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So where are we with electification?

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YorkshireBear

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I suspect the government understandably finally lost faith in network rail and its underperforming suppliers.
Why things cost more than anywhere else and take so long is a n on going mystery no one seems able to crack.
Watching a youtube of a track renewal train on German railways there other day while the other line remained open was certainly food for thought.
K

It is a mystery i have explain many many times in all the electrification threads. The government has no commitment to long term funding and turns the tap on and off quickly. Allowing no maturity of the sector. They fancy it, fund it, doesn't go well, lessons learned, starting to bring costs down improve construction times, colleges open to train engineers and workers, then pull the plug.

Other countries do not do this. Probably our fault as a country for being obsessed with taxes, immigration and the EU and never actually holding the government to account for infrastructure planning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It (working on one line) used to be done like that here until the H&S desk jockeys were allowed to take control.

Ahhh the H&S desk jockeys. These made up people that get brought out when people want to blame something. There is no such thing. You act as if keeping people safe and alive is a bad thing, bet you would soon pipe up if something went wrong because no one was thinking and a loved one died.

Nothing gets done because people believe H&S stops them. They never actually ask, the majority of the answer is usually, you can as long as you have suitable controls. Which we always do. But because people automatically take your opinion it spreads. And suddenly H&S is blamed for everything despite it not getting involved. People who cannot be bothered to write risk assessments then blame H&S. When actually the reason is they couldn't be bothered to write a RA. A very easy and short task for most activities.

Then again, i do quite a lot of safety work and risk assessments. Some might consider me to be informed about the subject so i think its best if you just ignore everything i say and listen to the Daily Mail.
 
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GRALISTAIR

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While this thread is veering spectacularly off topic, I'll just leave this here, for those who don't believe renewable energy can produce meaningful power.

I hope this diversion has been interesting, if you're wondering where I get it from, this was worth about 20-odd percent of my degree, so I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about. If you want a more provable citation, please go read "Without Hot Air", by the late Dr David McKay. Which can be downloaded for free, or purchased from Amazon. This is a scientifically rigorous work, written in layman's terms.
.

Again - outstanding - magnificent resource - thanks for pointing this out and giving us the link. I just downloaded it.
 

TheKnightWho

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Wind = 5.25 Gw. Are you sure of that figure? Have you had it authenticated? I ask because just yesterday Christopher Booker mentioned in his column in the Sunday Torygraph that according to some well-researched figures the true amount that renewables fed into the grid last year was just 5.4% - and that was given perfect weather conditions. This is of course a yearly mean and I suspect that you're quoting a daily figure which could appear high during perfect conditions which rarely occur. Gas, coal and nuclear (those non-weather dependant producers) will happily churn out reliable dependant power day after day. Drax alone is good for 3,900+ gigawatts.
The figures that you're quoting are suspiciously similar to the 15% that the UK agreed with to the EU for non-renewable power.
But, as has oft been mentioned when the wind doesn't blow or it blows too hard then you're snookered. Renewables as we know them will never, ever match coal and gas fired stations which is why sensible countries are still building them.
Incidentally, what are all of those emergency diesel powered generators that have been installed around the country for? Answers on a postcard marked "emergency generators in case of power demand overload in winter" to the Green Party, c/o never never land.

If you look at the hourly output figures (which are published more than once a day), Booker is wildly wrong. Drax also generates 3.9GW, not 3,900, and is by far the largest fossil fuel power station we have.

I fear your idea that renewables will never outpace fossil fuels is simply woefully out of date. Look at the empirical data.
 

initiation

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Wind = 5.25 Gw. Are you sure of that figure? Have you had it authenticated? I ask because just yesterday Christopher Booker mentioned in his column in the Sunday Torygraph that according to some well-researched figures the true amount that renewables fed into the grid last year was just 5.4% - and that was given perfect weather conditions.

It's always worth checking these facts. Handily, the Department for BEIS publish figures quarterly.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/electricity-section-5-energy-trends

Want to hazard a guess at the % of renewable on the grid in Q2 2016.....


24.9%.

Hardly a one off, the figures for
Q1 2016 - 25.3%
Q4 2015 - 26.8%
Q3 2015 - 23.6%
Q2 2015 - 25.4%
Q1 2015 - 22.8%

As someone else said, the data suggests otherwise...

I will freely admin this is an average figure but even the worst fears of intermittency are being blown away. Greg Clarke said this recently
http://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/energy_secretary_admits_solar_intermittency_fears_were_overblown


Edit: Railways, as big land owners and energy users are good spots for renewables. Solar on station roofs, solar as sound barriers instead of ordinary fencing etc...
 
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snowball

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From Roger Ford's e-preview of his column in the new Modern Railways:

Rail Minster Paul Maynard made a written statement to Parliament on 8 November giving an ‘Update on the programme of rail investment in the Great Western route’. I had assumed that the review of Network Rail’s delivery plan by Sir Peter Hendy had established a new programme and budget for Great Western Electrification Programme, but, apparently the review also initiated an ‘ongoing assessment of investment decisions so that passengers and taxpayers get maximum value’.

And this scrutiny has resulted in the deferment of four section of GWEP: Oxford-Didcot Parkway; Bristol Parkway-Bristol Temple Meads; west of Thingley Junction-Bristol Temple Meads; and the Henley & Windsor branches.

Now remember that when I visited GWEP in February the aim of the cost reduction initiatives, was to complete the scheme within the £2.8 billion budget. But as the NAO put it bluntly in its report the next day, electrification of the four route sections had to be delayed because ‘the costs cannot be met within the current funding package’.

Happily, according to Paul Maynard, truncation is acceptable ‘because we can bring in the benefits expected by passengers - newer trains with more capacity – without requiring costly and disruptive electrification works’. More on numbers next month, but this diesel equivalence marked the start of the slippery slope as far as future electrification is concerned.

Following the GWEP ‘deferrals’ I expect electrification of the Midland Main Line north of Kettering and the North Trans-Pennine route to be ‘deferred’ beyond the already deferred dates announced when Network Rail Chairman Sir Peter Hendy ‘un-paused’ these schemes midway through his Review. The word ‘electrification’ appears only once in the prospectus for the East Midlands replacement franchise

As I pointed out last month, Department for Transport officials have always been institutionally Luddite when it came to electrification. Now, GWEP has justified all those reservations.

NAO’s Report rammed home this point, arguing that DfT’s recent decision to procure all the Great Western Intercity Express trains as bi-modes ‘also calls into question whether the full extent of electrification under the programme is still value for money, as all the new trains will now be able to run on non-electrified route sections’. A very steep as well as slippery, slope.

Meanwhile, on 7 November a House of Commons debate on Midland Main Line electrification had added to the woe. Paul Maynard told the House ‘We are committed to electrification on the Midland Main Line. We will deliver electrification from London to Kettering and Corby by 2019’. Development work is continuing on further electrification of the route to Sheffield and Nottingham ‘to ensure that the scheme delivers value for money for the taxpayer, and a better experience for the passenger’.

Asked when the rest of the MML would be wired Mr Maynard gave a text-book example of a Minister sticking to a difficult brief. ‘Let me make it clear that we are committed to continuing the ongoing development work, and my focus today is on how, in the shorter term, we can deliver faster journeys and better trains for his constituents’ he stonewalled.

Of course, MPs knew that was all they would get, but kept on challenging the government’s commitment to the 2023 date, perhaps for the fun of seeing a hapless minister in ‘dead parrot denial’ mode.

Meanwhile, who was it who forecast in November 1996 that diesels would rule the privatised railway?
 

superkev

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From Roger Ford's e-preview of his column in the new Modern Railways:

Oh dear. The way things are going perhaps the next phase will be de-electrification. The underperforming industry seem to have really shot themselves in the foot.
Perhaps my thread on unhealthy air quality in some stations and tunnels may save the dsy when someone seeks damages.
K
 

HowardGWR

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Anyone travelling on the developed mainland and finding they were on a diesel line would think that the national railway had forgotten about this remote branch line. The notion that a major inter-city line could be other than electric overhead would be a fantasy.

That's how far we are behind.
 

johnnychips

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Are there any other countries in Europe with fast diesels or bimodes? I have a vague recollection of Denmark having some.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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France has been using bi-modes for over 10 years including some which are dual voltage. But their maximum speed is 160kph and are described as regional units. Our IEP/AT300 sets will be somewhat novel by comparison.
 

RichmondCommu

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Are there any other countries in Europe with fast diesels or bimodes? I have a vague recollection of Denmark having some.

The IC2s are being withdrawn but they are trying to make a success of the IC4s.

DB have some high speed (ish) diesels which I think work in the Hamburg area.
 
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snowball

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A letter in the new Modern Railways (December, p. 42) contains the first clear public admission that electrification of Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge (phase 5 of the North-West Programme) will not meet its December 2017 Hendy target.

This was perhaps implicit in this recent press release but was not spelled out. The press release was discussed at the time in the Blackpool-Manchester thread.

The letter is from Francis Paonessa, Network Rail's Managing Director, Infrastructure Projects, and after a good deal of waffle it says the scheme is being "re-phased", and that this is "with the agreement of all rail industry partners, as a result of an increase in the scope of the project which has already been announced and communicated to all our stakeholders in the North West and beyond."

It doesn't say what the new target date is, or what the scope increase is.
 

davetheguard

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Anyone travelling on the developed mainland and finding they were on a diesel line would think that the national railway had forgotten about this remote branch line. The notion that a major inter-city line could be other than electric overhead would be a fantasy.

That's how far we are behind.

Yes, and don't forget we have only just managed to electrify between the two major cities of Manchester & Liverpool in the last couple of years; and the electrification work on the most important route of the four between Glasgow & Edinburgh is only now being done.

And now it seems, we're planning to slip even further behind.....
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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It doesn't say what the new target date is, or what the scope increase is.

Hopefully it is about arriving at an "HS3" plan for TP electrification which delivers more than a branch-line spec for Victoria-Stalybridge.
Leaving Victoria as a terminal station for electric working from the west does nothing for its capacity
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
A letter in the new Modern Railways (December, p. 42) contains the first clear public admission that electrification of Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge (phase 5 of the North-West Programme) will not meet its December 2017 Hendy target.

This was perhaps implicit in this recent press release but was not spelled out. The press release was discussed at the time in the Blackpool-Manchester thread.

The letter is from Francis Paonessa, Network Rail's Managing Director, Infrastructure Projects, and after a good deal of waffle it says the scheme is being "re-phased", and that this is "with the agreement of all rail industry partners, as a result of an increase in the scope of the project which has already been announced and communicated to all our stakeholders in the North West and beyond."

It doesn't say what the new target date is, or what the scope increase is.

They certainly know how to use a load of corporate mutt's nuts when putting out statements.

Could they have not simply said something along the lines of "the North West electrification project is taking longer than expected to complete, therefore will not be ready by December 2017 as previously mentioned?"
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This isn't really on topic, but there were two statements today by Philip Hammond of rail interest.
He's found new (?) money for East West Rail and Digital Railway.
I take that to mean that NR would have stopped work on these (ie run out of money) without a transfusion.

from the Autumn Statement:
£450 million to trial digital signalling on our railways to achieve a step-change in reliability.
And squeeze more capacity out of our existing rail infrastructure
...
With £110m of funding for East West Rail, and a commitment to deliver the new Oxford to Cambridge Expressway
I would guess that the cost overruns on electrification and other projects NR have to complete, forced the deferrals of others, including Vic-Stalybridge it would seem.
East-West keeps that particular show on the road, but I'm not sure what the Digital Railway context is.
It might be ROC migration, ETCS on GWML/ECML, or the pilot TMS installation they keep not managing to organise (was going to be the Wherry Lines).
£450m is a very large sum.

Maybe more will emerge when Chris Grayling next gets to speak.
 

YorkshireBear

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I am not surprised by the announcement RE stalybridge. But i can't imagine what the scope increase is? It has been known for a good while that TPE would route that way so it wasn't going to be branch line spec. I wonder if HS3 is planning an upgrade of the line in sections to improve linespeeds etc.
 

Chester1

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I am not surprised by the announcement RE stalybridge. But i can't imagine what the scope increase is? It has been known for a good while that TPE would route that way so it wasn't going to be branch line spec. I wonder if HS3 is planning an upgrade of the line in sections to improve linespeeds etc.

That would be my guess. The cancelled spec would have at most increased line speed to 90mph. There are signifcant improvements that could be made to that section to make a noticable dent into Manchester-Leeds journey times. Firstly segregate the tracks out of Victoria and build a flyover so that empty stock and freight that uses the line from Ashburys doesn't cross it. Secondly straighten the line by building a tunnel near Brookdale Golf Club. Thirdly close Aston station (build a new one between Guide Bridge and Stalybridge) and close the line between Ashton and Stalybridge / convert to Metrolink. Fourthly, tunnel and cut through from Ashton to south of Mossley to bypass Stalybridge. Fifthly, relay, electrify and resignal to allow for 125-140mph running. All or a mix of these would really cut journey time getting in and out of Manchester. The current route has 3 major bends, stations and junctions just between Victoria and Mossley, which slow down the route and mix long distance services with local traffic.
 
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Hophead

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Well, you could do all that. Or you could just be shifting the project from North-West Electrification to TPE Electrification (whenever that gets started - presumably 2019 onwards).
 

notlob.divad

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Well, you could do all that. Or you could just be shifting the project from North-West Electrification to TPE Electrification (whenever that gets started - presumably 2019 onwards).

But I thought half of the point of Wiring to Stalybridge was that they need the new feeder station there to run the remainder of the North West Electrification project. ie Victoria to Blackpool, unless someone has just found another way of bridging the air gap. I am sure this was discussed at length on the Manchester-Blackpool Electrification thread not long back. Plus as has been implied upthread, how are they going to get the throughput of services through Victoria to allow the Orsdall chord to be used to its full potential, if the ending of the wires means that all of the electric services have to reverse their like currently.
 

Greybeard33

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But I thought half of the point of Wiring to Stalybridge was that they need the new feeder station there to run the remainder of the North West Electrification project. ie Victoria to Blackpool, unless someone has just found another way of bridging the air gap. I am sure this was discussed at length on the Manchester-Blackpool Electrification thread not long back. Plus as has been implied upthread, how are they going to get the throughput of services through Victoria to allow the Orsdall chord to be used to its full potential, if the ending of the wires means that all of the electric services have to reverse their like currently.
As I previously posted on the Ordsall Chord thread, Manchester Victoria could become an all-diesel station again from 2018:
Considering that the 2tph from Wigan via Bolton will have to be diesel until Wigan to Lostock Jn is electrified, maybe the plan is that they will form the 2tph Victoria to Stalybridge service from Dec 2017? Then Northern's 3tph Preston to Manchester via Chorley electrics would go 1tph to the Airport and 2tph to Hazel Grove, so the Victoria to Stalybridge wiring would not be needed for the time being. Indeed Victoria would be left with no electric services at all, since the Liverpool stopper is to be rerouted to the Airport.

Regarding the Stalybridge Grid Supply Point, maybe the existing Willow Park GSP will be able to cope with Preston to Manchester for the time being? Northern's 3tph via Chorley will be an additional load, but Parkside is already supplying the TPE Scottish trains on the Chat Moss line and the WCML - they will not use any more power when they switch to the Chorley line. And Willow Park is currently supplying Northern's 2tph Manchester to Liverpool 319s on the Chat Moss - this will drop to 1tph from Dec 2017 when the fast service moves to the CLC line and becomes diesel.
To which Elecman, who seems to know what he is talking about, replied:
If the necessary works at Euxton MPATS and Catterall Feeder are completed I don't see why not as it could be fed from Either Willow Park via Ordsall Lane or Catterall via Euxton
 

LNW-GW Joint

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As I previously posted on the Ordsall Chord thread, Manchester Victoria could become an all-diesel station again from 2018:

Electrics will be coming into Victoria via Chorley by then, and when TPE's bi-modes turn up they can use the OHL into Victoria from the west.
 

Greybeard33

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Electrics will be coming into Victoria via Chorley by then, and when TPE's bi-modes turn up they can use the OHL into Victoria from the west.

There is no franchise requirement for a continued service from the Chorley line into Victoria, and there will be paths available for all the electrics to go cross-city via Piccadilly to the electrified Airport/Stockport lines. All the diesel services from Clitheroe/Blackburn/Southport/Kirkby/Wigan/Chester can go through Victoria to Stalybridge/Rochdale instead, so why have terminating electrics clogging up the through platforms?

I do not think TPE's bi-modes are due to "turn up" till 2019/20?
 

Mikey C

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It's not been mentioned, but by CP6/CP7 the electrification of the lines into Marylebone has to be on the agenda. Passengers numbers are growing strongly, and it serves a part of the country which is likely to experience significant population growth.

With the complete lack of electrification into Marylebone, it's not as if it can be fudged with bi-modes either.
 

swt_passenger

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It's not been mentioned, but by CP6/CP7 the electrification of the lines into Marylebone has to be on the agenda. Passengers numbers are growing strongly, and it serves a part of the country which is likely to experience significant population growth.

This ought to be covered in the West Midland and Chilterns route study when it is finalised. This is in the consultation draft:

Looking longer-term, the rolling stock on the route is due to be
replaced in the 2020s. Together with the potential benefits of
electrification and planned renewal of signalling on this route, this
provides an opportunity to consider a wider Chiltern Route upgrade.
The strategy has identified a package of upgrades to routes that
would include electrification, capacity enhancements, through
additional four track sections and remodelling key junctions, to
deliver long-term conditional outputs. This would include the
deployment of advanced signalling (ETCS), which has the potential
to increase the level of service that can be accommodated over the
infrastructure by allowing trains to safely run closer together.

"In the 2020s" fits with the CP6/CP7 period.
 

Mikey C

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This ought to be covered in the West Midland and Chilterns route study when it is finalised. This is in the consultation draft:



"In the 2020s" fits with the CP6/CP7 period.

While it fits into the West Midlands study, the bigger impact will be on the London end, especially as most trains don't go out that far.

Apart from anything else, electrifying the Chiltern line would release a sizeable number of 165s and Turbostars, which would be more useful elsewhere than the 222s released from the MML.
 

Bevan Price

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That would be my guess. The cancelled spec would have at most increased line speed to 90mph. There are signifcant improvements that could be made to that section to make a noticable dent into Manchester-Leeds journey times. Firstly segregate the tracks out of Victoria and build a flyover so that empty stock and freight that uses the line from Ashburys doesn't cross it. Secondly straighten the line by building a tunnel near Brookdale Golf Club. Thirdly close Aston station (build a new one between Guide Bridge and Stalybridge) and close the line between Ashton and Stalybridge / convert to Metrolink. Fourthly, tunnel and cut through from Ashton to south of Mossley to bypass Stalybridge. Fifthly, relay, electrify and resignal to allow for 125-140mph running. All or a mix of these would really cut journey time getting in and out of Manchester. The current route has 3 major bends, stations and junctions just between Victoria and Mossley, which slow down the route and mix long distance services with local traffic.

1. Ashton station is convenient for the bus station and close to the shopping areas. There used to be an Ashton station (Park Parade) between Guide Bridge & Stalybridge. It was poorly located for passengers and closed even before Marples/Beeching.

2. No point in making expensive increases in speed linits on the existing TP route unless they close all the intermediate stations. With a proposed 6 trains per hour, the only thing that faster trains would achieve is longer signal checks when you catch up with the previous train.

Only a largely new route between Manchester & Leeds will achieve worthwhile reductions in journey time.
 

Chester1

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1. Ashton station is convenient for the bus station and close to the shopping areas. There used to be an Ashton station (Park Parade) between Guide Bridge & Stalybridge. It was poorly located for passengers and closed even before Marples/Beeching.

2. No point in making expensive increases in speed linits on the existing TP route unless they close all the intermediate stations. With a proposed 6 trains per hour, the only thing that faster trains would achieve is longer signal checks when you catch up with the previous train.

Only a largely new route between Manchester & Leeds will achieve worthwhile reductions in journey time.

I wasn't aware of Park Parade. My understanding of Ashton's transport is most passengers use the stations are locals going to and from Manchester, while local journeys are by tram and bus. A worse located railway station and a tram extension would roughly balance each other out. I struggle to think of a high speed route into Victoria that does not remove some local stations or involve lots of tunneling. Leeds would need a new route, following one of Lord Addonis' proposals. Passing loops and limiting the number of local services would allow sufficient overtaking.
 

superkev

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Found this interesting youtube of electrification of the WCML. https://youtu.be/ua2XH9rspW8 which may give some indication of today's massively increased costs.
Although the working methods looks frightening compared to now I wonder if accidents where actually greater.
K
 

jimm

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While it fits into the West Midlands study, the bigger impact will be on the London end, especially as most trains don't go out that far.

Apart from anything else, electrifying the Chiltern line would release a sizeable number of 165s and Turbostars, which would be more useful elsewhere than the 222s released from the MML.

With the latest delays to GW wiring, and all the options for other infrastructure enhancements on the Chiltern route noted in the extract from the route study, there is simply no way that a Chiltern wiring scheme is going to get off the ground for another decade or so.

By that time, the Chiltern 165s will be well into their 30s and the first batch of 168s nearing their 30th birthdays, so I have my doubts about quite how much use you would get out of them anywhere else by that stage. Don't forget that the 165s are also limited in where else they could potentially be used due to the width of the bodyshells.

If you want to release lots of modern dmus with plenty of work left in them, then wiring the Snow Hill lines around Birmingham to free the LM 172s makes much more sense.
 
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