Skipton-Colne again... sorry!

[The Planner]

The next issue would be can trains to Colne go more regular? Would a battery shuttle from the new junction station to Colne work and could a passing loop make the shuttle more regular? In such a case could the stopping train between Preston and Burnley then route to Hebden Bridge (say) and turn around provision be made there. These changes would give a lot more connectivity. (Choice of Hebden Bridge is to allow interchange onto Manchester to Leeds trains)

You are now into the realms of signalling. Its one train only in section currently. Gannow to Colne is 18½ minutes and you have to stop at Chaffers LC to operate it. You need to get it down to 12½ minutes to allow a 5 minute turnaround to get 2tph on what is there and that is at 100% occupancy. If you got the dwells down to ½ minute each, reduced the engineering allowance to [1] and sorted Chaffers, you would still be around 15 15½ minutes. The stations are too close together to have line speed improvements making a big dent.

 

[bluenoxid]

Rose Grove would be a serious contender for an interchange. Between Gannow Junction and Rose Grove is a bridge currently not used by trains, a loop and then a disused section of track to the station. However, I recognise that a new interchange station might support removal of Burnley Barracks station.

 

[quantinghome]

You are now into the realms of signalling. Its one train only in section currently. Gannow to Colne is 18½ minutes and you have to stop at Chaffers LC to operate it. You need to get it down to 12½ minutes to allow a 5 minute turnaround to get 2tph on what is there and that is at 100% occupancy. If you got the dwells down to ½ minute each, reduced the engineering allowance to [1] and sorted Chaffers, you would still be around 15 15½ minutes. The stations are too close together to have line speed improvements making a big dent.

The longest single track section I am aware of which takes 2 tph each way is Shipley-Guiseley. That's 9 minutes, so given the current 18 minute timing, you'd have to redouble around half the single track section to get it to work.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Which means the cost goes up. North of half a billion with the reopening…



The Aire viaduct (and across the flood plain) would be much closer to £50m than £5m, almost certainly above £50m in fact. Similarly the bridge for the dual carriageway in Colne.

Anyway, I’m looking forward to all the free beer people are going to buy me with the bet I laid 14 years ago on this forum that it wouldn’t be open before 2030. I bet they don’t pay up. I would have if I’d lost.

Did anyone take your bet?

 

[mike57]

Skipton - Colne always feels like one of those closures that should never have happened. Had it survived no doubt it would be well used. The whole of this corner of Lancashire seems to have suffered, for a significant period the Copy Pit route only had a summer through service. Equally leaving Colne as a withered arm at the end of a branch on what was previously a through railway was typical of the short sighted out closures in the 60s.

I have to say I dont think it will reopen, politically its an area where there is no political 'mileage' to be made. Would there be through trains to Leeds, possibly not as electrifying the Preston Colne is going to add another big chunk of money to the scheme, so the Colne service extending to Skipton is most likely. Would it have a use as a freight route?

I cant imagine any Westminster politician of any party signing up to this..., and given the costs, its going to take buyin from Westminster. The Northumberland lines were already in existance, and politically the NE has been much more fickle through recent elections...

Sorry to labour the political points, but unless politicians get behind it properly (not just lip service and studies) then its not going to happen with in any foreseeable timescale.

 

[yorksrob]

Anyway, I’m looking forward to all the free beer people are going to buy me with the bet I laid 14 years ago on this forum that it wouldn’t be open before 2030. I bet they don’t pay up. I would have if I’d lost.

I'll pay up for your beer.

It will be for a pyrrhic victory highlighting the inability of the industry/state to make fairly modest extensions to the network anyway !

 

[Bald Rick]

Did anyone take your bet?

I'll pay up for your beer.

It will be for a pyrrhic victory highlighting the inability of the industry/state to make fairly modest extensions to the network anyway !

To be fair, I checked today and the bet was a challenge to the pressure group, and no one took me up on it. No courage in their convctions!

@yorksrob, I’ll let you off for being a good sport, but may well head to the Narrowboat in Skipton some point in 2030 when the bet has officially concluded, and I’ll let you know

 

[30907]

I cant imagine any Westminster politician of any party signing up to this..., and given the costs, its going to take buyin from Westminster. The Northumberland lines were already in existance, and politically the NE has been much more fickle through recent elections...

Actually several East Lancs MPs are or have been on board, though in one or two cases I feel the train is a convenient bandwagon

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair, I checked today and the bet was a challenge to the pressure group, and no one took me up on it. No courage in their convctions!

@yorksrob, I’ll let you off for being a good sport, but may well head to the Narrowboat in Skipton some point in 2030 when the bet has officially concluded, and I’ll let you know

To be fair, I had it in my mind that I'd engaged in a bet along those lines (albeit a long time ago) so it stands as far as I'm concerned !

 

[mike57]

I feel the train is a convenient bandwagon

Yes, exactly, lip service and studies...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Back when the route was open, what sort of longer distance traffic did it get? I mean in terms of how far beyond Skipton/Rose Grove the regular services tended to run?

One of the things that turned many pro-rail people against this particular project was the rather fanciful proclamations of the campaign group. Not least the freight side of things where things like the Drax biomass trains would have to cross the entire western throat of Leeds station- a problem which none of the pro crowd have been able to address, for a flow that almost certainly won't exist in ten years.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Back when the route was open, what sort of longer distance traffic did it get? I mean in terms of how far beyond Skipton/Rose Grove the regular services tended to run?

One of the things that turned many pro-rail people against this particular project was the rather fanciful proclamations of the campaign group. Not least the freight side of things where things like the Drax biomass trains would have to cross the entire western throat of Leeds station- a problem which none of the pro crowd have been able to address, for a flow that almost certainly won't exist in ten years.

Was just having a look at a 1959 timetable and the service was approximately 1TPH Colne to Skipton, taking approx 23 minutes. i think only 1 of these actually carried on to Leeds, though i could be reading the timetable wrong. Everything else appears to go to or from the west and finish at Colne. Again, could be misreading it

 

[52290]

Was just having a look at a 1959 timetable and the service was approximately 1TPH Colne to Skipton, taking approx 23 minutes. i think only 1 of these actually carried on to Leeds, though i could be reading the timetable wrong. Everything else appears to go to or from the west and finish at Colne. Again, could be misreading it

I went on an Easter Monday excursion getting on at Preston and going to York in the early 1960's. We had a black 5 to Skipton and a B1 to York, going via Otley and Harrogate. I repeated the trip in 1965 when the B1 was replaced by a brand new class 47.

 

[quantinghome]

There is some interesting history here: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/colne_and_skipton_line/index.shtml

It appears the route never achieved its apparent potential in connecting two large areas of population due to Colne being the border between the L&Y and Midland. Until nationalisation you had to change trains at Colne, and the timings were poor. It wasn't scheduled for closure in the Beeching report but was closed separately later on in the 60s with low passenger numbers cited.

 

[Starmill]

Very quickly:

Rule (1) is a population of 10,000+ not already connected to the network
Re (3) - there‘s the Skipton bypass, a dual carriageway in Colne, and the River Aire to get across, all of which require major structures, especially the latter two. Also the former trackbed has lots of obstructions and would likely require new build off line in places, for example around Earby.
Re (4) - extending the Skipton service to where, though? If beyond Colne, it needs much work on the existing netwrok.
Re (5) - regeneration is usually driven by connecting new places to the network (see rule 1), or by improving frequency.

So there’s some big question marks on all the factors.

I don't think in practice that 5 counts for as much under WebTAG (guidance for England) as it does under STAG (guidance for Scotland). That's to the very limited extent it factors into any of the UK's guidance.

If the scale of the regeneration were large enough, for example if Colne and Nelson were to roughly triple in size, and permission were readily granted without local opposition to many tens of thousands of new homes and other supporting services, you could argue for some transformational change benefits. However, this is Colne we're talking about.

 

[mike57]

There is some interesting history here: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/colne_and_skipton_line/index.shtml

That makes interesting reading. Thanks for posting

 

[Meerkat]

If there really was a market for this route you would think the A59 and/or the A6068 would have at least had some bypasses built.
Personally if there is money spare it would be better spent on improving the service to Blackburn and Preston, and the connections to the Copy Pit line,

 

[quantinghome]

If there really was a market for this route you would think the A59 and/or the A6068 would have at least had some bypasses built.

Is there a market for Sheffield to Manchester? Stocksbridge? Yes. But then... Steeton, Nelson...

Personally if there is money spare it would be better spent on improving the service to Blackburn and Preston, and the connections to the Copy Pit line,

I'm coming to the conclusion that developing a proper West Yorkshire - Lancashire service is the key consideration. They are two large population centres (a million a piece give or take), fairly close to each other, which are served by one train per hour (and for a while historically, nothing at all). This is an obvious weak link in the northern rail network. (If you think it's not a weak link, just consider the number of trains per hour between similarly-sized and distanced Glasgow and Edinburgh).

I would be happy for this to be addressed by increasing capacity on the existing Copy Pit / Calder Valley route, but the Calder Valley route is already busy. Popping another two trains per hour between Leeds and Todmorden is not a simple matter. It may well cost more than the £500m needed to reopen Skipton-Colne and upgrade Colne-Burnley.

 

[stevieinselby]

I'm coming to the conclusion that developing a proper West Yorkshire - Lancashire service is the key consideration. They are two large population centres (a million a piece give or take), fairly close to each other, which are served by one train per hour (and for a while historically, nothing at all). This is an obvious weak link in the northern rail network. (If you think it's not a weak link, just consider the number of trains per hour between similarly-sized and distanced Glasgow and Edinburgh).

The difficulty with increasing services between West Yorkshire and Lancashire is the need to stop trains at the border and do a full passport check

 

[quantinghome]

The difficulty with increasing services between West Yorkshire and Lancashire is the need to stop trains at the border and do a full passport check

You jest, but this is was not far off what they did until 1948. Colne was the boundary between two railway companies (one being, ironically, the Lancashire and Yorkshire) and there weren't any through services. Naturally the connection timings didn't work either.

 

[WAO]

.... and you couldn't buy a 2DR from Leeds (ER) to Liverpool (LMR) until the 1970's - you had to go through the barrier at Man Vic to buy the Liverpool ticket, or go to Thomas Cook who would sell you the split tickets.

WAO

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyway, I’m looking forward to all the free beer people are going to buy me with the bet I laid 14 years ago on this forum that it wouldn’t be open before 2030. I bet they don’t pay up. I would have if I’d lost.

Is it obligatory for "White Elephant" aspirational rail projects with not a realistic hope of opening to be resurrected every five years on websites?

 

[quantinghome]

Is it obligatory for "White Elephant" aspirational rail projects with not a realistic hope of opening to be resurrected every five years on websites?

The reason I started this thread was to discuss whether it's a White Elephant no-hoper basket case idea, or if there is in fact a rational case for reopening? Until recently I've dismissed it as a White Elephant. I'm not so sure now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The reason I started this thread was to discuss whether it's a White Elephant no-hoper basket case idea, or if there is in fact a rational case for reopening? Until recently I've dismissed it as a White Elephant. I'm not so sure now.

In the very short time that this new thread has been on the website, there has been many postings based upon what is the position in the year 2025.

 

[bluenoxid]

I don’t understand where 3 trains per hour Leeds-Blackburn has come from as the route is currently hourly. We must also remember that this area has a significant link with Manchester as well (road link is M65/A56/M66), which should be accounted for.

The most recent study suggested that extending an existing train from either Rochdale or Halifax to Blackburn was achievable with additional trains and crew. Both couldn’t be done together without work. Personally, I think the focus should be on making Leeds and Manchester twice hourly from Burnley.

 

[Grumpy]

Is there a market for Sheffield to Manchester? Stocksbridge? Yes. But then... Steeton, Nelson...


I'm coming to the conclusion that developing a proper West Yorkshire - Lancashire service is the key consideration. They are two large population centres (a million a piece give or take), fairly close to each other, which are served by one train per hour (and for a while historically, nothing at all). This is an obvious weak link in the northern rail network. (If you think it's not a weak link, just consider the number of trains per hour between similarly-sized and distanced Glasgow and Edinburgh).

I would be happy for this to be addressed by increasing capacity on the existing Copy Pit / Calder Valley route, but the Calder Valley route is already busy. Popping another two trains per hour between Leeds and Todmorden is not a simple matter. It may well cost more than the £500m needed to reopen Skipton-Colne and upgrade Colne-Burnley.

 

[Starmill]

The reason I started this thread was to discuss whether it's a White Elephant no-hoper basket case idea, or if there is in fact a rational case for reopening? Until recently I've dismissed it as a White Elephant. I'm not so sure now.

Is there a good case for extra capacity between Leeds and Preston, say? Yes, definitely. Is there a case for improved connectivity between some other parts of Yorkshire and other parts of Lancashire, especially if we look at the Sunday service and what can be achieved in just one change of trains? Yes, definitely.

Is a new line via Colne a good way to actually achieve either of those objectives? I think this is a clear no.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would be happy for this to be addressed by increasing capacity on the existing Copy Pit / Calder Valley route, but the Calder Valley route is already busy. Popping another two trains per hour between Leeds and Todmorden is not a simple matter. It may well cost more than the £500m needed to reopen Skipton-Colne and upgrade Colne-Burnley.

You could increase capacity via the Calder Valley quite easily by running some longer trains…

However running additional trains between Leeds and Todmorden is not that much of an intractable problem, except at Leeds, obviously. But then any extra trains to Leeds from Colne via Skipton would have similar issues.

Is it obligatory for "White Elephant" aspirational rail projects with not a realistic hope of opening to be resurrected every five years on websites?

Rather more frequently than that!


This is a classic proposal where the answer is “reopen x to y”, but the whole system consequences are not understood by the proposers. When these issues are explained, they are either ignored, noted but brushed over, or developed into something more grandiose, but without mention of how much it will cost and who is paying.

 

[Grumpy]

It's not quite true to say there is only 1 train/hour-there are 2 if you include a possible change at Todmorden.
As for alleged capacity problems, the existing trains are only 3 car sets and hardly crammed-the only times I've been on one remotely full was on a summer Saturday full of passengers heading for a day at Blackpool.
Meerkat's comment on the roads is valid-the roads from Skipton or Crosshills to Colne never seem particularly busy, although there are admittedly delays on the Colne by-pass. .

 

[InkyScrolls]

I like looking into possible timetables for these sorts of suggestions, and if one were content with 1 tph to Preston, and a 75 mph linespeed on the reopened section, then the following timings would be feasible:-

• Colne xx34 from Preston (as at present)
• Earby xx40
• Skipton xx47 to Leeds (as at present)

• Skipton xx37 from Leeds (as at present)
• Earby xx44
• Colne xx51 to Preston (as at present)

So by double tracking the new section as far as Earby, you wouldn't even need additional services down the Aire Valley - the timings line up pretty well with the current services in both directions.