Should Whelan Resign?

[pompeyfan]

I can't see drivers going full stop. They're still on the Underground, and there's always someone on DLR that can step in.

I never said drivers would disappear, and of course in the UK I can see us taking far longer than elsewhere.

The point was, just as Black Cab drivers with the Knowledge now have new competition, a train driver may require less training in the future and once a job becomes a little easier, and drivers considered more expendable, their power will reduce.

Heck, I'm in a union. I am aware of changes that will affect my career in the future (something I'm already actively looking at mitigating by perhaps doing something else). I can pretend otherwise, but I'm only kidding myself.

I didn't say any of this to somehow attack the union, or drivers. Far from it. The unions will indeed fight to protect their members, and so they should. Most industries should. But changes will happen, there's no doubt.

It's fine I never took your comment to mean that, I agree that to some respect automation will eventually creep its way onto the mainline network, my only concern is that if a driver is driving at 100+ mph for 30 odd minutes, they're likely to have complete concentration, if automation does take over, then surely they're less likely to maintain full concentration? Just a though. I realise this isn't currently relevant.

 

[philthetube]

There is a certain feeling down on the coast that he may not be welcome here and whispers that ASLEF membership may drop and RMT's may climb. I've never seen such an angry bunch.

If this is the case across Southern then the strike will go on.

 

[BestWestern]

The tasks are safety critical, the guard is not as a train could operate in DOO mode.

You are muddling your personal opinion with fact.

By definition, the role of Guard is safety critical. In every situation where a Guard exists they are safety critical. If they are not safety critical, their job is not that of a Guard. Whether you feel they are necessary or not has no bearing on that whatsoever.

 

[Harvey G]

Very difficult situation - Whelan appears to be trying to resolve issues - commendable and welcomed by the thousands of serious disgruntled Southern users, but at what cost to him and ASLEF?
More needed from GTR here I think - what would be wrong with the Guard being maintained to close doors and the Driver would open them as per the agreement reached with ScotRail? No Guard, service cancelled.

Harvey

 

[AlterEgo]

Very difficult situation - Whelan appears to be trying to resolve issues - commendable and welcomed by the thousands of serious disgruntled Southern users, but at what cost to him and ASLEF?
More needed from GTR here I think - what would be wrong with the Guard being maintained to close doors and the Driver would open them as per the agreement reached with ScotRail? No Guard, service cancelled.

Harvey

Because GTR are mandated to introduce DOO as part of their franchise. End of. They have been told to eliminate the guard.

 

[jon0844]

It's fine I never took your comment to mean that, I agree that to some respect automation will eventually creep its way onto the mainline network, my only concern is that if a driver is driving at 100+ mph for 30 odd minutes, they're likely to have complete concentration, if automation does take over, then surely they're less likely to maintain full concentration? Just a though. I realise this isn't currently relevant.

Exact same problem for cars, where we've got some vehicles (e.g. Tesla) that has seen drivers take their eyes off the road - relying on technology that's not quite there yet.. and when it is, supposedly means a driver won't need to be in a position to do anything at all.

I guess pilots still need to be alert for something happening mid-flight, but of course there's more than one person. A train driver would be expected to be alert too, but what's to say they won't get tired (uneventful driving always makes me feel less alert, and often requires more breaks) or take their eyes off the track to begin daydreaming?

These will no doubt form arguments for and against by unions and Governments around the world. It's going to happen though, even if not in all of our lifetimes.

Perhaps by then the railway will have become even more 'controlled' and secure (entry doors perhaps). Foot and road crossings long gone. Pretty much no reason for anyone to be on the tracks (and those authorised would work within areas 'known' by the trains). Laws changed to deal with trespassers. New lines constructed that were for such a system from day one...

 

[bramling]

Exact same problem for cars, where we've got some vehicles (e.g. Tesla) that has seen drivers take their eyes off the road - relying on technology that's not quite there yet.. and when it is, supposedly means a driver won't need to be in a position to do anything at all.

I guess pilots still need to be alert for something happening mid-flight, but of course there's more than one person. A train driver would be expected to be alert too, but what's to say they won't get tired (uneventful driving always makes me feel less alert, and often requires more breaks) or take their eyes off the track to begin daydreaming?

These will no doubt form arguments for and against by unions and Governments around the world. It's going to happen though, even if not in all of our lifetimes.

Perhaps by then the railway will have become even more 'controlled' and secure (entry doors perhaps). Foot and road crossings long gone. Pretty much no reason for anyone to be on the tracks (and those authorised would work within areas 'known' by the trains). Laws changed to deal with trespassers. New lines constructed that were for such a system from day one...

I'm not sure it's even a case of it *will* happen. Sure, it *could* happen. It could happen today. The issue is that there are disbenefits associated with it, and the question is whether the benefits will ever outweigh those disbenefits to a sufficient degree to make it worthwhile. The automated systems we have today are actually surprisingly close to being on the wrong side of that tipping point, as anyone who uses the Jubilee Line from Stanmore to Finchley Road will be aware from the painfully slow running! All the issues of the mainline network swing that tipping point even further in favour of the driver.

 

[jon0844]

I think it could happen on the railway today, technology wise, but not for all the other reasons. New trains, everything on the ground being replaced and upgraded. Protecting the lines better etc.

So, it couldn't actually happen now without more money thrown at it than could EVER be possible. HS2 isn't driverless and look how long that's taken to start happening.

But in 10-20 years, I am sure there will be systems built and in operation around the world. We'll perhaps have a Government looking to see how that could be implemented here, perhaps for new routes that will be deemed cheaper on the basis that they're automated.

I don't think we'll be able to have fully driverless vehicles (that is no driver at the wheel at all, and the car taking ALL the decisions itself with no override) until roads become more closed.. which suggests to me that one day, they won't be able to mix with cars driven manually, so people who like driving will be told they can't - for safety reasons.

The argument is always that a computer won't make a mistake a person would. That's debatable (and a hot topic in the motor industry) but then again, so is the argument over DOO... (phew, just about got back on topic there!).

 

[Carntyne]

Because GTR are mandated to introduce DOO as part of their franchise. End of. They have been told to eliminate the guard.

So were ScotRail and look how that's changed.

 

[pompeyfan]

Very difficult situation - Whelan appears to be trying to resolve issues - commendable and welcomed by the thousands of serious disgruntled Southern users, but at what cost to him and ASLEF?
More needed from GTR here I think - what would be wrong with the Guard being maintained to close doors and the Driver would open them as per the agreement reached with ScotRail? No Guard, service cancelled.

Harvey

That is exactly how Southern have operated since the introduction of the 377s, the driver releases the doors (which has occasionally led to wrong side releases and stop shorts, however the 377 ASDO system is done by coach, like the 458/5s).

There only appear to be 2 buttons in the GOP, door close and signal bell) I was on a guard operated service last year and she hadn't realised until after closing all the doors that she had a couple of minutes dwell time, she had to sheepishly buzz up the driver and ask him to re-release.

 

[AlterEgo]

So were ScotRail and look how that's changed.

Can you show me where in their franchise spec Abellio were mandated to remove the guard?

 

[cjmillsnun]

So were ScotRail and look how that's changed.

The Scottish government were willing to allow reasonable negotiation allowing ScotRail and RMT to come to a reasonable solution. HMG is a different matter

 

[HH]

The Scottish government were willing to allow reasonable negotiation allowing ScotRail and RMT to come to a reasonable solution. HMG is a different matter

I don't think that it's official government policy. Everything I hear tells me that it's actually a Wilkinson "Crusade"; no doubt he is getting support from higher up, but they're not telling him what to do.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I don't think that it's official government policy. Everything I hear tells me that it's actually a Wilkinson "Crusade"; no doubt he is getting support from higher up, but they're not telling him what to do.

Chris Grayling's opinion would suggest that Wilkinson has the full support of HMG

 

[Legzr1]

Whoever said full network? I'm sure in 20 years, there will be trains that may well have a driver up front (sincerely hope so) but won't have to be actively driving a train at all.

I may be wrong on the times (God, I gave a range of 10 years so it was hardly supposed to be specific) but you tell me it's not going to happen or be possible anywhere in the world, and that it won't happen here and ultimately one day - everywhere.

I have no doubt that, at some point in the future, we'll see a form of transport resembling what we call 'trains' today operating without staff.

But, it doesn't fill me with dread as we'll both be long gone.

Your range of 10-20 years has now gone to 'ultimately one day'.

Your bets, hedge them much?

 

[HH]

Chris Grayling's opinion would suggest that Wilkinson has the full support of HMG

He has the support of Grayling for the moment; a bit like Claudio Ranieri has the full support of the Leicester FC Board...

 

[Chrisgr31]

Whether he should resign is I assume dependent on the outcome of the driver vote. Personally, and as a passenger, I expect it to be close and wouldn't be surprised if the drivers vote against.

I think the reality is that the staff and unions have been played very well by GTR and DfT. The RMT started the action little realising how long it was going to take until ASLEF could get involved. By the time ASLEF had got involved GTR had been able to introduce, under duress, the OBS role so it was to an extent fait accompli.

Personally I believe that for dispatch you need a 2nd pair of eyes, and that those eyes can see the external side of the train on departure and stop it if necessary. However I also believe it is common sense that there should be a second member of staff on board to deal with any incidents.

Now it may be there are occasions where you can do without those people because after all the risk of any incident on a single service is very small. However those occasions where you can do without them have to be carefully defined and it looks to me as if the agreement that has been made does not define them sufficiently.

That is where I believe any issue is, and that will be why the staff vote no (if they do) and that is why Whelan should consider his position if they do.

However I expect if they vote against it will be spun that they want more money etc.

 

[tsr]

Very difficult situation - Whelan appears to be trying to resolve issues - commendable and welcomed by the thousands of serious disgruntled Southern users, but at what cost to him and ASLEF?
More needed from GTR here I think - what would be wrong with the Guard being maintained to close doors and the Driver would open them as per the agreement reached with ScotRail? No Guard, service cancelled.

Harvey

That is exactly how Southern have operated since the introduction of the 377s, the driver releases the doors (which has occasionally led to wrong side releases and stop shorts, however the 377 ASDO system is done by coach, like the 458/5s).

There only appear to be 2 buttons in the GOP, door close and signal bell) I was on a guard operated service last year and she hadn't realised until after closing all the doors that she had a couple of minutes dwell time, she had to sheepishly buzz up the driver and ask him to re-release.

This has already been discussed to death on the Southern DOO thread, but...

When working with a conductor, drivers release doors on 377s, 313s, 442s and (on the Marshlink route ONLY) the 2-coach 171s. Thus a Scotrail-type deal would not allow any variation from what previously happened as standard on most Southern units anyway.

Conductors cannot and never have been able to release doors (except obviously with emergency egress handles) on 377s. They don't have the training or equipment available to do it.

Conductors have to release the doors when working 455s (as they lock out the driver's panel by carrying out any operations) and on 171s between London Bridge and East Croydon/Uckfield (because of the door deselect system being wired such that only conductors can operate it on this route), as well as on a select few Marshlink trains. Conductors have been retained at several depots specifically to do this, as well as dispatch 313s, for which no DOO dispatch equipment is provided on the Southern network.

I ought to have had that as a "copy-and-paste" preset reply by now...


Now for the bit which is as-yet unique to this post and probably actually relevant here...

Up until more Southern routes started to go DOO over the last couple of years*, a Class 377 train would already have been cancelled on many of the longer-distance routes if the conductor wasn't present, but not because they were opening doors. It was simply the case that the bulk of the assessments for DOO(P) (P= Passenger) operation weren't carried out on most routes beyond the Southern "Metro" and BML area when 377s were originally introduced across the network over a decade ago. By far one of the most challenging issues was with station lighting and dispatch staffing. The introduction of 377 DOO(P) on further routes has seen huge numbers of test trains running, often with drivers released on special night-turn rosters and with at least 4 or 5 staff per train, with fluctuating results at each station. Lighting has had to be constantly tweaked, and on some lines, the planned rollout had to be postponed around the time of 1 January this year, with some of the problems only just resolved to some basic degree. Compared to this, issues such as clear cess evacuation routes and GSM-R reception have looked quite easy...

I have no doubt that this must have been a hideously costly exercise and GTR have probably only done it because they've been desperate not to risk further problems with the terms of their management contract, already under fire for performance and AIUI possibly fare evasion. But for those working in the long run (the long-term consultants, ahem, and those behind the scenes at the DfT, and so on), this has been a remarkably straightforward but lengthy game. You had 377s equipped with compliant bodyside cameras, even if they appear to be roughly half the quality of what you'd find on a cheap mobile phone from the early 2000s. You had a network getting busier and busier where the slightest cancellation would cause dissent and congestion. And you had drivers who had mostly been trained and contracted to work DOO(P) anyway. Lastly, all the extra kit might have been expensive but it didn't need new standards to be created, or new inventions to be made. There's only so far you can spec a lamppost, and I've been there, done that.

It was only a matter of time until ASLEF and the RMT had to face up to the challenge of trying to convince the DfT, franchise/contract holder and the travelling public that the effects of doing more DOO assessments - and getting the relevant people to sign it off - was a bad idea. This was always coming, it was just a matter of time. LM, Southeastern and SWT have a harder task, to give three London-centric examples, as their routes do not always match up with stock with bodyside cameras (in SWT's case, very, very rarely!) or appropriate revenue collection, or other technical issues. But Southern is a bit of a test-bed because a halt could only be called by the political collision between unions, government/contractors, and passenger sympathies. So far, it clearly hasn't been. The passengers are either just enough on the side of the government to try to carry on propping up the economy through thick and thin, or else have to carry on commuting because in this specific area of the South-East (central & eastern Surrey, and central Sussex, in particular) you have way too few motorways to give you a choice. The unions, having failed to build up a case against DOO or carry out resistance for so long, have floundered. And the government has hidden behind GTR, and would have the public backing even if they got rid of them, given the cries for renationalising the railways.

I suppose we have to be grateful that a company with better HR & PR skills didn't get the TSGN contract which GTR currently have. Perhaps the rollout would have been stealthier. Perhaps OBSs would have maintained guard competencies, so it couldn't be claimed they weren't trained or licensed. Perhaps the old BML DOO agreement could have had more stations added to it, with changes in job titles. Perhaps retained conductors would have been rebadged as OBSs and therefore the publicly-visible boundaries would have been blurred between which staff could and could not actually help in emergencies. Perhaps there would have been no protests until a cover-up came to light, too late.

But in all this lies the tragedy. Before this current dispute, a great deal was being done to get conductors to showcase their skills. Some of Southern's conductor training schemes have been very good, others a bit baffling, but the case was broadly in their favour. To paraphrase a post which I think has been lost in the mists of forum history, it's really quite rare to meet a bad Southern conductor. These people were trained well by people who brought good ideas from inside and outside the industry, and worked so hard and gave their all to make the railway safer, often in ways which couldn't be captured with financial statistics. And now their morale has crumbled and their unions haven't fought until it's been too late, bringing them out on strike after failing to properly promote them when they did their job well. The safety benefits of a good conductor are so great that I fear this corner of the country will see a major accident, fire, or mass-fatality self-evacuation before too long. You halve the risk of somebody not being there to take charge if you can guarantee someone with this competency on every train, especially some of the longest commuter trains in the country, often crammed with people travelling from the world's biggest single-runway-operated airport. It's madness, but not just from the DfT or GTR side. This could have won the debate about the effects of DOO dispatch compromising the availability of staff who also had other safety training, but the unions didn't really take that opportunity until an RMT dossier which seemed to come too late, buried under a pile of ranting press releases.


And now for the asterisk:

* What I would point out, contrary to what the ASLEF/GTR proposed agreement would have you believe, is that the extension of DOO(P) began long before the date of 21 August 2016. In fact, it started with Reigate and Tonbridge services routinely running DOO between Redhill/East Croydon and London Victoria at the preceding timetable change, instead of occasional DOO within the Metro area with its full-time station staffing; with the successive recasts of BML services which saw predominantly DOO operations on a Monday-Saturday basis; and before that, in the latter days of pre-GTR Southern, it was extended from South Croydon to Sanderstead, and on Guildford services from Sutton to Leatherhead. The rollout has gone on for much longer than anybody much is willing to publicise, including by the unions. This, in itself, is demoralising, and it's no wonder some GTR staff would tell you that there was a decrease in job satisfaction about the time this was happening. It's not been a good thing for these routes, and passengers have not appreciated not finding anybody to help them onboard.

 

[Robertj21a]

Wow ! - excellent. Great post.

Thank you.

 

[XDM]

Chris Grayling's opinion would suggest that Wilkinson has the full support of HMG

Correct,Peter Wilkinson is highly regarded by HMG & he & the civil service highly regard Mr Grayling. Mrs May has been briefed on Southern several times recently and backs both Peter Wilkinson & her minister.
Of course Mr Whelan should not resign. If any of the anti DOO armchair posters here had run the negotiations instead of Mr Whelan they would have come to the same deal or faced non momentum Southern drivers refusing to strike again. What south coast drivers say to guard "Sarah" in one thing,what they think privately, or say away from guards is another. "Sarah" should not take what the two anonymous momentum drivers say here as representative.

 

[LowLevel]

Correct,Peter Wilkinson is highly regarded by HMG & he & the civil service highly regard Mr Grayling. Mrs May has been briefed on Southern several times recently and backs both Peter Wilkinson & her minister.
Of course Mr Whelan should not resign. If any of the anti DOO armchair posters here had run the negotiations instead of Mr Whelan they would have come to the same deal or faced non momentum Southern drivers refusing to strike again. What south coast drivers say to guard "Sarah" in one thing,what they think privately, or say away from guards is another. "Sarah" should not take what the two anonymous momentum drivers say here as representative.

Train drivers with 'Momentum'?! What are you smoking? Leadership aside the railway unions are among the least politicised I've ever come across. One of the local depots round here has an RMT LLC formed entirely of Tories including a local elections candidate

No gives a flying sausage about political parties so you can forget that with your daft 'Lord Haw Haw/Comical Ali' toned postings.

 

[sarahj]

Train drivers with 'Momentum'?! What are you smoking? Leadership aside the railway unions are among the least politicised I've ever come across. One of the local depots round here has an RMT LLC formed entirely of Tories including a local elections candidate

No gives a flying sausage about political parties so you can forget that with your daft 'Lord Haw Haw/Comical Ali' toned postings.

I just love the fact that I'm "Sarah".

 

[tsr]

Correct,Peter Wilkinson is highly regarded by HMG & he & the civil service highly regard Mr Grayling.

In a matter of direct influence on operational safety, it's rather better to have credibility amongst the workforce, whose employer the government provides, and passengers, for whom the service should be run.

In any case, and whatever the context, I speak to GTR's staff and passengers for a not inconsiderable portion of my employment. None of them speak highly of Peter Wilkinson. Few speak highly of Chris Grayling. Almost every member of staff has heard of both, and many passengers are quite clued up too.

Mrs May has been briefed on Southern several times recently and backs both Peter Wilkinson & her minister.

I do wonder where that briefing comes from, and what spin it has.

Unlike previous Prime Ministers, it would not seem that she regularly takes time to see the network for herself, being important in that it has one of the most significant industrial relations disputes of modern history, as well as terrific potential if handled properly... so her personal experience must be lacking.

Of course Mr Whelan should not resign. If any of the anti DOO armchair posters here had run the negotiations instead of Mr Whelan they would have come to the same deal or faced non momentum Southern drivers refusing to strike again. What south coast drivers say to guard "Sarah" in one thing,what they think privately, or say away from guards is another. "Sarah" should not take what the two anonymous momentum drivers say here as representative.

I'm not sure they would. Effectively Mr Whelan has bent over backwards to accommodate issues about which he acted on behalf of ASLEF's members to counter. I can't say that I'd expect everyone on this forum to have done that.

Not everyone posting against DOO on here is an armchair poster - I'm certainly not, indeed some of my posts follow hot on the heels of instances where I've personally dealt with DOO gone wrong, or circumstances where it would have done.

I can also assure you that it is not just two anonymous drivers against this deal, political affiliations (supposed or proven) aside. In fact, from a location point of view, the politics are probably the opposite of what you'd expect.

 

[TheEdge]

Given the fact I've seen the BBC, ITV, Evening Standard and Guardian all carrying the story there is a risk that ASLEF membership could reject the deal I think its a lot more than "two anonymous momentum drivers say here as representative" as XDM says...

I must admit if I was a Southern driver I'd feel pretty embarrassed right about now, its seems like all the striking was pretty pointless as ASLEF up high appear to have bent over backwards.

 

[Legzr1]

I just love the fact that I'm "Sarah".

I haven't been mentioned but I still find his rambling hilarious.

 

[BestWestern]

I haven't been mentioned but I still find his rambling hilarious.

I'm thinking we could make an internet comic strip...

 

[LateThanNever]

This has already been discussed to death on the Southern DOO thread, but...

When working with a conductor, drivers release doors on 377s, 313s, 442s and (on the Marshlink route ONLY) the 2-coach 171s. Thus a Scotrail-type deal would not allow any variation from what previously happened as standard on most Southern units anyway.

Conductors cannot and never have been able to release doors (except obviously with emergency egress handles) on 377s. They don't have the training or equipment available to do it.

Conductors have to release the doors when working 455s (as they lock out the driver's panel by carrying out any operations) and on 171s between London Bridge and East Croydon/Uckfield (because of the door deselect system being wired such that only conductors can operate it on this route), as well as on a select few Marshlink trains. Conductors have been retained at several depots specifically to do this, as well as dispatch 313s, for which no DOO dispatch equipment is provided on the Southern network.

I ought to have had that as a "copy-and-paste" preset reply by now...


Now for the bit which is as-yet unique to this post and probably actually relevant here...

Up until more Southern routes started to go DOO over the last couple of years*, a Class 377 train would already have been cancelled on many of the longer-distance routes if the conductor wasn't present, but not because they were opening doors. It was simply the case that the bulk of the assessments for DOO(P) (P= Passenger) operation weren't carried out on most routes beyond the Southern "Metro" and BML area when 377s were originally introduced across the network over a decade ago. By far one of the most challenging issues was with station lighting and dispatch staffing. The introduction of 377 DOO(P) on further routes has seen huge numbers of test trains running, often with drivers released on special night-turn rosters and with at least 4 or 5 staff per train, with fluctuating results at each station. Lighting has had to be constantly tweaked, and on some lines, the planned rollout had to be postponed around the time of 1 January this year, with some of the problems only just resolved to some basic degree. Compared to this, issues such as clear cess evacuation routes and GSM-R reception have looked quite easy...

I have no doubt that this must have been a hideously costly exercise and GTR have probably only done it because they've been desperate not to risk further problems with the terms of their management contract, already under fire for performance and AIUI possibly fare evasion. But for those working in the long run (the long-term consultants, ahem, and those behind the scenes at the DfT, and so on), this has been a remarkably straightforward but lengthy game. You had 377s equipped with compliant bodyside cameras, even if they appear to be roughly half the quality of what you'd find on a cheap mobile phone from the early 2000s. You had a network getting busier and busier where the slightest cancellation would cause dissent and congestion. And you had drivers who had mostly been trained and contracted to work DOO(P) anyway. Lastly, all the extra kit might have been expensive but it didn't need new standards to be created, or new inventions to be made. There's only so far you can spec a lamppost, and I've been there, done that.

It was only a matter of time until ASLEF and the RMT had to face up to the challenge of trying to convince the DfT, franchise/contract holder and the travelling public that the effects of doing more DOO assessments - and getting the relevant people to sign it off - was a bad idea. This was always coming, it was just a matter of time. LM, Southeastern and SWT have a harder task, to give three London-centric examples, as their routes do not always match up with stock with bodyside cameras (in SWT's case, very, very rarely!) or appropriate revenue collection, or other technical issues. But Southern is a bit of a test-bed because a halt could only be called by the political collision between unions, government/contractors, and passenger sympathies. So far, it clearly hasn't been. The passengers are either just enough on the side of the government to try to carry on propping up the economy through thick and thin, or else have to carry on commuting because in this specific area of the South-East (central & eastern Surrey, and central Sussex, in particular) you have way too few motorways to give you a choice. The unions, having failed to build up a case against DOO or carry out resistance for so long, have floundered. And the government has hidden behind GTR, and would have the public backing even if they got rid of them, given the cries for renationalising the railways.

I suppose we have to be grateful that a company with better HR & PR skills didn't get the TSGN contract which GTR currently have. Perhaps the rollout would have been stealthier. Perhaps OBSs would have maintained guard competencies, so it couldn't be claimed they weren't trained or licensed. Perhaps the old BML DOO agreement could have had more stations added to it, with changes in job titles. Perhaps retained conductors would have been rebadged as OBSs and therefore the publicly-visible boundaries would have been blurred between which staff could and could not actually help in emergencies. Perhaps there would have been no protests until a cover-up came to light, too late.

But in all this lies the tragedy. Before this current dispute, a great deal was being done to get conductors to showcase their skills. Some of Southern's conductor training schemes have been very good, others a bit baffling, but the case was broadly in their favour. To paraphrase a post which I think has been lost in the mists of forum history, it's really quite rare to meet a bad Southern conductor. These people were trained well by people who brought good ideas from inside and outside the industry, and worked so hard and gave their all to make the railway safer, often in ways which couldn't be captured with financial statistics. And now their morale has crumbled and their unions haven't fought until it's been too late, bringing them out on strike after failing to properly promote them when they did their job well. The safety benefits of a good conductor are so great that I fear this corner of the country will see a major accident, fire, or mass-fatality self-evacuation before too long. You halve the risk of somebody not being there to take charge if you can guarantee someone with this competency on every train, especially some of the longest commuter trains in the country, often crammed with people travelling from the world's biggest single-runway-operated airport. It's madness, but not just from the DfT or GTR side. This could have won the debate about the effects of DOO dispatch compromising the availability of staff who also had other safety training, but the unions didn't really take that opportunity until an RMT dossier which seemed to come too late, buried under a pile of ranting press releases.


And now for the asterisk:

* What I would point out, contrary to what the ASLEF/GTR proposed agreement would have you believe, is that the extension of DOO(P) began long before the date of 21 August 2016. In fact, it started with Reigate and Tonbridge services routinely running DOO between Redhill/East Croydon and London Victoria at the preceding timetable change, instead of occasional DOO within the Metro area with its full-time station staffing; with the successive recasts of BML services which saw predominantly DOO operations on a Monday-Saturday basis; and before that, in the latter days of pre-GTR Southern, it was extended from South Croydon to Sanderstead, and on Guildford services from Sutton to Leatherhead. The rollout has gone on for much longer than anybody much is willing to publicise, including by the unions. This, in itself, is demoralising, and it's no wonder some GTR staff would tell you that there was a decrease in job satisfaction about the time this was happening. It's not been a good thing for these routes, and passengers have not appreciated not finding anybody to help them onboard.

How very informative.
In the end if guards make the travelling public feel better it must be better for rail.
That would be rather contrary to Grayling's line but he's the one who calls passengers customers and 'it's all about the customer'.
It's true the railway has a general subsidy, but so do the roads, and the general railway subsidy has balooned since privatisation and not the abolition of guards.
So legitimately two person trains can be straightforwardly justified!

 

[the sniper]

Have the courage of your convictions XDM, if the drivers vote against this deal, will you quit this forum? Or at least apologise to Sarah...?

 

[Chrisgr31]

It's true the railway has a general subsidy, but so do the roads, and the general railway subsidy has balooned since privatisation and not the abolition of guards.
So legitimately two person trains can be straightforwardly justified!

More importantly Southern is one of the few franchises that hasnt needed a subsidy and indeed has more than offset its costs returning a net figure to the DfT therefore 2 people can definitely be justified.

Whether this was mentioned in the negotiations that lead to the potential agreement that in turn has lead to this thread is something we don't know.

 

[Carntyne]

Can you show me where in their franchise spec Abellio were mandated to remove the guard?

Page 313 fairly drops the hint at 4.1.4.