Skipton-Colne again... sorry!

[quantinghome]

It’s not as much as that: 2 to each of Bradford, Ilkley, and Skipton, together with an LNER and the hourly trains beyond Skipton.

in the peak

And beyond Shipley it’s down to 4tph each way.

How does that help? Are you thinking of sending your additional trains somewhere other than Leeds?

 

[Bald Rick]

And beyond Shipley it’s down to 4tph each way.

5, with the services to Lancaster and the S&C.

Were it ever to happen - and to be clear it will not - it would have to be extensions of the Skipton services to fit into the West end of Leeds.

 

[yoyothehobo]

It would connect significant populations and as the lowest altitude crossing of the Pennines it has significant advantages over other routes as it doesn't need any tunnels. So I think it would always have been a contender, and indeed it was built around the same time as most of the other transpennine routes. But Copy Pit exists, and upgrading that would probably be a cheaper way of improving the service between West Yorks and East Lancs.

It connects 2 significant populations, that are already rail connected. The connection would be no faster than the existing 1hr 5 mins service from Burnley which is where the journey time would need to be competitive from.

Now if there was a nice base tunnel from Keighley to Nelson that would be great and in a lovely fantasy world you could run the Aire valley services to there instead of Skipton.

But unfortunately that is not the world we live in. Skipton to Colne suffers because it will not improve the poor offering that exists by Copy Pit that can be improved by lengthened trains and electrification and other frequency improvements.

Which is why if you go back to the question at the start of the thread i think it is a basket case.

Maybe because i work in the rail industry and i think that there are 100s of things that need to be done before we start rebuilding lines.

If the funding came from private sources then maybe, but i can think of much better uses in that area of Lancashire than £500 million on rebuilding a railway.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

All this talk of a congested trans-Pennine road had me do some digging and I have found a most useful website: mabcu.uk. This is an open source site collating and displaying official DfT traffic data and has details of official traffic counts.

Needless to say there is data for the A6068 which reveals for the central moorland section, at last count in 2023, an average daily number of cars and taxis of 5,015 (total in both directions). Note that this is barely 50% of the number for 2004, so hardly booming. Then consider the numbers for another re-opening idea which regularly crops up here, Harrogate-Ripon. The most suitable census point is on the A61 north-east of Ripley where the road and former rail route come together heading north. The average daily count here is 9,672, nearly double that for the A6068. Yet Harrogate-Ripon re-opening is effectively dead in the water as the local council have dismissed the re-opening campaign due to its rather obvious lack of public support.

Another point to remember about the A6068 is that some of that traffic will inevitably be NHS staff at Airedale General Hospital, located just west of Steeton, who will find the commute from East Lancs preferable to paying the higher property prices of suburban West Riding.

As has been mentioned upthread re-openings now should really be considered as building brand new railways as former route formations have been disused too long to be suitable for re-use without extensive upgrading or even complete reconstruction. Throw in the need to replace a bridge or two and just the construction costs are eye-watering. Add to that the likelihood that the line would need operating subsidies to keep going and any scheme starts to look like a rather large consumer of public funds. Not an idea that's going to win many friends in these economically challenging times.

Of course it would be great if we in this country had a similar attitude to public transport as do the Dutch or Swiss. But the reality is far removed from that. It would very possibly be a much better use of time and energy if campaigners looked at other more realistic (ie less costly) ideas for improving public transport provision instead of insisting it's trains or nothing.

 

[bluenoxid]

The section of the A6068 being referred to runs from the end of the M65 to Kildwick roundabout.

The A6068 through Crosshills is busy for a number of reasons. It is the base for a substantial secondary school (1,700) with two difficult junctions for drivers trying to navigate them (Sutton and Station Road). It’s a pinch point for back roads as well.

The section through Colne is hampered by lot of junctions built off it and the dumping of the M65 at one end of it. The option that comes up is to divert the M65 towards Foulridge. Some of those options would utilise the route that the railway used to take.

I don’t think that they are that busy. They are congested but the issue is junctions, local traffic drivers and not inter-regional traffic throughput.

 

[Tetchytyke]

5, with the services to Lancaster and the S&C.

No, 4: the Skipton-Bradford service is only hourly.

 

[bluenoxid]

5, with the services to Lancaster and the S&C.

Were it ever to happen - and to be clear it will not - it would have to be extensions of the Skipton services to fit into the West end of Leeds.

No, 4: the Skipton-Bradford service is only hourly.

Skipton - Shipley passenger train volumes depends on the time of day. It’s mostly 4 during the day and ramps up to 5-6 in the peak hours. There are 7 departures between 7 and 8 from Skipton.

 

[Bald Rick]

No, 4: the Skipton-Bradford service is only hourly.

Only for 4 hours in the middle of the day, and for the last couple of hours at night. Presumably some of the prospective Colne - Leeds / Bradford via Skipton passengers would want to travel before 1000 in the morning and between 1430 and 2100.

 

[30907]

It’s not as much as that: 2 to each of Bradford, Ilkley, and Skipton, together with an LNER and the hourly trains beyond Skipton.

And beyond Shipley it’s down to 4tph each way.

You are referring to the offpeak timetable, when the A6068 is pretty free-flowing except through Crosshills.

The morning peak is 7tph Skipton-Shipley and 7tph Shipley-Leeds, with 4 from Ilkley in the peak hour.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The section of the A6068 being referred to runs from the end of the M65 to Kildwick roundabout.

The A6068 through Crosshills is busy for a number of reasons. It is the base for a substantial secondary school (1,700) with two difficult junctions for drivers trying to navigate them (Sutton and Station Road). It’s a pinch point for back roads as well.

The section through Colne is hampered by lot of junctions built off it and the dumping of the M65 at one end of it. The option that comes up is to divert the M65 towards Foulridge. Some of those options would utilise the route that the railway used to take.

I don’t think that they are that busy. They are congested but the issue is junctions, local traffic drivers and not inter-regional traffic throughput.

The A6068 is also in the "bottom division" of A roads, at least in England. In reality it is little more than a country road across the moors and when passing through villages there are often vehicles parked on the road. As well as some sharp curves there are numerous places with overtaking restrictions. It's no surprise that it feels like such a drag if having to drive along it every day. The traffic volumes are not actually that great but it's not a free-flowing highway so can become congested very easily.

 

[rishtonlad]

With the talk of reopening, it has been going on that long I would believe it when I see it. Would the money be better spent on improving the line speed over the Copy Pit and increasing the number of services with a stop on the Leeds services at Rose Grove to provide connect to the currant Colne service.

 

[quantinghome]

With the talk of reopening, it has been going on that long I would believe it when I see it. Would the money be better spent on improving the line speed over the Copy Pit and increasing the number of services with a stop on the Leeds services at Rose Grove to provide connect to the currant Colne service.

Improving the speed over Copy Pit may be difficult given the geological problems on the route. Routeing via Dewsbury (once TRU have finished with it) would be the best bet to improve journey time.

You could probably increase the number of services without too much difficulty - extending the service from Leeds that stops at Halifax would be the obvious one.

A better interchange at Rose Grove would be welcome but I doubt it would be much use for Colne-Leeds - it would be at least 1h30, compared to just over an hour driving to Steeton and getting the train from there.

 

[Smeeps]

Is there a market? I don't mean SELRAP members; I mean, how many people are using the bus service to travel between Skipton, Barnoldswick and Colne? Are there lost of people travelling Leeds-Skipton, then on to Barnoldswick or Colne? How many traffic journeys are there? Has anyone ever measured this?

In project terms, has this ever moved beyond SBC/SOBC level? In not, that suggests a Full Business Case can't be made.

I don't think you can see the demand by the current number of people using the bus as this is less convenient and slower than a rail link would be. I currently drive Colne to Skipton when heading into London so I'd be a user of the new line even though I'm not currently getting the bus.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Improving the speed over Copy Pit may be difficult given the geological problems on the route. Routeing via Dewsbury (once TRU have finished with it) would be the best bet to improve journey time.

You could probably increase the number of services without too much difficulty - extending the service from Leeds that stops at Halifax would be the obvious one.

A better interchange at Rose Grove would be welcome but I doubt it would be much use for Colne-Leeds - it would be at least 1h30, compared to just over an hour driving to Steeton and getting the train from there.

I definitely agree about Rose Grove not really working as an interchange in the real world.

I have thought perhaps about Dewsbury as a route to Leeds, however you cannot miss Bradford really. That is a big draw of passengers as well

 

[Smeeps]

The true answer is “nobody knows”, because every study (or ‘study’) done only looks at the Skipton - Colne section, and assumes that works off that section needed to accommodate the train service in a feasible timetable are done by “others”. (Others being taxpayers, of course). It is the same with almost every other old chestnut proposal.

But, I’ll have a go with an educated guess. My own thoughts and nothing remotely official.

Opening a new line from Colne to Skipton, given the need to build at least three big bridges, compensate a lot of property owners, have a completely new alignment around Earby, and complete a no doubt difficult consents process, I can’t see that costing less than £400m at outturn costs, and probably £500m+.

Add in some doubling of the existing Colne branch, Level Crossing upgrades to deal with the increased risk due to longer / busier trains, discontinuous electrification between Skipton and Preston, possible platform extensions Colne to Burnley (and possibly the Aire Valley) and that’s easily another couple of hundred million.

Then around £10m a year incremental cost of operation (all in - train lease, mileage, electricity, crew, maintenance, cleaning, infrastructure maintenance, operation, renewal, retailing costs, overheads).

Most of the level crossings on the route are not vital road routes and could be closed to traffic especially as Nelson is looking to reduce motor vehicle use in the town.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I have thought perhaps about Dewsbury as a route to Leeds, however you cannot miss Bradford really. That is a big draw of passengers as well

Bradford probably isn't the draw it once was.

2tph from Preston to Leeds, one via Bradford and one via Dewsbury once TRU is complete, would be a good start.

I don't think Colne to Skipton should ever have closed- and if it had survived another couple of years it probably wouldn't have- but there is the capacity to go to at least 2tph on the Copy Pit.

 

[Smeeps]

Most of the level crossings on the route are not vital road routes and could be closed to traffic especially as Nelson is looking to reduce motor vehicle use in the town.

Railway Street in Brierfield is the only important one but you could perhaps close it and route traffic via a widened Glen Way instead. There's certainly room to widen it and room for a wider junction at the top to allow HGV turning movements.

Barkerhouse Road in Nelson could easily be closed with little to no impact on the local road network, there are already many alternatives nearby. Sagar Street has no height restriction for example.

 

[Bald Rick]

Most of the level crossings on the route are not vital road routes and could be closed to traffic especially as Nelson is looking to reduce motor vehicle use in the town.

You could close every level crossing in the country with enough money and effort. But it only takes one objection to a closure and you‘re into a public inquiry. Now, obviously, there would be a substantial, prolonged and difficult public inquiry into Skipton - Colne, and level crossing closure could be included in that. But there is no guarantee that the planning inspectorate or Secretary of State would find in favour of the proposed closures, as other parts of the railway have found. And all of it is added cost - potentially lots of it.

 

[Smeeps]

You could close every level crossing in the country with enough money and effort. But it only takes one objection to a closure and you‘re into a public inquiry. Now, obviously, there would be a substantial, prolonged and difficult public inquiry into Skipton - Colne, and level crossing closure could be included in that. But there is no guarantee that the planning inspectorate or Secretary of State would find in favour of the proposed closures, as other parts of the railway have found. And all of it is added cost - potentially lots of it.

Indeed although highway stopping up orders are granted for much less. Where suitable alternative routes are so close by in both locations, there wouldn't be much of a case for objections to be upheld IMO

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed although highway stopping up orders are granted for much less. Where suitable alternative routes are so close by in both locations, there wouldn't be much of a case for objections to be upheld IMO

You‘ll have to trust me, having closed more than my fair share of level crossings from footpaths to farms to main roads, that what might seem to be a straightforward process for an obviously easy level crossing closure is rarely so.

 

[Halish Railway]

2tph from Preston to Leeds, one via Bradford and one via Dewsbury once TRU is complete, would be a good start.

I’d have thought it would be more likely to extend the Hull to Halifax service to Preston so that no more paths are required through Leeds. It would also be my preference to transfer the stops at Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd to this service to speed up the Chester to Leeds service, as well as Rose Grove and Bamber Bridge to improve frequency and provide and interchange to the Colne service.

Portions of the route between Hebden Bridge and Burnley Manchester Road look geometrically capable of higher speeds than 45 mph for passenger services, maybe 75 mph between Towneley Park and Portsmouth (Calder Valley). But as others have mentioned the ground conditions are pretty horrendous so any scheme to increase the linespeed for both freight and passenger services may prove costly. However, as alluded to I think there is justification to do this if the number of services are increased instead of reopening Skipton to Colne, especially if the Copy Pit route recieves more services per hour going to a greater number of destinations.

Sort of off-topic, but I do also wonder whether it’s possible to run a Colne to Manchester service with a reversal at Rose Grove if our objective is to improve connectivity for the East Lancashire conurbation. Of course it would require significant track work between Rose Grove and Colne, but fortunately at the moment it’s the sort of route where you can do an extended-length blockade to implement these improvements, akin to the winter closure of the North Fylde line a few years ago.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Sort of off-topic, but I do also wonder whether it’s possible to run a Colne to Manchester service with a reversal at Rose Grove if our objective is to improve connectivity for the East Lancashire conurbation.

For more than 1tph you'd need a loop, I'd say Nelson would be the best bet. Thankfully it looks like they left room when they built the bus station.

Otherwise you could have hourly Colne-Manchester via Blackburn and Darwen as an extension of the existing Manchester-Blackburn trains, with a separate (Blackpool South)-Preston-Blackburn stopper. Although that would be much slower than the line via Todmorden.

 

[Halish Railway]

Otherwise you could have hourly Colne-Manchester via Blackburn and Darwen as an extension of the existing Manchester-Blackburn trains, with a separate (Blackpool South)-Preston-Blackburn stopper. Although that would be much slower than the line via Todmorden.

BRouter.de shows that the route from Colne to Manchester Victoria via Todmorden with a reversal at Rose Grove is 58.9 km, whereas via Blackburn is 66.4 km. My general point is that adding such a service strengthens the case to improve the Copy Pit line rather than reopening Skipton to Colne.

 

[Smeeps]

Colne to MCV is sorely needed since the direct bus was cut. Even improving Colne to 2tph (how many passing loops/extra platforms do you need for that?) and/or improving the interchange time at Rose Grove would be a huge improvement. Current journey time is 1h45 which isn't remotely competitive to the car.

 

[philthetube]

How much would it cost for a meaningful solution to allow interchange of trains from Colne onto the trains heading between Blackburn and Leeds via Copy Pit? My understanding of the line is that the problem is that there is no interchange until Accrington so a passenger from Colne would have to travel a long way extra to go to Leeds.

A station at the junction would work, but that would create an extra stop in the Copy Pit. If demand is already time sensitive then adding stops does not help. However, I am more of the opinion that you could add another stop in the Blackpool to Leeds.

The next issue would be can trains to Colne go more regular? Would a battery shuttle from the new junction station to Colne work and could a passing loop make the shuttle more regular? In such a case could the stopping train between Preston and Burnley then route to Hebden Bridge (say) and turn around provision be made there. These changes would give a lot more connectivity. (Choice of Hebden Bridge is to allow interchange onto Manchester to Leeds trains)

Rose grove would be a big help.

There is some interesting history here: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/colne_and_skipton_line/index.shtml

It appears the route never achieved its apparent potential in connecting two large areas of population due to Colne being the border between the L&Y and Midland. Until nationalisation you had to change trains at Colne, and the timings were poor. It wasn't scheduled for closure in the Beeching report but was closed separately later on in the 60s with low passenger numbers cited.

Numbers were very low prior to closure, my mum had a taxi firm and used to provide a rail replacement 8 seater minibus, it always covered the job.


the reason numbers were so low was that there was no ticket office on Colne Station and on the paytrains you could only buy a limited range of tickets, there were non available past Skipton so you had to pay twice which made it expensive, there were a few places going west to which you could buy tickets apart from stations on the line, I remember Manchester and Blackpool.


as an aside she also used to get occasional calls to go and wake the Nelson signal man and take him to the box asap.

(A) which already has regular train services via a faster route that could be upgraded by lengthening trains and electrification for cheaper...

you only need to look and the Copy pit line and the numbers travelling from Burnley to realise the potential.

For the last 5 years, Colne to Skipton has had just an hourly bus, currently run with a mix of single- and double-deckers. For most of the previous 15 years, it had at least 2 buses per hour. Transdev clearly haven't felt the need to reinstate the previous half-hourly service, which suggests the current service is coping.

Earby has a half-hourly service from Barnoldswick to Colne and Burnley, and an hourly service from Preston to Skipton, which seems to be sufficient.

Burnley and Colne to Keighley has a half-hourly service, which is only slightly slower than a direct train via Skipton would be (from Colne at any rate, from Burnley the train would have a bigger advantage).

There was only ever an hourly service to Skipton, once run by Standerwick, then Ribble, Pennine, finally Transdev, the only time it was half hourly was for the (long period) when Transdev decided to get rid of Pennine, they finally did that by putting on a half hourly service of their own, about a year after that they dropped back to hourly.

And the Blackburn to Colne line sections that are only currently single track be doubled.

It would only need doubling to Gannow Junction as the rest of the route is already double, approx 7/8 miles to double.

 

[stevieinselby]

There was only ever an hourly service to Skipton, once run by Standerwick, then Ribble, Pennine, finally Transdev, the only time it was half hourly was for the (long period) when Transdev decided to get rid of Pennine, they finally did that by putting on a half hourly service of their own, about a year after that they dropped back to hourly.

It lasted a lot longer than that.

In 2010, Transdev increased the 22/27/29* to half-hourly between Burnley and Skipton, alongside the hourly Pennine 215. That arrangement continued for 4 years until Pennine folded in 2014.
From 2014 to 2016, Transdev ran the 28 every half-hour from Burnley to Skipton, supplemented by extending the 29 beyond Barnoldswick on weekdays to provide 4 buses an hour, although it remained half-hourly on Saturdays.
From 2016 to 2020, they ran the X43 Witch Way every half hour from Manchester to Skipton, with the service running on the M65 between Colne and Burnley.
At the start of 2020, they were preparing to launch PendleWizz to replace the X43 north of Burnley with a half-hourly service running Burnley to Skipton and reverting back to the slow road through Nelson – but Covid intervened, a reduced service was run during lockdown and it never came back up to the planned half-hourly service.

* this was back in the era when Mainline services were numbered by their destination rather than their route so the same journey would have a different number in different directions