms 1T98, which must also be at Victoria overnight?

That`s the question ))) as what forms the third unit for 1L06 )))

 

[JonathanH]

While we are on questions about the Southern timetable, where does the third unit off Redhill to Tonbridge services find a use in the new timetable, now that only two are allocated?

 

[Horizon22]

Ah, OK, so what forms 1T98, which must also be at Victoria overnight?

This is the last arrival in P17, and 1T98 is formed in P17 and there appears to be no corresponding ECS move in between arrival/departure.

Realtime Trains | 1C99 2314 Horsham to London Victoria | 10/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 1C99 2314 departure from Horsham to London Victoria on 10/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

This is the last arrival in P17, and 1T98 is formed in P17 and there appears to be no corresponding ECS move in between arrival/departure.

Realtime Trains | 1C99 2314 Horsham to London Victoria | 10/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 1C99 2314 departure from Horsham to London Victoria on 10/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That is Sunday into Monday. Monday into Tuesday doesn't have a corresponding late arrival from Horsham.

 

[PGAT]

While we are on questions about the Southern timetable, where does the third unit off Redhill to Tonbridge services find a use in the new timetable, now that only two are allocated?

I don't believe it's been allocated to anything else

 

[Horizon22]

That is Sunday into Monday. Monday into Tuesday doesn't have a corresponding late arrival from Horsham.

Okay well if we go off the timetable:

2B49 forms 1L04 (both P18) https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P17270/2023-12-11/detailed
1R69 must join with (or pemissive working) 1F71 and then also split for 2N80 and 1T98.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't believe it's been allocated to anything else

Perhaps it covers the plug / information display work when that gets to the 377/3 fleet. Can't be that far away.

 

[Andy1673]

Okay well if we go off the timetable:

2B49 forms 1L04 (both P18) https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P17270/2023-12-11/detailed
1R69 must join with (or pemissive working) 1F71 and then also split for 2N80 and 1T98.

This is altered version of timetable applicable on certain days only. My question was related on long-termed timetable

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2023 ==

While we are on questions about the Southern timetable, where does the third unit off Redhill to Tonbridge services find a use in the new timetable, now that only two are allocated?

yeah ) only two units - one unit works all day and another goes to Brighton Lovers Walk after midday and then another comes off Brighton instead

 

[PGAT]

Perhaps it covers the plug / information display work when that gets to the 377/3 fleet. Can't be that far away.

Maybe, although I would have expected the Redhill - Tonbridge cuts to come in June 2024, since the 377/1s haven't all been refurbished yet and I reckon they will complete the 377/2s before moving onto the 377/3s

 

[Horizon22]

This is altered version of timetable applicable on certain days only. My question was related on long-termed timetable

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2023 ==


yeah ) only two units - one unit works all day and another goes to Brighton Lovers Walk after midday and then another comes off Brighton instead

It might be that it is different each day of the week, as late nights can often be at London terminals.

 

[JonathanH]

This seems to be where things are at midnight this morning.

[Screenshot from signalling diagram shows 2I69 arrival to form a departure at 0541, 2B49 arrival to form 2N80 0012 London Victoria to East Croydon, 2F69 to form 5B70, 1U37 to form a departure at 0430, 1R65 to from 1T00 0008 London Victoria to Gatwick Airport, 1U45 to form 5D45, 1A69 to form a departure at 0532 and the VSOE stock in platform 19]

and at 0030

[Screenshot from signalling diagram shows 2I69 arrival to form a departure at 0541, 1L73 arrival to form 5L73, 2F69 to form 5B70, 2I99 to form a departure at 0641, 1A97 to form a departure at 0550, 1U37 to form a departure at 0430, 1U45 to form 5D45, 1C99 to form a departure at 0435, 1A69 to form a departure at 0532 and the VSOE stock in platform 19 due to a possession on the line to Stewarts Lane depot]

 

[louis97]

I don't believe it's been allocated to anything else

There is still 25 377/3 diagrams, the unit released is now utilised on the south coast.

 

[JonathanH]

There is still 25 377/3 diagrams, the unit released is now utilised on the south coast.

So is it now 14 377/3s on Tulse Hill, 9 on the South Coast and 2 on Redhill to Tonbridge, with a swap of South Coast / Tonbridge units during the day?

There seems to be a 4-car units on one of the Tulse Hill workings today.

 

[PGAT]

Is anyone aware of which Horsham/Dorking services have been lengthened? It says on Southern's website that they will be lengthened from today but I haven't seen any longer trains along the route

 

[louis97]

So is it now 14 377/3s on Tulse Hill, 9 on the South Coast and 2 on Redhill to Tonbridge, with a swap of South Coast / Tonbridge units during the day?

There seems to be a 4-car units on one of the Tulse Hill workings today.

Previously there was 4 on Redhill to Tonbridge, 2x starting at Tonbridge along with 1x starting Selhurst and 1x swap unit from Lovers Walk. This left 14 in London and 7 on the South Coast. Now it is 3 on Redhill to Tonbridge, 1x starting Tonbridge along with 1x starting Selhurst and 1x swap unit from Lovers Walk, 14 continue to operate in London and now 8 on the South Coast.

Is anyone aware of which Horsham/Dorking services have been lengthened? It says on Southern's website that they will be lengthened from today but I haven't seen any longer trains along the route

The all day lengthening is only on Saturdays, a couple of circuits are now 10 vice 5. Although I think most of these were already put into the LTP before the actual timetable change. There is an out and back trip in the morning strengthened on a weekday 0641 Victoria to Horsham and 0817 Horsham to Victoria are now 8 vice 5.

 

[PGAT]

The all day lengthening is only on Saturdays, a couple of circuits are now 10 vice 5. Although I think most of these were already put into the LTP before the actual timetable change. There is an out and back trip in the morning strengthened on a weekday 0641 Victoria to Horsham and 0817 Horsham to Victoria are now 8 vice 5.

Shame, the 1541 and 1911 out of Victoria could have really used a boost Mon-Fri

 

[Andy1673]

There is still 25 377/3 diagrams, the unit released is now utilised on the south coast.

This is Brighton to Hove shuttle with some peak extension to West Worthing )))

 

[JonathanH]

Now it is 3 on Redhill to Tonbridge

It seems somewhat disingenuous (not on your part) for Southern to consider that the cost of three leasing 377/3s is registered against the Redhill to Tonbridge line when only two are in operation at any one time, and the service on offer could be provided by just two units. I hope it isn't actually accounted for that way.

I appreciate that stabling one at Tonbridge overnight may be part of the cause for the need for an afternoon swap over.

 

[Minstral25]

Previously there was 4 on Redhill to Tonbridge, 2x starting at Tonbridge along with 1x starting Selhurst and 1x swap unit from Lovers Walk. This left 14 in London and 7 on the South Coast. Now it is 3 on Redhill to Tonbridge, 1x starting Tonbridge along with 1x starting Selhurst and 1x swap unit from Lovers Walk, 14 continue to operate in London and now 8 on the South Coast.

Think it is a bit much to describe a mid working day unit swap as two units on the line. Redhill - Tonbridge was 3 units timetable in operation and is now just 2 units timetable. Cuts here are awful for regular passengers.

So does that mean in reality Southern have removed a diagram without putting it back.

 

[louis97]

Think it is a bit much to describe a mid working day unit swap as two units on the line. Redhill - Tonbridge was 3 units timetable in operation and is now just 2 units timetable. Cuts here are awful for regular passengers.

So does that mean in reality Southern have removed a diagram without putting it back.

The line has dropped from 28 trains a day in each direction to 24. The hourly service during the daytime is retimed, but remains. However the peak timetable has been amended with there no longer being a half hourly peak service, instead the timetable is a little uneven at times. The units involved in the swap do have other work on the rest of their diagram, so see them more as a South Coast/Redhill-Tonbridge unit if that helps you get your head around it better.

It seems somewhat disingenuous (not on your part) for Southern to consider that the cost of three leasing 377/3s is registered against the Redhill to Tonbridge line when only two are in operation at any one time, and the service on offer could be provided by just two units. I hope it isn't actually accounted for that way.

I'm not sure it quite so black and white as that, as the units involved in the swap (I believe) have work on the West Coastway on the rest of the diagram, along with also ensuring the units can cycle between Selhurst and Lovers Walk depots.

 

[JonathanH]

Following up last night's midnight snapshot at Victoria, tonight shows

[Screenshot shows 2B53 to work 1T00 0008 London Victoria to Gatwick Airport, stock off 1R69 to go out at 0541, and stock off 2B49 to go out at 0550]

 

[Minstral25]

The line has dropped from 28 trains a day in each direction to 24. The hourly service during the daytime is retimed, but remains. However the peak timetable has been amended with there no longer being a half hourly peak service, instead the timetable is a little uneven at times. The units involved in the swap do have other work on the rest of their diagram, so see them more as a South Coast/Redhill-Tonbridge unit if that helps you get your head around it better.

It is more to do with connections from London being badly spaced than the number of services. Uneven on poor connections is a nightmare for the commuters to London off the line.

 

[LA50041]

Hi
RTT has no obvious answers so I have questions about new weekdays Southern timetable
ECS 5F16 Victoria 10:26 to Streatham Hill shed (8 car) - what forming off that later? 5F51 off Streatham Hill shed to Victoria of the late timetable no longer runs.

1T98 Victoria 04:35 to Gatwick Airport (4 car) - off what this one formed?
1L06 Victoria 06:20 to East Grinstead - is that service formed of 8 or 12 carriages and if 12 off what rear portion formed of?

2B49 Epsom Downs 22:41 to Victoria (8 car) forms 5F50 Victoria 00:38 to Streatham Hill shed
5L05 Stretham Hill shed 05:40 to Victoria (8 car) forms 1L06 Victoria 06:20 to East Grinstead
But there is no unit to form 1T98 and there is no unit to form the rear portion of 1L06 if it`s a 12 carriages service

Thanks in advance for answers )

5F16 berths at Streatham Hill Shed for 5L05 05+40 the next day
1T98 is booked LTP to be formed from the FP of 2B49 from Epsom Downs
5F50 to Streatham Hill is a 4 car only from the RP of 2B49 and forms the FP of 5L05
1L06 is booked as a 12 car and is formed by a 12 car from Streatham Hill Shed (5L05)

This assumes there are no STP amendments
Hope this Helps

 

[nw1]

It is more to do with connections from London being badly spaced than the number of services. Uneven on poor connections is a nightmare for the commuters to London off the line.

I'm not a local but it does seem a bit crazy to bin off a regular-interval half-hourly peak service, as appears to have happened here.
Particularly as for a good number of years the line had regular through services to London.

Is there no longer much demand for commuting on this line post-Covid? Or perhaps it's just more DFT-instigated cuts.

 

[Andy1673]

5F16 berths at Streatham Hill Shed for 5L05 05+40 the next day
1T98 is booked LTP to be formed from the FP of 2B49 from Epsom Downs
5F50 to Streatham Hill is a 4 car only from the RP of 2B49 and forms the FP of 5L05
1L06 is booked as a 12 car and is formed by a 12 car from Streatham Hill Shed (5L05)

This assumes there are no STP amendments
Hope this Helps

That`s great! Thank you so much!!!
Likely Southern returns to its two or three years ago practice to hold the 8-car formation in the Streatham Hill Shed almost all day )))

 

[JonathanH]

Is there no longer much demand for commuting on this line post-Covid? Or perhaps it's just more DFT-instigated cuts.

The situation is that there is more demand on the Coastway than there is on the Redhill to Tonbridge line, and given the running time of 30ish minutes between Redhill and Tonbridge, a slightly better than hourly service can be maintained in the peaks using two units, but not a half hourly one.