Some people are gay...

[theblackwatch]

Ermmmm.... *runs away*

Well in that case, I hope he doesn't read this forum!

 

[Coxster]

"I'm bald. Get over it!!"

Well I didn't like to say anything at the time, but now you come to mention it...



Sorry - back on topic

 

[Nym]

Well in that case, I hope he doesn't read this forum!

he eyes em up more than I do! and other things that I won't go into...

 

[djw1981]

Stonewall want it to cause controversy and such like because like most militant groups they want the discussion so they can get media interviews, thus gaining much more exposure than it would otherwise. they rely on the shock factor - cf the arresting of Mugabe the other year.

It is a legal lifestyle choice, which means that it should be accepted as a part of life, but some people can say it is wrong, like others say divorce is wrong. They are entitled to their views and the moral code by which they live, and they have as much right to advocate their code, as those who push for increased rights / equal rights for same-*** couples do. Both sides need to recognise that the other side have a right to their lifestyle and opinions, however that does not mean they have to stop trying to convince the other side of the merit of their lifestyle and opinions.

And before anyone starts on the genetics argument, it is not proven and fits no common pattern of inheritence.

On a side note, 15% of UK population says they are homosexual or bisexual (MSM), but 20% of men have had *** with another man. Thus illustrating the fluid nature of sexuality during one lifetime.

 

[Metroland]

Oh come on, it's pretty tough choice I would have thought 'choosing' to be gay, what with all the ignorant bigots about. Homosexuality exists in the animal world more frequently than many people would imagine, so it's just as natural as eye colour, being left handed, having a certain skin colour, being intelligent, or creative, emotional or logical. It's just part of the rich tapestry of life. And by God wouldn't it be dull if we were all the same and agreed with each other on everything.

The real problem comes when people disagree and that turns into hate and violence. Nobody should ever be persecuted for things they cannot help, or for the beliefs they have unless they persecute the weak or young. Else we're all in trouble.

I really honestly cannot for the life of me understand people that get upset about gay people, or other racial groups and so on. I really cannot understand how it affects anyone else. It's just personal insecurity and a dislike of people that are not like oneself. And those sorts of people dislike anything or anybody, who are different from them in any way.

We know some religious groups get upset about some of these things, but there are a lot of things the bible preaches against. There aren’t many things that aren't sins, including gossip, debt, boasting, gambling, drinking, masturbation, and so on. Besides, I'd be religious myself, but I really wouldn't know which religion to pick, which one is right, if any? Those people should equally accept other people have alternative paths to take, if we are to accept their beliefs.

Quite clearly these posters are to raise awareness of gay persecution, rather to convince any one of the merits of a gay lifestyle.

I'm much more concerned about people that want to get 'in yer face' through crime or violence or people that preach hate. They are the real danger.

Following that there is debate about political ideology, and the things that could affect us, such as the great technological, security, health, welfare and environmental challenges, child poverty, terrorism, clean water, plenty of food, peace and so on. A couple of lesbians at it is well down the list. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I suspect some of the things they get up to in the privacy of their own home aren’t other peoples.

 

[O L Leigh]

He's proberbly either in denial, or faking camp to be popular, thats the anoying thing, camp is now stylish. Like I said BLODDY IRRITATING!

I don't believe you've ever met him, so I don't see how you can possibly make such a comment.

Incidentally, "camp" and "happy" or "outgoing" are not the same things.

one TN

 

[Nym]

Stonewall want it to cause controversy and such like because like most militant groups they want the discussion so they can get media interviews, thus gaining much more exposure than it would otherwise. they rely on the shock factor - cf the arresting of Mugabe the other year.

It is a legal lifestyle choice, which means that it should be accepted as a part of life, but some people can say it is wrong, like others say divorce is wrong. They are entitled to their views and the moral code by which they live, and they have as much right to advocate their code, as those who push for increased rights / equal rights for same-*** couples do. Both sides need to recognise that the other side have a right to their lifestyle and opinions, however that does not mean they have to stop trying to convince the other side of the merit of their lifestyle and opinions.

And before anyone starts on the genetics argument, it is not proven and fits no common pattern of inheritence.

On a side note, 15% of UK population says they are homosexual or bisexual (MSM), but 20% of men have had *** with another man. Thus illustrating the fluid nature of sexuality during one lifetime.

Lifestyle choice???

I never chose to be like this! God, or My pearents, or my upbringing, or whatever it is that decides these things, I'm not a theologist! All I ever used to want in my life was normality, but now I've realised theres no such thing and to stop making myself miserable to try and be accepted, and that if they have a problem, so be it.

By the way, anyone read the news this morning? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/7264122.stm

"And before anyone starts on the genetics argument, it is not proven and fits no common pattern of inheritence.":

How many times have you thought about your traits that you put down to genetics? I'll bet you that most of them have no pattern of inheritance, no-one knows how this stuff happens, and pepole need to be honest about their dad's and lifes first!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't believe you've ever met him, so I don't see how you can possibly make such a comment.

Incidentally, "camp" and "happy" or "outgoing" are not the same things.

one TN

The only problem I have is pepole faking being camp, and from what you've said thats how he comes across, if this isn't the case, I'll apologise for slandering him...

 

[Mojo]

No way is it a choice!

That's all I have to say on the matter

 

[Gizmogle]

No way is it a choice!

That's all I have to say on the matter

Agreed.

If it was, I think I'd definately choose to be straight. Just easier. No homophobia. There's a lack of gay in Buxton too lol.

 

[Nym]

No way is it a choice!

That's all I have to say on the matter

nice short version of what I just wrote, lol

 

[Brit456767]

Would be interesting if it was a choice.

That said, actions are choices, personalities are not.

 

[djw1981]

The problem is with the science. There is no pattern of concordance between twins, which is the basis for most genetic inheritance. There is also no gene allele which has been found in people who are homosexual which is not found in those who are not. Thus science tells me that there is no yet proven genetic link.

As for the nurture argument, that it is something in your upbringing, thats fine, but that comes down as nurture which can be overcome (that word being used in the psychological sense) meaning that adults can change the way they behave compared to that they adopted or were brought up to think / believe / do. Thus, in the psychological basis, they are not forced to do it, thus they have choice.

There are billions being spent searching the genome of the populations of cities all over the world looking for the interplay of genes which predisposes to behaviour types and personality types, but the brain is such a complicated organ, and sexuality such a spectrum characteristic, that finding what puts a person in one place on the spectrum is not going to be easy ever.

The anti-homosexuality argument of some right wing US groups is helped by the people who refer to homosexual experiences as a young person / student who them go on and marry and live heterosexual lives, implying to the media that it is a phase that people go through and will grow out of.

Lastly, and I am having a wry smile at people who suggest that living the life they do is not the easy choice - the same is true of being in any minority of any type sadly - bizarrely including the people who say homosexuality is 'the devil's work'. So you have something in common with them.

As for the equality argument, I think that the equality thing almost impossible to achieve. If you do it by law, and checking quota's, or positive discrimination then you build resentment in those who think they are a) being forced what to think, b) think they only got the job because they were in a minority or c) and discriminated against. With school education, it works better, but children get many of their moral viewpoints from parents and the adults around them, and if those views are intolerant, then the children will adopt the intolerance.

 

[Coxster]

Speaking of paintballed billboards, there's one on Waterloo Road as you turn left out the station and walk up to bus stop F. Yellow paint still all over the pavement below it. Must have been done overnight as it was not like it yesterday. Didn't really pay any attention as to what it was advertising as there was a bus ready and waiting.

Just to confirm that it is indeed one of the billboards previously mentioned, and since my last message it looks like it has been targeted again, now being a mixture of yellow, orange and blue paint on the red background.

 

[Metroland]

The problem is with the science. There is no pattern of concordance between twins, which is the basis for most genetic inheritance. There is also no gene allele which has been found in people who are homosexual which is not found in those who are not. Thus science tells me that there is no yet proven genetic link.

As for the nurture argument, that it is something in your upbringing, thats fine, but that comes down as nurture which can be overcome (that word being used in the psychological sense) meaning that adults can change the way they behave compared to that they adopted or were brought up to think / believe / do. Thus, in the psychological basis, they are not forced to do it, thus they have choice.

There are billions being spent searching the genome of the populations of cities all over the world looking for the interplay of genes which predisposes to behaviour types and personality types, but the brain is such a complicated organ, and sexuality such a spectrum characteristic, that finding what puts a person in one place on the spectrum is not going to be easy ever.

The anti-homosexuality argument of some right wing US groups is helped by the people who refer to homosexual experiences as a young person / student who them go on and marry and live heterosexual lives, implying to the media that it is a phase that people go through and will grow out of.

Lastly, and I am having a wry smile at people who suggest that living the life they do is not the easy choice - the same is true of being in any minority of any type sadly - bizarrely including the people who say homosexuality is 'the devil's work'. So you have something in common with them.

As for the equality argument, I think that the equality thing almost impossible to achieve. If you do it by law, and checking quota's, or positive discrimination then you build resentment in those who think they are a) being forced what to think, b) think they only got the job because they were in a minority or c) and discriminated against. With school education, it works better, but children get many of their moral viewpoints from parents and the adults around them, and if those views are intolerant, then the children will adopt the intolerance.

Well the science is indeed as yet inconclusive, but then we don’t really know how the brain fully functions, or the full role of DNA and hormones. For example, there is a link between exposure in the mother’s womb to the male hormone testosterone and the propensity for a female to have homosexual tendencies.

There must be some inheritance factor in the general population’s interests, talents, likes and dislikes. I certainly know which women I fancy, while some of that might well be nurture, some of it also has to be down to other factors. Men, have a certain amount of programming to find the curves of the female form attractive, for example. But how many times have you thought? They make a nice couple. In other words, their looks and personalities seem to suit each others. There are men’s interests, and female interests, which can develop from the way the brain actually functions.

Saying that a gay person can be ‘cured’, or a straight person turned gay, is rather like making someone marry someone else they consider the least attractive person in the room, and then some - Or making someone that is naturally good at art and not mathematics into a physicist. Some foods will make me physically ill, and I really don’t remember being persuaded that some root vegetables were a bad thing. Some people have natural allergies to certain foods. There’s no choice about it.

And even if it was nurture, is it actually a bad thing? I’m not convinced. Over breeding and exceeding the carrying capacity of territories, indeed the world is not a good move, despite what we are told by the Catholic Church. The people of Ethiopia have been doing it for years, and actually they’d be a lot better off having fewer children.

I certainly don’t buy the argument that saying ‘Gay people are the devils work’ is the same as being gay in terms of persecution. I might say, I don’t think people should own any more than 1 car, fly more than twice a year, wear fur coats, do media studies at university, watch Eastenders, buy cheap food for all sorts of good reasons. Most people who say, that gay people are the devil’s works don’t have good reasons, they just say it without thinking, based on their own prejudices. They just don’t like gay people, or black people, people who have ginger hair, or short people. They don't like the idea of gay *** (fair enough), so they don't like the person, even though they might be totally wonderful in other ways. There’s no logic behind it, mostly because they are not very rounded people. EVERYONE has a choice to keep their trap shut. They damn the whole person, through something that doesn't even affect them. I’m yet to be persuaded that picking on a minority group is a bright thing to do. It’s rather like picking on left handed people or men than fancy butch women. It doesn’t really affect me to any great degree whether people are left handed, or someone has just married a butch woman at the end of the street, even if I might find the idea of having *** with that person, or the thought of other people having *** a little less than savoury.

I think the evidence for 3 gay people above (Mojo, Gizmogle, Nym) is enough to say it isn’t a choice. I have gay friends, but don’t need to be gay to be convinced, because of the examples I have given above relating to other subjects.

 

[Nym]

I think somone's hit a nerve of rants, I only made one long one, I'll read all that when I'm sober, looks good at the minute though...

 

[332 > 444]

But then you look at Gok Wan or whatever his name is :?

I didnt think he was gay until someone told me, then i clocked how them girls are letting him freely feel up their breasts, they wouldnt let a straight man do that (why, i wonder?)

*waits for a "im black, get over it advert* - no wait, that will never happen!

 

[Mojo]

Prehaps because if noticed, anyone who makes a racist comment would be in quite serious trouble. Those who make homophobic comments very rarely get punished. Remember the police horse in Oxford? If the man had called it a racist term then he would be rightly dragged kicking & screaming into a Magistrates' court. Councils have a legal obligation to encourage race relations.

 

[Metroland]

I think hate speech/actions against gay and disabled people have been outlawed or about to be.

 

[Nym]

I think hate speech/actions against gay and disabled people have been outlawed or about to be. New laws have recently been passed for religion and well as race, ***, etc.

PS can someone take the auto *** off against the word beginning with s with 3 letters, it's really not rude.

No amounts of laws will change the attitudes of the popluation, there are still pepole that go out proper queer bashing intending to kill some of them... No amount of laws will stop them unless they all get arested and tied up on canal st. and us lot let loose on them...

 

[Metroland]

Well it's quite appalling we still have all this hate for groups of people based on nationality, ***, race, sexuality, but there we are. It's quite appalling that people so many people live on a dollar a day, have no clean water and all this crime, war and corruption and environmental degradation.

And we're told human ingenuity is unlimited and we can solve all the problems!

HAhahaha!

As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

George Orwell

 

[Nym]

I would try and quote some Oscar Wilde, but I only know his dirty quotes. So I'll go for Stephen Fry instead, he's a modern day Oscar Wilde, "If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people in the world?" Well, I wish I could live in blissful ignorance but I can't be a happy person, I usualy know everything going on around me, and what everyone is thinking, I know somone that can tell you somone's life story by the way the're walking... Anyway, I'm going on a bit again, I wish everyone in the world could all get along, but then the gun makers would be put out of work so it wouldn't be very fair on them would it?

In short, i like the direct action approach, sort it yourself. Because the police won't do anything!

 

[AlexS]

I don't think you'll change people's attitude's overnight. Especially not with legislation attempting to force them to change, which in fact is just more likely to make them resentful.

While things like the Bible still say it is wrong etc etc, uphill struggle is the case.

 

[Nym]

Lets make it kinda fun again anyway:

"Oh wo ist mein handich?" (In camp german voice)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think you'll change people's attitude's overnight. Especially not with legislation attempting to force them to change, which in fact is just more likely to make them resentful.

While things like the Bible still say it is wrong etc etc, uphill struggle is the case.

I tried and failed to make this fun!

The bible contains nothing that states that homosexuality is wrong or to be looked down on in any way. I don't know because I've not read all of it but I'm told it's a great story with loads of twists and turns, meaning it contridictes itself a lot. "My the lord spite man who sleep with another man" is from the days of sheparding, when you couldn't sleep on the job because all the sheep would leg it, in an agricutural era this made sense. But now that such texts are interprated by right wing city dwellers that don't know how food is made, or have never been outside the M25! They don't know what a farm is and their already extremist belifs are vented through christianity via this quote. So in essance, it's not the bible causinh this, it's the clergymen themselves. As for Islam, the Koran has nothing of the sorts in it either, because there is no urdu scripture for homosexuality, only sodimising rape, so rape of sodimy is not alowed, but you can't have it disalowed if the word doesn't exist, this is interpriatations and translations changing scripts to the whim of the interpritor again! I might invent my own religion that says that any religion that discriminates agaist anyone else, will be bombed, and because it's a religon I'll get away with it, if I instead started the bomb gaza campaign with no religion thats fine, but if I fight for god, I can kill as many pepole as I like! It's bloddy stupid!

So Don't blame the bible, the koran, the scrolls, the scriptures, no popular religion dis-alows homosexuality in it's scriptures, apart from Local BBC Radio Callers (Biggots Anomous)

 

[AlexS]

This is merely what I've heard - I've never had the dubious pleasure of sitting through reading the bible in either it's entirety or indeed bar a short few religious education (I bunked off 5 years worth or so) lessons at school.

 

[Nym]

This is merely what I've heard - I've never had the dubious pleasure of sitting through reading the bible in either it's entirety or indeed bar a short few religious education (I bunked off 5 years worth or so) lessons at school.

I went to RE, was fun to argue

You should read the bible, it's a fab story, I won't spoil the ending for you, lol

he dies

 

[Metroland]

I don't think you'll change people's attitude's overnight. Especially not with legislation attempting to force them to change, which in fact is just more likely to make them resentful.

While things like the Bible still say it is wrong etc etc, uphill struggle is the case.

I agree. I also think making it so hard you can't make jokes about religion etc is a bit dangerous, when humour is a good way to bring people together, long as it's done in good taste. Although some religions are rather more sensitive than others. ref: Danish Cartoons.

Interestingly, and perhaps not surprisingly, it's the religious groups that are objecting to anti-gay speech laws the most...Actually the bible says hardly anything about homosexuality for those that have not read it. It says far more about adulatory, and general bad behaviour.

Other religions have different takes on it, some extreme, others not so, and sometimes there is grey areas.

 

[djw1981]

The mainstream christian opposition comes from the fact that (as they see it) God said that *** was an act for a man and a woman who had been married in the sight of God.

Thus adulterers are disobeying that command as much as homosexuals, as are people who have one night stands, pay for *** etc. there is even a verse which says that the thought is as if committing the act.

The church used to have strong views on that - describing people as the "B@$t@rd son of...." meaning a child born out of wedlock, and refusing to marry divorcees and people who already had children. That attitude has changed recently.

In short, even if it is against modern christian interpretation of the Bible, it is no 'worse' than lying, which is expressly forbidden.

 

[Gizmogle]

I think these people need to get over it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world#Homosexuality_laws

I find it fanscinating how many countries only punish men for homosexuality.
Some countries give upto 25yrs in prison or even death for being gay!

 

[Metroland]

Or drunkenness, and many other things. For a complete list of bible sins, see here

http://w3school.com/Documents/Bible_Studies/Sin_list_part_6.htm

Here are some other sins:

ADULTERY
ACCEPTING A BRIBE
COMPLAINING ABOUT HARDSHIPS
FILTHY CONVERSATION
CRAFTINESS
FILTHY DREAMERS
DRUGS
GETTING DRUNK (DRUNKEN)
NOT FORGIVING OTHERS
GREEDINESS
IDOLS
HYPOCRITICAL
KILLING A MOTHER BIRD IN THE NEST
RICHES, SEEKING TO BE RICH
SELFISH AMBITION
*** OUTSIDE MARRIAGE (FORNICATION)
*** WITH A PROSTITUTE
TATTOOING
SWEARING
UNCLEANNESS

If you scan through the list it says far more about idleness and laziness than gay ***, yet, it's unfortunate that some people are transfixed by it.

 

[djw1981]

In some arab countries they don;t accept that women can have relationships with women because it is a concept they cannot understand. In some other cultures, menstruating women sleep in a different room to their husband while on their period because they are 'unclean'