Sold non-discounted ticket, refused refund/change

[jon0844]

Hope this is the right forum.

Today I decided, perhaps rather stupidly, to - for the first time in ages - buy a simple ticket from the ticket office instead of ordering online on the way to the station to get Nectar Points (or use EC's site if over £20-odd).

So, up I go to ask for a nice simple Hatfield to Welwyn Garden City ticket, single, with Gold Card.

Stupid me didn't check the price, so I handed over a £5 note and got my change and ticket. Very quick without anything being said by the lady.

Off I go, to the gateline, put it through and then as I go to put it in my ticket wallet noticed it had no GOLDC discount.

My train was in a few minutes, and there was a queue behind me, so I asked the gateline RPI if I could get it sorted at WGC. He said, sure. I was told, obviously, not to put the ticket through the gate at WGC.

So off I go, get my train, get to WGC, explain, get let out.

Got upstairs and queued up to be told that they couldn't do anything as how could he know I asked for the discount or actually showed the card?

Well, he had a point I suppose, but why would I not have done it? To make my life deliberately awkward? He could see I'd only just bought it 10 or so minutes before.

His solution was to go back to Hatfield. But I had a single ticket. I wasn't going back to Hatfield (by train anyway) and why should I buy another ticket? And indeed, a further ticket to come back when or if sorted? And I didn't have time to miss the train I got, let alone get two more trains.

So, the next option presented was to go back another day. Now if he didn't believe I definitely showed my card, I am not sure that going back next week will get me more of a result.

Now the discount is only 95p but I've sent an email to GTR anyway via their online form. No automated response to confirm it arrived, and for all I know it hasn't been set up properly yet.

What happens in these circumstances? I fortunately noticed the name of the lady at Hatfield because she wasn't someone I'd seen before and attracted my attention because she didn't say a word. I'd presented the money after asking for the ticket, so she didn't even need to say how much.

I do think she said 'next please' but otherwise, she was rather disinterested and obviously not paying attention. I always try and be polite and say 'hello, thanks, goodbye' etc so I don't think she was rude because of anything I said or did.

I feel I should pursue this despite it being a pathetic amount of money, out of principle and because this isn't a situation I'd really thought about much before - namely being accused of potentially lying about whether you asked for a discount.

 

[Abpj17]

Oh dear!

I've encountered enough confused booking staff to watch the cost of any gold card transactions like a hawk (the £1 for a kid single can't be bought online or at a TVM, so I invariably have to do at offices; similarly boundary extensions for Gatwick airport)

If no responses in a couple of days, email again, muttering something about their being welcome to check their cctv records to see if you presented your pass?

 

[Paule23]

That's a very long post for 95p!

Just send a letter with your ticket and a copy of your railcard, I'm sure a refund of 95p will be forthcoming.

 

[jon0844]

I do try and include every bit of detail in my posts! In terms of my usual hourly rate, I probably spent more than a quid writing it!

 

[yorkie]

That's a very long post for 95p!

Just send a letter with your ticket and a copy of your railcard, I'm sure a refund of 95p will be forthcoming.

That's not the point.

Some Train Companies prosecute customers over 10p

Someone else won't be our of pocket by pence but many pounds.

The system is heavily stacked against customers.

Change is needed.

 

[maniacmartin]

I think in the circumstances you describe its pretty obvious that you weren't trying to fiddle the system in any way. The ticket offices are even run by the same TOC.

I must say I'm a bit surprised as when I had a similar incident on that line I managed to get my ticket fixed with no hassle. (Due to touchscreen misalignment at Finsbury Park and me not paying attention, I bought a ticket to Letchworth instead of to Hatfield. Upon arrival at Hatfield, the clerk saw the time on the ticket, concluded I couldn't have had time to go to Letchworth, non-issued it with a refund to my card, and then sold me the correct ticket. The ticket had even been through two gatelines too).

 

[jon0844]

Don't get me started on the dodgy touchscreens, which if you report doesn't get fixed. I assume staff just think I'm some idiot that can't use them.

One of the machines at Hatfield is unusable to collect tickets as you'll take ages. It will sense your finger even without touching, not detect certain areas of the screen, detect ne touch as multiple touches (so hit A and it will enter AAA) and so on.

And months later, no fix.

I think people must struggle to even select a normal ticket, but presumably the way the software works hides the problem.

I am 99% certain there will be a diagnostic tool on the TVM to text and calibrate the screen, and so it would be dead easy to check and either re-calibrate, or more likely, replace it.

 

[ASharpe]

It's not just ticket clerks who fail to do railcard discounts when you ask.

Most of Northern's TVMs will also forget you selected a railcard discount if you then change the ticket type. The change ticket type button being below the railcard button doesn't help.

I noticed it had happened the other week and fortunately I had time to get a refund before setting off. But it left me wondering how many times I had been caught out by that before without realising.

 

[jon0844]

I normally check tickets. Sometimes I'll check my change too.

But for such a cheap ticket, and the need to get a train, I didn't. Obviously the one time you don't check...

It's unfortunate as I nearly always buy the ticket from a TVM (and know the sequence of presses that means I can buy very quickly - even though WGC isn't on the 'popular tickets' menu) and will probably try and do so from now on. So another chance to encourage people to keep staff in jobs is wasted, although perhaps the broken screens is a deliberate ploy by staff to protect their jobs?!

 

[Greenback]

Many, many years ago, before I knew as much as I know now, I didn't get a YP discount on a small fare that I bought on the train as I was travelling from an unstaffed station.

I didn't notice until I got off, and didn't do anything about it, despite being out about £1.30.

Nowadays, I'd agree with Yorkie that it's the principle and change is needed.

 

[jon0844]

To be honest, I am not going to waste loads more time. Writing an email isn't a big deal. Scanning my season ticket and emailing it isn't a massive problem either.

But I won't be posting any letters, as the cost of postage would make it even more pointless. I doubt I'd get anything more than the difference paid.

What's now more concerning is that you fill in the customer report form on the website (well actually a link given to me via their Twitter team) and despite saying it was sent successfully, I get nothing to acknowledge its receipt or any reference number. That implies that a lot of people writing to GTR won't get anything done.

 

[IanD]

That's a very long post for 95p!

Just send a letter with your ticket and a copy of your railcard, I'm sure a refund of 95p will be forthcoming.

It's not just 95p though is it, it's a 50% overcharge of the price of the ticket requested. Would you be saying this if it the OP had been charged £150 instead of £100?

 

[talldave]

Don't get me started on the dodgy touchscreens, which if you report doesn't get fixed. I assume staff just think I'm some idiot that can't use them.

One of the machines at Hatfield is unusable to collect tickets as you'll take ages. It will sense your finger even without touching, not detect certain areas of the screen, detect ne touch as multiple touches (so hit A and it will enter AAA) and so on.

And months later, no fix.

I think people must struggle to even select a normal ticket, but presumably the way the software works hides the problem.

I am 99% certain there will be a diagnostic tool on the TVM to text and calibrate the screen, and so it would be dead easy to check and either re-calibrate, or more likely, replace it.

You can imagine how p****d off I was yesterday at Gatwick trying 4 machines, each a couple of times, in order to try and get my booking reference recognised.

I suspect the problem is that nobody's responsible for this issue - so it doesn't get looked at. And because I'm a cynic, I believe that all train company employees are swanning around on free passes and hence never have to use their crappy touchscreens.

The bottom line is the train companies don't care, otherwise they'd fix the machines.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, I had similar troubles on the machines at Gatwick, but then noticed newer machines at the far end (facing you instead of along the side wall) and they seem to have newer capacitive touchscreens that respond near perfectly.

Next time, go for them and ignore the older machines completely.

I did of course mention this to the staff 'on the ground' and it's good to see that they went 'Yeah we'll look into it' and then did nothing. Would anyone expect otherwise?

Back in the days when I worked for a local authority, if a tenant came in and asked me something that wasn't 'my job' then I either told them who to speak to, or found out myself and called them back. I got into trouble because it 'wasn't my job' and 'let them find out for themselves' which included advice to just hang up the phone so they had to call back and speak to someone else - but ultimately, what works best for the council (or TOC) in the long term?

 

[talldave]

You don't get a choice of machine at Gatwick as you're in the one massive queue and just get shouted at to go to the next free machine!

Normally, of course, I don't go anywhere near those machines as I'm collecting pre-booked tickets - either from the "secret" machine in the other station entrance or from the two "collection only" machines near the ticket office.

I'm into London tomorrow so let's hope the booking reference system is working again!

 

[jon0844]

I was there late at night the time I needed to buy a ticket (and hadn't booked in advance) so there was a bit more freedom to choose my machine.

I chose poorly, which then meant moving to another machine and no doubt confusing others. Perhaps if a screen doesn't work, you're supposed to quit and return to the back of the queue and try again!!

 

[tony6499]

Why didn't you go back to the ticket office as soon as you noticed the mistake at the time ? It states to check your ticket, change etc at the time of paying so by delaying and going to another ticket office you left yourself open to hassle

 

[anme]

Why is there sympathy here for someone who didn't check their ticket, but not on another thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106047 ?

 

[bb21]

No reason. I would have said the same thing to the OP. Equally I have some sympathy for the OP in the other thread.

There is however a fundamental difference. In this thread, the OP is not at risk of prosecution, whereas in the other thread, the OP is, so it is important that we are not detracted by discussions about sympathy, etc, and focus on the central issue.

 

[anme]

Absolutely true, that's why I posted on this thread. I was just surprised there weren't more responses here telling the OP they should have checked their ticket before leaving the counter, so tough luck now. There's usually no shortage of people on this forum who seem to get their kicks from putting the boot in (pun intended, and not looking necessarily at the posters in this thread).

 

[jon0844]

Why didn't you go back to the ticket office as soon as you noticed the mistake at the time ? It states to check your ticket, change etc at the time of paying so by delaying and going to another ticket office you left yourself open to hassle

Because I asked at the gate line when I noticed and was told that sorting it at WGC was fine as I had a train to catch and didn't fancy a 20 minute wait. There was already quite a queue behind me.

Went back today and told it's too late, but that WGC could have done it. They should have sold the correct ticket and refunded the old one, so they apologised and gave me a form (freepost) to make a claim.

As said, my ticket was still valid so that's a major difference. I wasn't going to get hassled or run the risk of a PF or worse. Hence it being considered perfectly okay for me to travel and sort at the destination.

And by all accounts it would have been okay to do at WGC apparently.

 

[bb21]

Just one of those days I imagine.

I'm sure they will refund the difference once you submit the complaint.

 

[Paule23]

It's not just 95p though is it, it's a 50% overcharge of the price of the ticket requested. Would you be saying this if it the OP had been charged £150 instead of £100?

Well, yes. What else would you expect? Send in the heavy mob?

 

[yorkie]

Well, yes. What else would you expect? Send in the heavy mob?

I think there should be more equality for mistakes.

It's unfair that if one party makes a mistake, the other party can be deemed guilty of a criminally offence for that mistake and may have to spend a lot of time sorting out the mess, and in cases of overcharging, it can be so time consuming to resolve that it's cheaper to simply accept being out of pocket.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/4697212.stm

Earlier Simon Revell, for Northern Rail, said the prosecution for the 10p fare and £100 costs was justified.

"These 10ps add up and amount, in the last year for which there were figures, to £210m nationwide."

I wonder if Simon Revell would admit that the amounts passengers are overcharged adds up to £millions nationwide? If you include passengers paying a premium to have one ticket rather than multiple ones, the amount extra that customers are needlessly paying must be many £millions, and I suspect greater than the £210m that Simon Revell says the industry loses out on.

Just last night a forum member was overcharged by £2.20 by Northern, and someone else was incorrectly charged £20.60.

Compared to the powers available to the TOCs, we are powerless to do anything about it!

 

[IanD]

Well, yes. What else would you expect? Send in the heavy mob?

I just meant the bit about it being a lot of effort for only 95p - forgot to delete the rest of the post from the quote which is exactly what the OP should do.

 

[jon0844]

The (I believe) supervisor at Hatfield was particularly amazed and astonished that my request to sort things out at WGC had resulted in me being told that I might have not presented my card in the first place.

I suspect that had I ditched my plans, bought another ticket to return to Hatfield and spoken to the same lady again she'd have probably insisted she hadn't been shown a Gold Card. What then? Demand to pull CCTV and hope it picked it up?

While I doubt very much it will become something that will see me camped up outside Govia's offices with placards and demanding 'justice' while letting my personal life fall apart, before turning to drink and ending up on the street, I do think I'm going to pursue this for a while longer.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Why is there sympathy here for someone who didn't check their ticket, but not on another thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106047 ?

You'll probably find it's something along the lines of rail staff being deliberately evil and out for all they can get and all those who are 'caught out' by them are innocent victims who can do no wrong (even if the clerk did give them exactly what they asked for, no questions asked) and are immune from any agreements they make, whereas those who 'accidentally' buy child tickets instead of adult tickets from TVMs and are 'caught out' only have themselves to look at, or some guff like that.

I think there should be more equality for mistakes...

So we can name and shame all those passengers who make 'mistakes'?

....It's unfair that if one party makes a mistake, the other party can be deemed guilty of a criminally offence for that mistake and may have to spend a lot of time sorting out the mess, and in cases of overcharging,....

Of course in most cases, checking the ticket when issued saves bucket loads of time, for the passenger, the railway and the courts, and reduces the number of threads on here, but perhaps the latter is not ideal for you.

.... it can be so time consuming to resolve that it's cheaper to simply accept being out of pocket....

It could be the quick to resolve if an attempt is made at the point of sale, but the British as a whole are far better at moaning about something and putting it off, than actually doing anything about it.

....I wonder if Simon Revell would admit that the amounts passengers are overcharged adds up to £millions nationwide?....

Does it? Can you provide figures for that?

....If you include passengers paying a premium to have one ticket rather than multiple ones, the amount extra that customers are needlessly paying must be many £millions....

I wouldn't know, but it is possible for the passenger to request multiple tickets if that is what they want.

....Compared to the powers available to the TOCs, we are powerless to do anything about it!

Powerless to check a ticket at the time of issue? Where the clerk can explain the ticket if it is not understood? Powerless to ask the clerk to correct a mistake that they have made at that point? Really? Can TOCs now prosecute before any mistakes can be corrected?

 

[jon0844]

It could be the quick to resolve if an attempt is made at the point of sale, but the British as a whole are far better at moaning about something and putting it off, than actually doing anything about it.

I probably spotted the mistake within 90 seconds, so my fault was not checking when I got the ticket. Normally I do check, not so much the discount but rather the right destination.

I ended up late getting to where I needed to go because I had to go to the ticket office at WGC, but not as late as letting my train go at Hatfield to sort there. Now it turns out they could have sorted it at WGC, so I wasted time there AND the next day when I went back to Hatfield.

And if the other thread is the one about being sold a child ticket that wasn't requested, then I guess that if she'd issued the ticket as a child ticket then I doubt I'd have noticed straight away either. Nor if she'd given the wrong railcard discount. Probably not even if she'd done Welwyn North or Welham Green by mistake.

If the answer is that errors cannot be corrected afterwards under any circumstances, then fine - let's have that as a rule and enforce it each and every time. That would then mean you could all say 'tough **** mate, should have checked before you paid' but I expect that would introduce a whole range of problems. For one, it will slow down ticket sales considerably - especially when I guess that you'll no longer be able to get a refund on a ticket if you decided not to travel, because that's nothing to do with the railway.

 

[andrewkeith5]

There are so many people (most of whom seem to be employed by the railway) with such an amazingly bad attitude to customer service.

At what point will the railway admit that the customer cannot always be expected to be perfect? In this case, what was sold was not the same as what was asked for. Any customer should reasonably be able to expect that they are sold what they ask for, and that if they notice an issue it should be resolved.

If they fail to notice completely, then it can be considered a mistake - which is what penalty fares are for - the customer has to take some responsibility unless they are unable to (how is a blind person supposed to know the ticket they are being sold is the correct price, for example?). If, however, as in this case, the customer notices the mistake of the operator and proactively approaches a member of staff with the issue, then that should be corrected. That might mean an excess on the train, it might mean a refund at the destination ticket office - IMHO it should be possible to buy change of route excesses on the train if the customer realises they've made a mistake and approaches the guard, but hey-ho, you can't have everything.

Most importantly, it is immensely frustrating when I see blanket statements that are comprehensively anti-customer from railway staff when there is a perfectly reasonable situation that could have been resolved within a couple of minutes.

If rail staff (mostly those in the ticket office) can so often refuse to sell something because they don't know how/can't be bothered/don't think it should be sold/don't agree with it/don't like that the customer is asking for it is so acceptable (it clearly is because so little ever gets done about it), then it must be acceptable to allow mistakes to be corrected properly as soon as the customer notices, whether that is immediately after purchase, 90 seconds after purchase, or half an hour later at the destination (as long as its reasonable)

 

[bb21]

There are so many people (most of whom seem to be employed by the railway) with such an amazingly bad attitude to customer service.

These people exist in all industries and professions, not just the railway industry. It is only more pronounced because this is a railway forum.

At what point will the railway admit that the customer cannot always be expected to be perfect? In this case, what was sold was not the same as what was asked for. Any customer should reasonably be able to expect that they are sold what they ask for, and that if they notice an issue it should be resolved.

That I agree.

If they fail to notice completely, then it can be considered a mistake - which is what penalty fares are for - the customer has to take some responsibility unless they are unable to (how is a blind person supposed to know the ticket they are being sold is the correct price, for example?). If, however, as in this case, the customer notices the mistake of the operator and proactively approaches a member of staff with the issue, then that should be corrected. That might mean an excess on the train, it might mean a refund at the destination ticket office - IMHO it should be possible to buy change of route excesses on the train if the customer realises they've made a mistake and approaches the guard, but hey-ho, you can't have everything.

I don't know what a change of route excess has to do with this case, and for the record such an excess is available onboard should there be a guard.

I do agree however that the destination station in this case should have sorted out this problem.