Show railcard immediately - what are the rules?

[Starmill]

I'd interpret "on demand" as that when you're asked for it you immediately start going about the act of arranging its production, be that a physical card from a bag or a digital one on a phone rather than go to the toilet or the buffet car first. Not that it has to be instant, nothing in the legislation says that and "de minimis non curat lex" - the law does not contain itself with trifles, namely the precise number of seconds.

Exactly. I agree with this, although the expression appears to be "when asked" rather than on demand but I still agree with your conclusions.

 

[Wolfie]

Clearly it cannot be entirely at the convenience of the customer but the wording equally does not imply instantly. If that were the case then surely someone who fails to have their ticket in their hand and has to ferret it out of a wallet is liable to prosecution or a Penalty Fare? If someone has switched their phone off to preserve battery and then needs a minute to switch it on and load a ticket would also be liable for prosecution or a Penalty Fare? Those would seem very unsatisfactory and surely not the intent behind the provisions of the relevant law?

If that was the intent surely, for instance, Byelaw 17/18 would be worded:



(Emphasis added)

Instead it simply says "when asked" and is silent on the matter of how long you have "when asked" to present those documents for inspection and verification. Clearly you cannot just go on and on waiting for a passenger to produce a railcard, ticket or whatever else is required but equally I do not see how it is sustainable to argue that if you do not instantly present the required documentation you're immediately liable for prosecution is sustainable either.

Indeed I've never seen revenue protection take such a draconian approach with passengers. Usually the response is either "I'll come back to you" and then they check the rest of the carriage/train and return when the passenger has got the ticket or whatever ready for inspection. Everyone moves on with their life. Or they say "That's fine I'll wait" and then after a minute or two waiting the passenger produces the the necessaries and again everyone moves on. I can never recall seeing revenue protection taking such an extreme approach. Which is logical as it's clearly bonkers.

Exactly. I was ticket inspected by RPIs on an LNWR service from Euston to Birmingham recently. The very first thing that they said was "don't panic, we know that the WiFi is dire on the WCML".

 

[Starmill]

It really doesn’t help that some of the railcards are a pain to load in some of the apps and can genuinely take a minute or two to load up. There’s no physical alternative to the 26-30 one ether.

Agreed. In the trainline app there appears to be no way to pin the railcard to your home screen, you can only pin the full app. But after that opens you have to select account and may have to scroll down slightly to open the railcard by a further two taps.

In the past some people have suggested, for android anyway, leaving the trainline app open in the background at the railcard page. I find if I do that it gets itself mixed up and goes back to home page. So it isn't really any quicker. Maybe it's smoother in the Apple implementation, I don't know. Unlike tickets the railcard can't be printed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. In the trainline app there appears to be no way to pin the railcard to your home screen, you can only pin the full app. But after that opens you have to select account and may have to scroll down slightly to open the railcard by a further two taps.

In the past some people have suggested, for android anyway, leaving the trainline app open in the background at the railcard page. I find if I do that it gets itself mixed up and goes back to home page. So it isn't really any quicker. Maybe it's smoother in the Apple implementation, I don't know. Unlike tickets the railcard can't be printed.

Railcards in Trainline are a pain, probably in order to encourage you to buy tickets from them (where it's one tap from the e-ticket, or two if it's in Apple Wallet). Mine is presently in there but only because that's the only place you can have the free Monzo one.

 

[ainsworth74]

I have some questions:

1) Is it true I have to show railcard immediately on demand ? The apps can be unreliable due to internet connection issues etc , it hardly seems unreasonable to ask for five minutes to find the railcard !

As you can see from the above the general consensus is no you do not.

2) Is there a place I can complain about the officer? I really feel his behaviour was very inappropriate, and was quite upset. He was really very aggressive and rude - anyone with a shred of humanity would allow 5 minutes to find a railcard. My girlfriend is foreign and can struggle with English in stressful situations, and if I wasn’t there she would probably have ended up paying the fine due to his bullying behaviour… There are signs up all over the train (rightly) saying not to abuse staff - but apparently it’s acceptable for staff to abuse customers? It seems to me that this officer works the job simply for the opportunity to bully passengers…

You can complain to the train operator of the service who you were travelling on. Possibly LNWR? If you'd like us to help you draft a complaint please feel free to post your first attempt and we'll offer some guidance.

But just to be clear I assume that your girlfriend didn't actually have her details taken it was just the way the ticket check was carried out that was the problem?

 

[Starmill]

Railcards in Trainline are a pain, probably in order to encourage you to buy tickets from them (where it's one tap from the e-ticket, or two if it's in Apple Wallet). Mine is presently in there but only because that's the only place you can have the free Monzo one.

I assume so. The chances of me paying a fee to book a ticket the night before are somewhere between zero and zero but they must get that racket on with some people.

 

[Snow1964]

I'd interpret "on demand" as that when you're asked for it you immediately start going about the act of arranging its production, be that a physical card from a bag or a digital one on a phone rather than go to the toilet or the buffet car first. Not that it has to be instant, nothing in the legislation says that and "de minimis non curat lex" - the law does not contain itself with trifles, namely the precise number of seconds.

Agree, I don't believe it has to be instant, but process of showing it must be commenced.

Asking for 5 minutes is not the way it is worded either, customer would be expected to produce a ticket (and if choosing to store a ticket digitally), be able to open the digital wallet or app promptly. Shouldn't really take any longer than opening a physical purse or wallet, which would be deemed reasonable time.

Not having any idea where you might have stored it digitally and having to take ages is not really comply with the Regulation of Railways Act of showing on demand.
If Ops friend knowingly don't know where their railcard was (rather than forgotten it), was chancing buying a discounted ticket

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not having any idea where you might have stored it digitally and having to take ages is not really comply with the Railways Act of showing on demand.

What is the Railways Act and where does it say something must be shown on demand?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Not having any idea where you might have stored it digitally and having to take ages is not really comply with the Railways Act of showing on demand.
If Ops friend knowingly don't know where their railcard was (rather than forgotten it), was chancing buying a discounted ticket

I don't have a digital Railcard, but can they be stored so as to be available for display regardless of an internet connection? I think that's true of tickets if you download them.

 

[Thames99]

The bylaws quoted in post #4 merely refer to 'tickets' and were no doubt written well before the age of railcards. Are there other parts of the regulations that are more recent and stipulate railcards as well?

If the old bylaws are being relied on, the OP's girlfriend complied with them straight away.

 

[jawr256]

What do we think of this from the railcard terms and conditions? This seems to add a requirement to be able to show the railcard throughout the journey. Clearly this is not always practical for reasons discussed above, but could explain the inspector's approach.

https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/

2.8. You must carry your valid Railcard with you on your journey. When asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard within its period of validity when you travel.

[...]

2.8.3. If you have a digital Railcard, you must be able to show it on a mobile device throughout your journey.

[...]

2.10. If you fail to comply with condition 2.7, 2.8 and/or 2.9, the Train Company reserves the right to charge you the full price for the single fare applicable to your journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey. In some cases you may also be issued with a Penalty Fare. If you are using your Railcard to get discounts for another person, they will also be charged the full price for the applicable single fare for their journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey. In some cases they may also be issued with a Penalty Fare.

 

[driverd]

Ultimately, this will all come down to a judges interperitation of the law, should it ever get taken that far.

Our thoughts about the strict interperitation of the law vs the more practical applications of it are all quite moot, as nothing in any of the legislation dictates a timescale.

In all probability the courts would find in a passengers favour, as the man/woman in the curly wig tends to employ a reasonable amount of common sense. If someone has a railcard and just takes a little while to retrieve it, I don't think anyone in their right mind could allege that this is some type of offence, as whilst the word of the legislation may be debatable, the spirit of the legislation is to penalise fare evasion, not forgetfulness.

 

[Haywain]

I don't have a digital Railcard, but can they be stored so as to be available for display regardless of an internet connection?

Yes. I use the Trainsplit app with a railcard held there and it will be available to show without a connection to the outside world as long as I haven't left it too long since opening it. I generally check my railcard before traveling anyway.

Clearly this is not always practical for reasons discussed above

What reasons are these? Most apps will, as far as I know, show the railcard without needing connectivity as long as it is already loaded.

 

[jawr256]

What reasons are these? Most apps will, as far as I know, show the railcard without needing connectivity as long as it is already loaded.

I was just being mindful of the experiences in posts #16 and #30 which suggest that railcards can be slow to load in some cases.

 

[redreni]

That would be an utterly and impractically perverse interpretation.

Go on legislation.gov.uk and run a word search for "immediately". You'll see lots of results.

If these bylaws meant immediately, they would say immediately.

It says on request. And if we're quoting AI, Google has this to say about the meaning of "on request" in statutes:

In "on request" statutory construction, a phrase like "on request" in a statute generally means that the action or information is only required when a specific party (often a government authority) makes a formal request for it, and not that it is a mandatory, ongoing duty without a trigger. This construction focuses on whether the language creates a discretionary power or a mandatory obligation, often involving a process of providing documents or taking action after a formal request is made.

Key Aspects of "On Request" Statutory Construction

• Triggering Event:
  The key element is the formal request itself. The obligation to act or provide information arises only when a relevant party requests it.

Now, of course, I agree it would be unworkable if the RPI went round the train saying "tickets please" and people were thanking him for his request and assuring him they would get back to him within 14 to 21 days, even though that is of course what happens in lots of cases where a person or organisation is under a statutory duty to provide something "on request".

It must depend on context and on what is reasonable in the circumstances.

What we need are pragmatic people who can distinguish between people trying it on and people who are genuinely flustered and struggling to find something.

 

[island]

Clearly the requirement cannot be to produce a railcard within zero seconds and equally clearly it cannot be an open-ended period. It will inevitably depend on the circumstances, and a court hearing a case will want to hear from the passenger and the railway officer as to what happened. Trying to prescribe a single blanket time limit is futile.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Ultimately, this will all come down to a judges interperitation of the law, should it ever get taken that far.

Generally speaking, there is some law that might be used as a guidance. For instance, in contract law, if an agreement doesn't stipulate a time period, then "reasonable time" comes into play, which is where each situation is taken on its merits. Given that a digital railcard requires an internet signal in order to produce one, it's very unlikely that a judge would agree with the interpretation that it must be produced 'immediately'. "on request" is also defined in other parts of law as being 'within a reasonable period of time', so for instance, on request is interpreted as requiring action as soon as is reasonably practicable, not necessarily immediately.

There is no specific case law relating to this point, but general case law does suggest that a standard of reasonableness should be applied. I think any judge would be likely to deem five minutes as entirely reasonable, especially given the problems with mobile telecommunications on a moving train. Having said that, I'd bet good money that the case would never reach the courts, because there would be the potential issue of precedent being set in a manner that would be most unfavourable to the railway.

In strict liability cases, such as in the requirement to produce a railcard on demand, there is a concept of "reasonable excuse" in case law. Someone who is trying to produce a digital railcard and can't because of a lack of signal / lack of available wifi would likely have a reasonable excuse, because there's nothing in the digital railcard literature that requires you to do anything other than load the railcard up on demand.

If the digital railcards had to be produced 'immediately', then they would be available offline through one of the wallet apps.

 

[TUC]

I've seen plenty of occasions when the guard or conductor has said they'll pop back in a couple of minutes after they've checked some more tickets in the same carriage. That seems a far more pragmatic approach than some of the legalists here.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Railcards in Trainline are a pain, probably in order to encourage you to buy tickets from them

Still, I got to mine in ten seconds from unlocking the phone. Would take longer of course in an unfamiliar app. I think it would be wise to know where the Railcard lives, and I'm not sure how any of it can take five minutes, but at the same time bullying behaviour can't be tolerated, maybe they had cameras on them, it's worth a complaint. Another announcement for SWR perhaps? (Although I have met their revenue protection people - a work meeting! - and was very impressed, it can't be an easy job.)

Most apps will, as far as I know, show the railcard without needing connectivity as long as it is already loaded.

I think it was one of the requirements for any digital Railcard retailer. Maybe the apps check every day, I don't remember. Internet availability has nothing to do with this - as for eTickets

 

[father_jack]

Still, I got to mine in ten seconds from unlocking the phone. Would take longer of course in an unfamiliar app. I think it would be wise to know where the Railcard lives, and I'm not sure how any of it can take five minutes, but at the same time bullying behaviour can't be tolerated, maybe they had cameras on them, it's worth a complaint. SNIPPED....

Go back years to when most tickets were sold at the window- "my railcard is at the very bottom of my very big bag", queue down the street, huffing puffing and blowing the house down ensues, those in the queue ranting, railcard eventually extracted, oh out of date how surprising.

"Tickets and railcards please" means wakey wakey and have your stuff ready. Do they queue up at the airport gate with the phone turned off to start showing the boarding pass or do they have the passport "at the bottom of the bag" when they're getting checked on to the plane ? Or do they get to the front of the queue for Oasis (other noise is available) "shur I'll turn on my phone now and wait for it to load up" when it suits me and the nasty man can wait with 40 thousand behind me in the queue. Because it's the railway should things be different ???

"Bullying" ? We have one side of a story here. "Rude"= not saying what someone wants to hear......

 

[alistairlees]

Go back years to when most tickets were sold at the window- "my railcard is at the very bottom of my very big bag", queue down the street, huffing puffing and blowing the house down ensues, those in the queue ranting, railcard eventually extracted, oh out of date how surprising.

"Tickets and railcards please" means wakey wakey and have your stuff ready. Do they queue up at the airport gate with the phone turned off to start showing the boarding pass or do they have the passport "at the bottom of the bag" when they're getting checked on to the plane ? Or do they get to the front of the queue for Oasis (other noise is available) "shur I'll turn on my phone now and wait for it to load up" when it suits me and the nasty man can wait with 40 thousand behind me in the queue. Because it's the railway should things be different ???

"Bullying" ? We have one side of a story here. "Rude"= not saying what someone wants to hear......

Do any of those run their own private prosecutions?

 

[Llandudno]

I wonder if one of the responders to the OP concerns ‘trained’ the RPI in question…..?

 

[MotCO]

If the digital railcards had to be produced 'immediately', then they would be available offline through one of the wallet apps.

Why aren't they available to load into wallets, which would surely be the easiest way to be able to retrieve and show within a reasonable time-frame? Is it to avoid the possibility of cloning? Why are other (non-railway) tickets suitable to be placed in a wallet without the risk of cloning?

 

[wildcard]

I think Bletchleyite has this right. On request you should start the process of locating and presenting your railcard. People could use the word 'immediately' to describe this action. Most people would understand 'immediate' in this sense doesn't mean the card has to be before the RPI's eyes in milliseconds but 'with haste'. If the faff continues, the RPI then needs make the decision whether the passenger is deliberately prevaricating or not.

 

[Haywain]

Why aren't they available to load into wallets, which would surely be the easiest way to be able to retrieve and show within a reasonable time-frame? Is it to avoid the possibility of cloning? Why are other (non-railway) tickets suitable to be placed in a wallet without the risk of cloning?

I think it's been discussed elsewhere that the wallets don't allow photographs to be attached.

 

[Cantab26]

The bylaws quoted in post #4 merely refer to 'tickets' and were no doubt written well before the age of railcards. Are there other parts of the regulations that are more recent and stipulate railcards as well?

If the old bylaws are being relied on, the OP's girlfriend complied with them straight away.

The current railway byelaws were made in 2005, so not “well before the age of railcards”.

The definition of a “ticket” in the byelaws is sufficiently broad to encompass a railcard.

There is nothing in this line of argument.

 

[father_jack]

I think it's been discussed elsewhere that the wallets don't allow photographs to be attached.

It's not that but it's the hologram on the railcard needs to be moving to make it genuine. A wallet doesn't have a live connection.

While doing tickets I've seen some railcard apps opened and then with sleight of hand a photo of railcard with the holders photo and date changed shown..... The scan tells the truth though.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but I don't use an app for a Railcard. I prefer to have a physical railcard and a physical ticket, both of which are on a table in front of me, waiting and indeed hoping someone comes along and checks it, thereby throwing out people who don't have a First Class ticket.
However, no sign of a check or the complimentary food service on this train, so feel like I've wasted my money.
(Bit off topic, but earlier on today I purchased a ticket from Euston at an Avanti ticket machine. I was surprised to see it offered to load it onto a smart card. So I put it on my Southern KeyGo card. The person on the barrier, was suspicious of the card (to be fair, it is well worn) and then had to load what was on my card and then go through the tickets to find the right one. Took longer than reading a physical ticket).

 

[jfollows]

I don’t mind e-tickets but I always use a physical railcard.
The railcard fits easily in my wallet, I know that some of them are digital-only and some people don’t want to carry a wallet, but neither applies to me.
I often present my railcard without being asked, but when I don’t I’m often not asked for it.
I expect my railcard-discounted ticket to be valid only if I can present both ticket and railcard when asked. I don’t trust online railcards to do this.

 

[ainsworth74]

Though of course holders of a 26-30 Railcard have no choice in the matter...