Sleeper service for the ECML.

[YorkRailFan]

Just wanted to start this thread to discuss the possibility for a sleeper service on the ECML. I personally would love it, but I do see several issues, such as demand, as the Caledonian Sleeper already serves Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness and Aberdeen, that leaves very few destinations for an ECML sleeper service. A possibility for it to work is if the Caledonian Sleeper stops serving Edinburgh. Another complexity would be if LNER operated the stock, meaning that LNER would have to have specific rolling stock to operate the service and staff trained. The other alternative would be for Caledonian Sleeper to operate it, as they already have rolling stock for a service like that, but even then, they would need to have staff trained specifically for this one service.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Caledonian Sleeper uses ECML when WCML is closed

 

[Gaelan]

Another key issue is platform space at Kings Cross - Euston has extra-long platforms for sleeper usage. When the CS diverts onto the ECML, it either has to be short-formed or do a long shuffle along the North London Line into Wembley Yard and back out to Euston, taking the better part of an hour.

 

[JonathanH]

The main issue with a dedicated ECML sleeper is that it doesn't create any significant new market, so isn't going to happen.

As already pointed out the ECML is already used when the WCML is shut. Passengers from West Yorkshire can already board the Highland sleeper at Preston if they see fit.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Caledonian Sleeper uses ECML when WCML is closed

Not open for passengers at intermediate stations like York, Newcastle, Doncaster and Peterborough.

 

[JonathanH]

Not open for passengers at intermediate stations like York, Newcastle, Doncaster and Peterborough.

Have you seen what time the sleepers pass through those stations? Not conducive to picking up or setting down passengers looking for a good night's sleep.

 

[RobShipway]

Not open for passengers at intermediate stations like York, Newcastle, Doncaster and Peterborough.

Where is the demand to have the sleeper service stop at those stations? As @JonathanH points out the sleeper services pass those stations well after the passengers have left those stations.

 

[Gaelan]

Have you seen what time the sleepers pass through those stations? Not conducive to picking up or setting down passengers looking for a good night's sleep.

Yeah, the fundamental problem is that York to Aberdeen/Inverness are on the order of 5-6 hours*, so even a dedicated sleeper between those points would struggle to make the timing work. Maybe a several-hour wait in Waverley?

*timings from the direct LNERs; sleepers tend to use the freight speed limit but I don't think that's a big enough difference.

 

[The Planner]

Who would be subsidising it to the level of the Caledonian Sleeper?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Have you seen what time the sleepers pass through those stations? Not conducive to picking up or setting down passengers looking for a good night's sleep.

Yes, but there are some Azumas at crazy times taking you from Newcastle and York into London, so there is some demand.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, but there are some Azumas at crazy times taking you from Newcastle and York into London, so there is some demand.

Yes, for day trains. There is insufficient demand for sleeper trains from Newcastle and York to London. Anyone who needs to be in London early is well catered for already.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yeah, the fundamental problem is that York to Aberdeen/Inverness are on the order of 5-6 hours*, so even a dedicated sleeper between those points would struggle to make the timing work. Maybe a several-hour wait in Waverley?

*timings from the direct LNERs; sleepers tend to use the freight speed limit but I don't think that's a big enough difference.

The Night Rivera spends around two hours in Exeter, I believe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2023 ==

Yes, for day trains.

A sleeper service would have seating carriages, like Caledonian Sleeper.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2023 ==

Who would be subsidising it to the level of the Caledonian Sleeper?

If it were part of Caledonian Sleeper, then the Scottish Government.

 

[JonathanH]

A sleeper service would have seating carriages, like Caledonian Sleeper.

Would you be able to post some scenarios to illustrate how it would be helpful for there to be an ECML sleeper, and how current services don't cater for demand?

The last train from York to London is a 2223, arriving at 0114. The first train from York to London is at 0440, arriving at 0700.

More interesting traction and rolling stock isn't a suitable reason.

 

[waverley47]

The first train south from Edinburgh is at 5:40, arriving around the same time as passengers are booted off the sleeper. From Newcastle there's a train south at 4:45. From Leeds at 5:05.

There isn't a need for a sleeper southbound when the early trains are so early.

 

[Iskra]

The main issue with a dedicated ECML sleeper is that it doesn't create any significant new market, so isn't going to happen.

As already pointed out the ECML is already used when the WCML is shut. Passengers from West Yorkshire can already board the Highland sleeper at Preston if they see fit.

I suspect very few Yorkshire passengers head to Preston. The sleeper fare is often the same no matter how far you travel so it’s usually better to just get a cheap advance down to London instead and enjoy the lounge and have a full nights sleep. I certainly wouldn’t want to be hanging around a cold, desolate Preston station at that time of night waiting for my train.

 

[popeter45]

rather than a dedicated ECML sleeper maybe once TPE is electrified the cally could divert across that so it does Euston-Manchester-Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh, yes would be longer but for a sleeper thats okay

 

[Iskra]

rather than a dedicated ECML sleeper maybe once TPE is electrified the cally could divert across that so it does Euston-Manchester-Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh, yes would be longer but for a sleeper thats okay

To be fair, the lowlander could do that to open new markets and drag the journey out a bit to provide a longer nights sleep.

 

[JonathanH]

To be fair, the lowlander could do that to open new markets and drag the journey out a bit to provide a longer nights sleep.

But it wouldn't open up new markets because it would be stopping at those markets in the middle of the night. Passengers won't want cabins and the last thing anyone wants is for the seated coache to have either people travelling short distances, or frequent disturbance.

 

[Iskra]

But it wouldn't open up new markets because it would be stopping at those markets in the middle of the night. Passengers won't want cabins and the last thing anyone wants is for the seated coache to have either people travelling short distances, or frequent disturbance.

Fair point

 

[The Planner]

If it were part of Caledonian Sleeper, then the Scottish Government.

Why would they want to pour more money away?

 

[JonathanH]

Fair point

What would actually be a better investment is 'relaxing rooms' at certain stations which allow passengers to have an overnight wait in safe surroundings for a small payment. Then they can catch the first train in the morning having caught the last train at night.

Obviously, it would need to be managed to prevent passengers using it as a permanent option, but it would be more straightforward than overnight sleepers to provide.

 

[Iskra]

What would actually be a better investment is 'relaxing rooms' at certain stations which allow passengers to have an overnight wait in safe surroundings for a small payment. Then they can catch the first train in the morning having caught the last train at night.

Obviously, it would need to be managed to prevent passengers using it as a permanent option, but it would be more straightforward than overnight sleepers to provide.

That’s an interesting idea

 

[YorkRailFan]

Would you be able to post some scenarios to illustrate how it would be helpful for there to be an ECML sleeper, and how current services don't cater for demand?

The last train from York to London is a 2223, arriving at 0114. The first train from York to London is at 0440, arriving at 0700.

More interesting traction and rolling stock isn't a suitable reason.

An earlier arrival for those from Newcastle trying to get into London, earlier arrivals for those traveling from York and Newcastle into Edinburgh.

 

[deltic08]

Would you be able to post some scenarios to illustrate how it would be helpful for there to be an ECML sleeper, and how current services don't cater for demand?

The last train from York to London is a 2223, arriving at 0114. The first train from York to London is at 0440, arriving at 0700.

More interesting traction and rolling stock isn't a suitable reason.

I was a regular user of the Leeds-Kings Cross sleeper in the 1970s and 80s. It was possible to occupy your berth at 22:30 after a connection from Harrogate, about 2 hours later it was shunted onto the back of others from Edinburgh and Newcastle with arrival in Kings Cross about 05:00 with berth vacation by 08:00. This gave a good 7 hours sleep and arrived early enough to travel further to Reading, Gatwick and Heathrow where I needed to be by 09:00. It also saved a night in a hotel.
Northbound was just as convenient leaving KX after midnight and arriving Leeds about 04:00 again allowed a good nights sleep and still be able to do a full day at work in Harrogate attending a theatre evening performance.
Many I know used the sleeper from Leeds if they had a morning flight from Gatwick/Heathrow/Stanstead/Luton instead of a night in an airport hotel. It was an exciting way to begin a holiday.

Using the first train from York or Leeds at 04:40 to be in London early enough would require driving to Leeds/York, as there is no connection at that time of the morning, leaving Harrogate at 03:30 at the latest. This is night travel with no proper sleep with a working day in London.

I stopped using the sleeper when it stopped calling at Leeds and went straight to London from York even using the far superior Mk3s as the earliest I could occupy a berth was after 01:00.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Why would they want to pour more money away?

The ECML sleeper service would replace the Caledonian Sleeper service to Edinburgh along the WCML, meaning that in the long term, no larger amount of money would be spent. I say long term as in the short term, things like staff training.

 

[JonathanH]

The ECML sleeper service would replace the Caledonian Sleeper service to Edinburgh along the WCML, meaning that in the long term, no larger amount of money would be spent. I say long term as in the short term, things like staff training.

It would cost more money as a) the drivers currently interwork between northbound and southbound Highland and Lowland sleepers on the WCML, b) the servicing facilities are on the WCML and c) the platforms at Euston are longer so accommodate a longer trains.

The Lowland sleeper stops at Watford, Carlisle and Carstairs. Therefore a ECML sleeper might simply run non stop from London to Edinburgh. If that is the case, there is no point switching it.

 

[Trainbike46]

The ECML sleeper service would replace the Caledonian Sleeper service to Edinburgh along the WCML, meaning that in the long term, no larger amount of money would be spent. I say long term as in the short term, things like staff training.

Why would you move the sleeper from the WCML to the ECML?

And are you moving the Glasgow portion as well? if not, you are increasing traction costs

 

[YorkRailFan]

It would cost more money as a) the drivers currently interwork between northbound and southbound Highland and Lowland sleepers on the WCML, b) the servicing facilities are on the WCML and c) the platforms at Euston are longer so accommodate a longer trains.

An ECML sleeper service likely wouldn't need a 16 carriage train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2023 ==

Why would you move the sleeper from the WCML to the ECML?

And are you moving the Glasgow portion as well? if not, you are increasing traction costs

Glasgow would stay as its quicker. I would move the WCML Edinburgh sleeper to the ECML as there likely isn't the demand for both to exist.

 

[JonathanH]

An ECML sleeper service likely wouldn't need a 16 carriage train.

Running separate trains to Edinburgh and Glasgow would increase costs.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Running separate trains to Edinburgh and Glasgow would increase costs.

True, unless you run a KGX-Aberdeen sleeper and then run Inverness and Fort William sleepers via Glasgow only.