Sleeper route question

[Mk1dreamer]

It’s very easy to romanticise it. My problem on sleepers is that I’m always too interested in what’s going on outside. That said, on Eastern European secondary routes the slow-speed swaying is quite conducive to dropping off - provided the temperature’s right. Best “run” was on Corona from Budapest to Brasov - and it did include dinner in the restaurant car!

I would go in the fall as I prefer the colder weather and the sound of rain

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

There were two up sleepers from West Wales, Fishguard Harbour and Milford Haven. I can’t recollect the Fishguard having a corresponding down sleeper?? I think the sleepers to/from Milford sleepers worked empty to/from Swansea in the consist of loco-hauled service trains?

I don't think Fishguard had a sleeper - certainly in the 70s/80s it didn't - the night boat from Rosslare arrived around 0245 and the boat train for Paddington left around 0430. In the reverse direction the boat train arrived around 0030 and the boat left around 0200. You could have a cabin on board ship for a (brief!) sleep. The Milford Haven sleeper originally ran to Neyland until that was closed in 1964.

Conversely the 'Irish Mail' in the down direction did have a sleeper to Holyhead, but given that the boat left for Dún Laoghaire at 0315 it wasn't a lot of use!

 

[Rescars]

And probably at Doncaster as well.

Could well be. I'm afraid I can't remember. It's a long time ago - probably 1984. No doubt the relevant timetable would confirm the details.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2025 ==

How comfy was the mk1 sleeper

My recollection was very - whilst they were stationary! Once on the move, the ride was typically Mark 1 and the noise was pretty intrusive. The little hook to hang your watch on, padded to stop any rattling, was a nice touch!

 

[oldman]

I remember a journey on the Inverness-Edinburgh night train - not in the sleeper but a whole compartment. An hour or so at Perth then the Edinburgh portion sat at Stirling for a couple of hours and we reached Waverley about 0830, 8 hours from leaving Aviemore. It was cold.

 

[Mk1dreamer]

I remember a journey on the Inverness-Edinburgh night train - not in the sleeper but a whole compartment. An hour or so at Perth then the Edinburgh portion sat at Stirling for a couple of hours and we reached Waverley about 0830, 8 hours from leaving Aviemore. It was cold.

Better to be too good than too hot though

 

[Harpo]

I don't think Fishguard had a sleeper - certainly in the 70s/80s it didn't - the night boat from Rosslare arrived around 0245 and the boat train for Paddington left around 0430.

The night Fishguard -Paddington was 01.50 (or thereabouts) throughout the late 70s to 90s. It became an HST by the 80s formed off the 23.15 (?) Swansea, itself formed by the first set from London to go onto Landore each evening and getting turned on the triangle because the up train didn’t call at Carmarthen.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

There were Euston-Manchester/Liverpool sleepers up to the early 80s Mk3 takeover I think. I slept on one to go to a job interview in the Liverpool area in about 1983ish.

Also until the early 70's Glasgow to Liverpool and Manchester and Edinburgh to Manchester, combined train between Carstairs and Preston.

Followed by Glasgow QS to Inverness, 180.5mi.

I once travelled from Perth to inverness 118 miles in the sleeping car of the Edinburgh portion, boarded when it arrived at 00.33 and alighted just after 06.00 for the North train. This train also conveyed newspapers mail and parcels, two BGs from Glasgow QS, one from Edinburgh and six BG/GUV attached at Perth of which several originated at Glasgow Parcels and continued onwards to Wick, Thuso and Kyle.

My shortest sleeper journey time was Crewe to Buston on the Barrow sleeper, joining just before midnight and arriving Euston before half past two although a further four hours sleep on arrival at Euston.

 

[Magdalia]

The Leeds sleeper finished in May 1983.

In its final years the down train was part of a news train that departed Kings Cross at 0110, but berths were available from 2330. It arrived Leeds at 0505, but berths did not need to be vacated until 0730.

The up train departed Leeds at 0050, but berths were available from 2300. It was attached to an Edinburgh-Kings Cross train at Doncaster, and arrived Kings Cross 0444, but berths did not need to be vacated until 0730.

HSTs killed off many the short distance sleepers, both by shrinking journey times and providing more early morning/late evening services.

In the Leeds example, in 1975 the first morning down train was 0755 from Kings Cross arriving 1033 and the last 1940 arriving 2251. First morning up train was 0730 arriving 1002 and last 1830 arriving 2146. The overnight train was the only option (apart from staying overnight) if an early arrival or late departure was required.

I preferred the MarkI sleeper to the MarkIII sleeper, but mainly because I like to sleep with a window open and dehydrate when sleeping in air conditioned spaces.

The best way to get a good night's sleep was to occupy the berth early and fall asleep before departure.

 

[Harpo]

HSTs killed off many the short distance sleepers

Many short mk1 sleeper routes survived well into the HST era but got killed off by mk3 replacements as there was no business case to continue. Included in that issue was the transition from vacuum brake to air preventing what were van trains from conveying sleepers.

 

[Magdalia]

Many short mk1 sleeper routes survived well into the HST era but got killed off by mk3 replacements as there was no business case to continue.

The Leeds sleeper only ran for 5 years after the introduction of HSTs on the ECML. When the MarkIII sleepers were first ordered there was no intention of ending sleeper services like Leeds, and enough MarkIII sleepers were ordered to cover them. When the decision was made to withdraw such sleeper services, part of the MarkIII sleeper order was cancelled. The reason that there was no business case for the Leeds sleeper to continue was the impact of the HSTs on shifting business from nighttime to daytime travel.

 

[47296lastduff]

I found the Mark1 sleepers to be quite good, certainly better than sitiing up all night in the normal coaches. The big draw back as a solo traveller was having to share the cabin with a stranger (same gender of course), and possibly ending up in the upper berth.

 

[pitdiver]

The 'Night Ferry' through service London Victoria to Paris / Brussels had a Basel (Switzerland) car for a short time as well.

If you go back to WW1 a regular overnight service was run Euston to Thurso for naval personnel stationed at Scapa Flow. Sleeping cars were only available for officers of course!

Pre-WW1 through sleeping cars were run from London to Strathpeffer (near Dingwall) and Cruden Bay (north of Aberdeen) for the railway hotels there.

In LMS days the Stranraer sleeper (running via the 'Port Road') had a through car to Turnberry for the railway hotel there - now owned by Trump of course.

Any idea where i could find the timetable for the Euston to Thurso sleeper, if one still exists?

 

[Andy R. A.]

In the mid-1970s this was how the incoming Sleeper services were dealt with at Euston to allow Sleeping Car Passengers to remain in their berths until 0730.

The method of operation was reasonably interesting. Sleeping Car passengers were allowed to remain in their berths until 0730, meaning that the station would soon fill up with trains that couldn't be moved until after 0730. So to free up platform space this is how the operation worked.
First in would be 1A00 2046 from Barrow-in-Furness due in at 0228. The train was usually made up with a TPO vehicle at the front, followed by several Mark 1 Full Brake Vans, then three or four Mark 1 passenger coaches, with two Sleeping Cars and a Mark 1 Full Brake on the end. (At one time this had an extra Sleeping Car which was attached at Preston). On arrival the Station Pilot engine (normally a class 25) would go onto the back, and the Full Brake plus the two Sleeping Cars would be detached. These would then be shunted into Platform 15, on top of a pre-positioned AC Electric Loco which would heat the stock overnight. The Pilot engine would then be detached for the next move. In the meantime another loco would be attached to the other part of 1A00, removing the stock to Willesden at 0330.
Next in would be 1A01 0027 off Manchester, due in at 0412. This would also be made up of up to seven passenger Mark 1 coaches and Vans, with three to four Mark 1 Sleeping Cars on the back plus another Mark 1 Full Brake. The station Pilot would pick up the Van and Sleeping Cars and add them to the other Sleeping Cars off 1A00 in Platform 15. Another engine would attach to the other bit of 1A01 and work the stock to Willesden at 0500.
1A02 0030 off Liverpool, due in at 0441, would be of a similar composition to 1A01. The Station Pilot would pick the Sleeping Cars and van off the back of 1A02 and attach them to the others off 1A00/1 in platform 15. The rest of 1A02 would depart for Willesden at 0545.
The last one to involve shunting would be 1A04 0110 from Holyhead due in at 0613. Formed similarly to 1A01/2 it had one or two Sleeping Cars plus another Full Brake at the back. Again the Station Pilot would shunt the Sleepers and Van onto the others in Platform 15. The rest of 1A04 would depart for Willesden at 0650. The train in Platform 15 was now a mixture of Sleeping Cars and Vans, and would remain there until the passengers had vacated their berths, departing as 5A50 to Willesden at 0750. During the day Willesden would be busy reforming these Sleeping Cars into the northbound services for the next evening.

These movements would free up platform space for the rest of the Overnight Sleepers coming from further afield.

1M13 2210 off Glasgow ran via the GSW route via Kilmarnock, due in at 0524, not leaving for Willesden until 0830.
1M11 2310 off Glasgow due in at 0534 remained in the station until 0815 before leaving for Willesden.
1M10 2230 off Glasgow, also ran via Kilmarnock, due in at 0557, and was worked out to Willesden at 0755.
1M12 2140 off Perth (started from Inverness on Sunday Evenings) was due in at 0634 also had a TCV (Twin deck Car carrier) on the back, which required the Station Pilot to detach it and move it to 19 road in the Parcels area for unloading. The rest of 1M12 left the station at 0725 (which was the one exception to the 0730 rule for the Sleeping Car passengers, in this case 0715).
1M15 1930 off Inverness due in at 0713 departed for Willesden at 0822.
1M14 2230 off Stranraer Harbour due in at 0743. This train ran via the Birmingham area, but didn’t stop there, mainly to ‘lose it’ for a while so a platform could be freed up to deal with it by the time it got to us. The empty stock departed for Willesden at 0839. This service sometimes would produce one of the small number of Stanier Full Brakes (Plain Blue Livery) attached to the rear.
The following year would see the introduction of another extra service from Inverness & Fort William, 1M16.

Andy.

 

[Tester]

In the mid-1970s this was how the incoming Sleeper services were dealt with at Euston to allow Sleeping Car Passengers to remain in their berths until 0730.

The method of operation was reasonably interesting. Sleeping Car passengers were allowed to remain in their berths until 0730, meaning that the station would soon fill up with trains that couldn't be moved until after 0730. So to free up platform space this is how the operation worked.
First in would be 1A00 2046 from Barrow-in-Furness due in at 0228. The train was usually made up with a TPO vehicle at the front, followed by several Mark 1 Full Brake Vans, then three or four Mark 1 passenger coaches, with two Sleeping Cars and a Mark 1 Full Brake on the end. (At one time this had an extra Sleeping Car which was attached at Preston). On arrival the Station Pilot engine (normally a class 25) would go onto the back, and the Full Brake plus the two Sleeping Cars would be detached. These would then be shunted into Platform 15, on top of a pre-positioned AC Electric Loco which would heat the stock overnight. The Pilot engine would then be detached for the next move. In the meantime another loco would be attached to the other part of 1A00, removing the stock to Willesden at 0330.
Next in would be 1A01 0027 off Manchester, due in at 0412. This would also be made up of up to seven passenger Mark 1 coaches and Vans, with three to four Mark 1 Sleeping Cars on the back plus another Mark 1 Full Brake. The station Pilot would pick up the Van and Sleeping Cars and add them to the other Sleeping Cars off 1A00 in Platform 15. Another engine would attach to the other bit of 1A01 and work the stock to Willesden at 0500.
1A02 0030 off Liverpool, due in at 0441, would be of a similar composition to 1A01. The Station Pilot would pick the Sleeping Cars and van off the back of 1A02 and attach them to the others off 1A00/1 in platform 15. The rest of 1A02 would depart for Willesden at 0545.
The last one to involve shunting would be 1A04 0110 from Holyhead due in at 0613. Formed similarly to 1A01/2 it had one or two Sleeping Cars plus another Full Brake at the back. Again the Station Pilot would shunt the Sleepers and Van onto the others in Platform 15. The rest of 1A04 would depart for Willesden at 0650. The train in Platform 15 was now a mixture of Sleeping Cars and Vans, and would remain there until the passengers had vacated their berths, departing as 5A50 to Willesden at 0750. During the day Willesden would be busy reforming these Sleeping Cars into the northbound services for the next evening.

These movements would free up platform space for the rest of the Overnight Sleepers coming from further afield.

1M13 2210 off Glasgow ran via the GSW route via Kilmarnock, due in at 0524, not leaving for Willesden until 0830.
1M11 2310 off Glasgow due in at 0534 remained in the station until 0815 before leaving for Willesden.
1M10 2230 off Glasgow, also ran via Kilmarnock, due in at 0557, and was worked out to Willesden at 0755.
1M12 2140 off Perth (started from Inverness on Sunday Evenings) was due in at 0634 also had a TCV (Twin deck Car carrier) on the back, which required the Station Pilot to detach it and move it to 19 road in the Parcels area for unloading. The rest of 1M12 left the station at 0725 (which was the one exception to the 0730 rule for the Sleeping Car passengers, in this case 0715).
1M15 1930 off Inverness due in at 0713 departed for Willesden at 0822.
1M14 2230 off Stranraer Harbour due in at 0743. This train ran via the Birmingham area, but didn’t stop there, mainly to ‘lose it’ for a while so a platform could be freed up to deal with it by the time it got to us. The empty stock departed for Willesden at 0839. This service sometimes would produce one of the small number of Stanier Full Brakes (Plain Blue Livery) attached to the rear.
The following year would see the introduction of another extra service from Inverness & Fort William, 1M16.

Andy.

Something worth adding (remembering that this is the mk1 era with 'to track' toilets) is that Euston platform 15 was equipped with troughs between the rails, so that any use of the toilets was managed.

 

[CW2]

The Stranraer - Euston is an interesting one.
Historically it took the "Port Road" direct from Stranraer to Dumfries via Castle Douglas.
Once that route closed, it took a longer route via Newton on Ayr and Annbank to Mauchline before heading south.
Then the line from Barassie to Kilmarnock became the preferred passenger route, with Annbank - Mauchline operating freight only and restricted opening hours.
Finally (if I remember correctly) the Stranraer - Euston ran all the way to Glasgow Central, reversing there before heading south. I don't recall if it attached another portion at Glasgow Central (ex Fort William maybe?), or whether it then ran main line or continued to serve Kilmarnock and Dumfries. Can anybody with a better memory clarify for me please?

 

[6Gman]

I always romanticized it I guess I imagine a cosy bed looking out in the rain as you nod off (I listen to YouTube night sleeping train noises to help sleep) I had a meal in the restaurant car and a cup of tea in the lounge car earlier lol

The last time I used a sleeper I was woken (as requested) by the attendant and raised the blind to see the lovely Cornish countryside near Bodmin Road as I drank my tea and ate the biscuits he had supplied. Hell of a way to start a day!

 

[Mk1dreamer]

The last time I used a sleeper I was woken (as requested) by the attendant and raised the blind to see the lovely Cornish countryside near Bodmin Road as I drank my tea and ate the biscuits he had supplied. Hell of a way to start a day!

I wish the uk had longer routes as I can imagine how cosy you get in your cabin

 

[Haywain]

The last time I used a sleeper I was woken (as requested) by the attendant and raised the blind to see the lovely Cornish countryside near Bodmin Road as I drank my tea and ate the biscuits he had supplied. Hell of a way to start a day!

Especially if you were expecting to see Paddington!

 

[The exile]

I found the Mark1 sleepers to be quite good, certainly better than sitiing up all night in the normal coaches. The big draw back as a solo traveller was having to share the cabin with a stranger (same gender of course), and possibly ending up in the upper berth.

Though that's not peculiar to Mk 1s but dependent on the booking arrangements.

 

[Sleepy]

Some of the Sleepers didn't have any type of lounge car facility so you were limited to your berth (or the toilet ) catering was drinks to your berth, tea/coffee & biscuits with morning wake up call.

 

[MadMac]

The Stranraer - Euston is an interesting one.
Historically it took the "Port Road" direct from Stranraer to Dumfries via Castle Douglas.
Once that route closed, it took a longer route via Newton on Ayr and Annbank to Mauchline before heading south.
Then the line from Barassie to Kilmarnock became the preferred passenger route, with Annbank - Mauchline operating freight only and restricted opening hours.
Finally (if I remember correctly) the Stranraer - Euston ran all the way to Glasgow Central, reversing there before heading south. I don't recall if it attached another portion at Glasgow Central (ex Fort William maybe?), or whether it then ran main line or continued to serve Kilmarnock and Dumfries. Can anybody with a better memory clarify for me please?

The third side of the triangle at Newton-on-Ayr closed around 1975 forcing the service to run via Barassie-Kilmarnock.

 

[Blade Fisher]

Stranraer (Harbour) to London Euston would, quite likely, have been one of the longer, now discontinued, sleeper routes. Think the so-called "Paddy Sleeper" lasted until Sunday 13th May 1990. Would have had to have operated via Ayr in its later years. Anyone got its actual routeing, immediately prior to closure?

Yep at the end went via Glasgow ! So it went from Euston via Castle Douglas, to Euston via Annbank. to Euston via Gatehead and finally Euston via Glasgow. Adding about 100 to 150 miles to the journey ! I think on certain days in the mid 70's it would load to 13 vehicles from Carlisle. Bit of a bugger at Barrhill

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2025 ==

The third side of the triangle at Newton-on-Ayr closed around 1975 forcing the service to run via Barassie-Kilmarnock.

A totally daft move that. Any idea why?

 

[MadMac]

Yep at the end went via Glasgow ! So it went from Euston via Castle Douglas, to Euston via Annbank. to Euston via Gatehead and finally Euston via Glasgow. Adding about 100 to 150 miles to the journey ! I think on certain days in the mid 70's it would load to 13 vehicles from Carlisle. Bit of a bugger at Barrhill

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2025 ==


A totally daft move that. Any idea why?

Re the triangle: in 1970, the box at the Ayr end (Hawkhill Junction) was deliberately set alight by the signalman, who subsequently did a stretch for it. Work was done to transfer control to Newton Junction. Not much traffic went round that way, and I suspect that some sort of major renewal couldn’t be economically justified. Any freight going to/from South of Ayr could be rounded at Falkland Yard, and passenger traffic diverted via Kilmarnock. Add that BR essentially wanted rid of Newton Junction-Mauchline as a through route (they actually managed that in the mid-80s for about three years) and you can see where it was headed.

 

[Blade Fisher]

Re the triangle: in 1970, the box at the Ayr end (Hawkhill Junction) was deliberately set alight by the signalman, who subsequently did a stretch for it. Work was done to transfer control to Newton Junction. Not much traffic went round that way, and I suspect that some sort of major renewal couldn’t be economically justified. Any freight going to/from South of Ayr could be rounded at Falkland Yard, and passenger traffic diverted via Kilmarnock. Add that BR essentially wanted rid of Newton Junction-Mauchline as a through route (they actually managed that in the mid-80s for about three years) and you can see where it was headed.

Thanks Mac

 

[norbitonflyer]

I remember a journey on the Inverness-Edinburgh night train - not in the sleeper but a whole compartment. An hour or so at Perth then the Edinburgh portion sat at Stirling for a couple of hours and we reached Waverley about 0830, 8 hours from leaving Aviemore. It was cold.

I did that once - as there was a whole empty compartment in the Edinburgh portion I bedded down there, with the intention of moving to the Glasgow portion during the lengthy stop at Stirling. Woke up at Linlithgow!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2025 ==

The Leeds sleeper finished in May 1983.

In its final years the down train was part of a news train that departed Kings Cross at 0110, but berths were available from 2330. It arrived Leeds at 0505, but berths did not need to be vacated until 0730.

I'm sure i used an overnight Leeds service in September that year - maybe no sleepers by then, only seats. Left Kings Cross at 0005, and took about 4 hours to get to Retford (where I changed for the Mancehster-Cleethorpes newspaper train - a long cold wait in pre-dawn)
Memorable because both it at the 2359 Aberdeen left the Cross together, two Deltics side by side in Gasworks Tunnel - and of course i was in the leading carriage, with the window open!

 

[Sultan1056]

I'm sure i used an overnight Leeds service in September that year - maybe no sleepers by then, only seats. Left Kings Cross at 0005, and took about 4 hours to get to Retford (where I changed for the Mancehster-Cleethorpes newspaper train - a long cold wait in pre-dawn)
Memorable because both it at the 2359 Aberdeen left the Cross together, two Deltics side by side in Gasworks Tunnel - and of course i was in the leading carriage, with the window open!

It would have been no later than 1981, the final year of the Deltics. I presume you must have been travelling in the 0005 service to Newcastle racing the 2355 Night Scotsman sleeper to Edinburgh.
It must have been a great departure out of The Cross.

 

[Magdalia]

I'm sure i used an overnight Leeds service in September that year - maybe no sleepers by then, only seats. Left Kings Cross at 0005, and took about 4 hours to get to Retford (where I changed for the Mancehster-Cleethorpes newspaper train - a long cold wait in pre-dawn)
Memorable because both it at the 2359 Aberdeen left the Cross together, two Deltics side by side in Gasworks Tunnel - and of course i was in the leading carriage, with the window open!

the Deltics finished in January 1982, before the Leeds sleeper which finished in May 1983.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It would have been no later than 1981, the final year of the Deltics. I presume you must have been travelling in the 0005 service to Newcastle racing the 2355 Night Scotsman sleeper to Edinburgh.
It must have been a great departure out of The Cross.

It was a great departure! 144 pistons throbbing away in the tunnel a few feet away

However, I think I am confusing two journeys. Certainly the Deltic race happened, so must have been in 1981 or possibly 1980.

Now you have jogged my memory, I do remember that the train I used which had a sleeper portion for Leeds was a later, occasion, and had a 31 on the front. By the time it reached Retford it had a different 31 on the front and many of the vans the train had started out with were no longer there.

(The end of the Albert Hall Prom concert season coincided with a family birthday, so it was a habit of mine in the early 80s to go to the penultimate night - always a Friday - and then catch a night train north to spend the weekend with my parents.

 

[Rescars]

The last time I used a sleeper I was woken (as requested) by the attendant and raised the blind to see the lovely Cornish countryside near Bodmin Road as I drank my tea and ate the biscuits he had supplied. Hell of a way to start a day!

Some of the Sleepers didn't have any type of lounge car facility so you were limited to your berth (or the toilet ) catering was drinks to your berth, tea/coffee & biscuits with morning wake up call.

Sometimes you got a free newspaper. Up trains tended to provide London editions which had been sent north to Crewe or somewhere equivalent earlier in the night.

On one trip southbound, I recall being woken by the attendant shining a Bardic lamp in my face. "Morning" he said! No light, no tea, no coffee, no hot water - because the belt had dropped off the dynamo. He said I could call it "good morning" if I liked! The view out of the window of a grey dawn breaking over urbanised home counties didn't improve the mood much either. Hell of a different way to start a day!

 

[MadMac]

Thanks Mac

Pleasure! Some clarification/correction: It was actually Ayr No. 1 box that control of Hawkhill Junction went to. Also, it appears that Annbank Junction-Mauchline closed in 1983, subsequently reopening in 1988.