Should We Leave the EU?

[Harbornite]

Oh and plumbers don't do an important job do they?

Lots of jobs are in danger because of cheap labour from abroad but clearly you're too thick to grasp that.

I shall ignore any further posts from you.

Plumbing is important, hence why people are doing it. :roll: Did you know that not all plumbers are from Eastern Europe, don't assume that there won't be any British plumbers left.

 

[Aldaniti]

Just to lighten the mood a bit ....our Welsh members have a real treat tonight. Sky News have an interview with George Osborne whilst indulging in a bit of steam haulage in Wales. Apparently he's had a seance with David Lloyd George who tells him that in the material world he'll most definitely be voting to remain:

http://news.sky.com/story/1711400/brexit-is-for-the-rich-chancellor-claims

And - wait for it - Brexit will only benefit the rich.....

Such wizardry from our Chancellor...... but how sad it is that ultimately he'll never come anywhere near the same political league as Lloyd George.

 

[ExRes]

What a surprise that the latest scaremongering has gone without comment

As we all know scaremongering is only carried out by those of the Leave persuasion, so I can only assume that Cameron has changed sides, 'you OAPs better vote to remain or you'll all lose your TV licences and bus passes, you'll also get no pension increases as we're going to have a £20bn to £40bn defecit, not sure which but that should be accurate enough to scare you old gits into submission'

Call me Dave might even miss out on his post PM Merkel bonuses if he doesn't get his way

Down here in the South West the brave Remain militia have taken to tearing down posters and throwing eggs at properties, jeepers, some Brits are getting very European


edited due to duplicated posting

 

[Harbornite]

What a surprise that the latest scaremongering has gone without comment

As we all know scaremongering is only carried out by those of the Leave persuasion, so I can only assume that Cameron has changed sides, 'you OAPs better vote to remain or you'll all lose your TV licences and bus passes, you'll also get no pension increases as we're going to have a £20bn to £40bn defecit, not sure which but that should be accurate enough to scare you old gits into submission'

Call me Dave might even miss out on his post PM Merkel bonuses if he doesn't get his way

Down here in the South West the brave Remain militia have taken to tearing down posters and throwing eggs at properties, jeepers, some Brits are getting very European


edited due to duplicated posting

I've heard scaremongering from both camps, but I still think that the remainians have a rather better case. Either way, the debate has degenerated into a farce and the sooner it is over, the better.

 

[Johnuk123]

Donald Tusk the president of the European council has today said The UK leaving the EU "Could destroy western political civilisation"

I imagine Cameron would be upset he'd never thought that one up as it's one of the best yet.

 

[Gutfright]

So what's Cameron's solution? Wheel out Gordon Brown, a former PM whom Cameron has spent the last nine years blaming for the current economic disaster.

Brown was in my town today giving a pro-remain speech at the local (former polytechnic) university, so being an open-minded sort of chap I decided to tag along.

He did ok, arguing that we need to remain in the EU to combat terrorism and people trafficing, and that we need an EU that protects workers from a race to the bottom with regards to worker's rights. Britain, he argued, could be at the forefront of protecting these rights.

There were barbs at the Tories and Donald Trump. There were also a few anecdotes about celebrities he had rubbed shoulders with such as Will Smith, Forest Whittaker and Amy Winehouse. He even made a joke about being caught out on a microphone (a reference to the 2010 Gillian Duffy incident).

But...he did get the name of the local football team wrong, so BREXIT!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I agree that he's taken the treasury forecast and simply divided the amount by the number of households which is ridiculous, which was my point originally.The reason I posted this information in the first place was just to show that although the £350m a week figure is a net one we do send a huge amount abroad every week the exact amount is open to interpretation.Osborne though is attempting to portray a forecast as a fact when it clearly isn't.

As much as I'm on the side of Leave for anyone to continually say we send £350m a week to the EU is not true as the rebate is taken off at source although that rebate may well go eventually.

So we both agree that the idea of every household losing £4300 would be ridiculous. The difference between us is that you think Osborne has made that claim, whereas I don't think he has. I just don't see that in the stuff you've quoted.

Somewhat odd for the two of us to be in even partial agreement. It's the kind of thing that makes me wonder whether I accidentally slipped Universes in my sleep last night and woke up in the wrong Universe this morning

 

[Abpj17]

But not of understanding apparently.
We send £350m a week. We then get some sent back in the form of a rebate.
Why don't we just send the net figure ?
Have a little think, or get someone to spoon feed you that information, then come back and tell us.
So as you see, it's not a lie that we send £350m a week.

Erm...that is exactly what happens?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._finances_2015_final_web_09122015.pdf#page=38

The effect of the rebate is to reduce the amount of the UK’s monthly GNI-based
payments to the EU Budget. It does not involve any transfer of money from the Commission or
other member states to the Exchequer.

Rebate is just short-hand. It's technically an abatement / reduction in payment.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So we both agree that the idea of every household losing £4300 would be ridiculous. The difference between us is that you think Osborne has made that claim, whereas I don't think he has. I just don't see that in the stuff you've quoted.

There are some forum members on this website who would regard a loss of £4300 as a mere drop in the financial ocean.....of course, I name no names

 

[Howardh]

Here's how the Brexit Immigration Con works;

Vote Brexit there will be no (official) unwanted EU migrants;

If they can't get through a British border, they will simply go to Ireland and cross there without any check or being counted. From there the disappear into the UK black economy taking *our* jobs for lower pay. They can't claim benefits - and won't have an NI number, so officially they won't be here. And they won't be rounded up as that would mean Brexit admitting that there's illegal immigrants around.

So the number will be zero, even if there are, in reality, thousands +.

So aren't Brexit voters part of a huge con trick?

 

[Antman]

Here's how the Brexit Immigration Con works;

Vote Brexit there will be no (official) unwanted EU migrants;

If they can't get through a British border, they will simply go to Ireland and cross there without any check or being counted. From there the disappear into the UK black economy taking *our* jobs for lower pay. They can't claim benefits - and won't have an NI number, so officially they won't be here. And they won't be rounded up as that would mean Brexit admitting that there's illegal immigrants around.

So the number will be zero, even if there are, in reality, thousands +.

So aren't Brexit voters part of a huge con trick?

Hardly a con trick:roll:

Reality is that there will always be people getting into the country illegally, hopefully when they're caught they'll be promptly deported. Or maybe if we're out of the EU they won't want to come at all?

 

[Howardh]

Hardly a con trick:roll:

Reality is that there will always be people getting into the country illegally, hopefully when they're caught they'll be promptly deported. Or maybe if we're out of the EU they won't want to come at all?

I keep getting told that being out of the EU will make this country more prosperous, so even more migrants will want a part of it....

 

[richa2002]

Here's how the Brexit Immigration Con works;

Vote Brexit there will be no (official) unwanted EU migrants;

If they can't get through a British border, they will simply go to Ireland and cross there without any check or being counted. From there the disappear into the UK black economy taking *our* jobs for lower pay. They can't claim benefits - and won't have an NI number, so officially they won't be here. And they won't be rounded up as that would mean Brexit admitting that there's illegal immigrants around.

So the number will be zero, even if there are, in reality, thousands +.

So aren't Brexit voters part of a huge con trick?

LOL, absurd. You're basically saying the same levels of immigration are inevitable whether it's legal or not. I don't think the majority of EU migrants are criminals who would choose the illegal route. Nonsense.

 

[Howardh]

LOL, absurd. You're basically saying the same levels of immigration are inevitable whether it's legal or not. I don't think the majority of EU migrants are criminals who would choose the illegal route. Nonsense.

Nope, I'm saying we will probably get more immigration legal or otherwise, not less. Almost every EU citizen is "legal" now, right?
Once some become "illegal" they can still come, unannounced, through the back door.
So we have the illegals already here + those "new" ones coming in from the EU, on top of the legit ones + their families.
So apart from legal immigrants; net illegal immigration will be higher, except it won't, officially, as they won't be counted, so we'll never know - hence the "con".

And, of course, there will be a length of time before we leave the EU so during that time there will probably be a flood trying to get in before deadline day, probably way above normal levels.

BTW the final sentence doesn't make sense, you are only an EU migrant "criminal" after Brexit if you enter the country without, well, permission ie. for work, tourism or study, as I see it. If they can't get in on those grounds, and have no other good reason (relatives here?) but STILL want to come, the back door's open.

I keep reading from Brexit that 70 million Turks are on their way. OK, a slight overestimate, but if (and it's a big IF, they have to get out of Cyprus first) they join the EU I'm sure many thousands (hundreds of?) will want to make their way in - in any way possible (Irish route, or even a dodgy dinghy). That's what Brexit keep telling me, and they must be right, surely?

 

[Antman]

I keep getting told that being out of the EU will make this country more prosperous, so even more migrants wi a part of it....

Your whole argument is absurd.

Anybody who wants to come to the UK should go through the proper channels just as they should to go anywhere else.

 

[Geezertronic]

If guilty, it would seem that these refugees were not properly vetted:

Three Syrian men have appeared in court accused of sexually assaulting a 14-year-old girl in a park in Newcastle...

 

[ExRes]

If guilty, it would seem that these refugees were not properly vetted:

As it's well known that many 'refugees' deliberately destroy their passports before landing in Europe, it's not an easy job to vet anyone

 

[miami]

Here's how the Brexit Immigration Con works;

Vote Brexit there will be no (official) unwanted EU migrants;

If they can't get through a British border, they will simply go to Ireland and cross there without any check or being counted. From there the disappear into the UK black economy taking *our* jobs for lower pay. They can't claim benefits - and won't have an NI number, so officially they won't be here. And they won't be rounded up as that would mean Brexit admitting that there's illegal immigrants around.

So the number will be zero, even if there are, in reality, thousands +.

So aren't Brexit voters part of a huge con trick?

Yes, it's a ploy to reduce the wages that the average person gets, to increase the profits of millionaires and billionaires like Johnson and Dyson.

Of course immigration won't be zero. It won't even be as low as half what it is now. Population will still be rising at about 3 million per decade, probably higher than that, and that's just the official figures.

If guilty, it would seem that these refugees were not properly vetted:

And what exactly has this got to do with the EU? Aside from a large number of brexit voters think that by voting Brexit they'll get rid of them?

 

[Howardh]

Your whole argument is absurd.

Anybody who wants to come to the UK should go through the proper channels just as they should to go anywhere else.

As absurd as closing the "proper channels" to the EU jobless and forcing them to go through a wide open border instead, and then disappear into the black economy undercutting the legitimate labour force and not paying their taxes?

 

[tony_mac]

does the vetting process now show what crimes people will commit in the future?

 

[Muttley]

As absurd as closing the "proper channels" to the EU jobless and forcing them to go through a wide open border instead, and then disappear into the black economy undercutting the legitimate labour force and not paying their taxes?

Wow, Northern Ireland is going to be crowded.
I suspect they'll cope, even after the Good Friday "decommissioning".

 

[Antman]

As absurd as closing the "proper channels" to the EU jobless and forcing them to go through a wide open border instead, and then disappear into the black economy undercutting the legitimate labour force and not paying their taxes?

What you mean there will be a black economy? Like there isn't one now?

 

[ExRes]

does the vetting process now show what crimes people will commit in the future?

Does any vetting process show what people will do in future?, do we cease vetting those that work with children for example because the process doesn't actually prove what their future intentions might be?

 

[Geezertronic]

And what exactly has this got to do with the EU? Aside from a large number of brexit voters think that by voting Brexit they'll get rid of them?

Maybe you have missed the many mentions of immigration from both the Remain and Leave camps so the very mention of immigration from both sides makes it a part of this vote

does the vetting process now show what crimes people will commit in the future?

Yes of course it does... obviously not. However what it should take into consideration is any previous crimes which I have not seen any proof of either way. The "men" in this report may not have previous but you don't become a sexual attacker overnight, and I hope if found guilty these "men" will be stripped of their refugee status, removed from the UK and sent back with the full backing of the law. It seems that we unfortunately have too many sexual predators and paedophiles in this country as it is so we don't need anymore...

 

[Howardh]

Wow, Northern Ireland is going to be crowded.
I suspect they'll cope, even after the Good Friday "decommissioning".

So there we have it...Brexit means dumping all our problems on Northern Ireland.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What you mean there will be a black economy? Like there isn't one now?

Yes, one now, one after. So no change, no reason to vote Brexit.

 

[EM2]

but if (and it's a big IF, they have to get out of Cyprus first) they join the EU I'm sure many thousands (hundreds of?) will want to make their way in - in any way possible (Irish route, or even a dodgy dinghy). That's what Brexit keep telling me, and they must be right, surely?

There's already about 500,000 Turks in the UK. It doesn't look like there's any major bar to their entry at the moment, so I can't see why open borders should suddenly lead to a massive influx.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm sorry to say that we are heading for a Brexit. Labour Party voters / supporters from working class backgrounds are convinced that immigrants are to blame for everything, not matter how much I talk about Tory austerity measures. All I hear is "immigrants first", the mythical £350 million, "I want my country back" and fourthly "everyone I know is voting 'Out'. No matter how prepared I am for these responses they will not be convinced otherwise. Depressing stuff but they've made their minds up.

 

[Howardh]

There's already about 500,000 Turks in the UK. It doesn't look like there's any major bar to their entry at the moment, so I can't see why open borders should suddenly lead to a massive influx.

Physically what difference would Brexit make? If those Turks have got in now - and they clearly aren't in the EU, they should have been subject to the same controls that Brexit wants in the future? Or have we just been letting everyone in who turns up (which I'll readily accept has been the case)?

There is a good point about uncontrolled immigration; but I keep harking on that immigration can't be controlled when there's a wide open border. Anyhow, that aside, I would have much more sympathy for Brexit's case if they could come up with something solid for UK citizens such as **UK passport holders will never be required to have a visa for tourist (ie 3 - 6 months) travel to any EU country**.

I would like that in black-and-white; before my current situation of caring for the old lady and man, I was a very keen traveller and loved the freedom of movement the EU gave me. Finish work on a Friday, be in Antwerp for a pint on the Saturday, booked on a whim.

I don't want the restrictions, beaurocracy and expense of having to apply for a sodding visa just to pop over to watch a hockey game in Holland one week and a bit of sun in Spain the next month. The worry is, as retaliation for Gibraltar, Spain will shut that border and force us to apply for visas. Frankly (pun intended!) I don't think it would get to that, but can it be guaranteed it wouldn't?

Now, can Brexit put me right, or is it one of their "suck it and see" policies?

 

[Aldaniti]

Many people are utterly fed up of being patronised, lied to, cheated, demonised and shamed by a ConLabLib group of largely smug and detached-from-reality politicians. A vote at a General Election is now next to worthless. The net result is just a very slightly different shade of politics every few years, managed over by well-educated individuals whose abilities seem to be confined to kicking cans down proverbial roads.

A week on Thursday, those people will at last get a voice, and a once in a lifetime opportunity to tick a box that will actually make a difference. A vote to leave will just be the start of a long process which I very much hope we shall take. We all know the alternative, it's the state of affairs that exists today. If you're quite content with that, and don't believe things can be better, then you should probably vote to remain.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's already about 500,000 Turks in the UK. It doesn't look like there's any major bar to their entry at the moment, so I can't see why open borders should suddenly lead to a massive influx.

Interesting. How many Turks are there living in Germany?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Many people are utterly fed up of being patronised, lied to, cheated, demonised and shamed by a ConLabLib group of largely smug and detached-from-reality politicians. A vote at a General Election is now next to worthless. The net result is just a very slightly different shade of politics every few years, managed over by well-educated individuals whose abilities seem to be confined to kicking cans down proverbial roads.

A week on Thursday, those people will at last get a voice, and a once in a lifetime opportunity to tick a box that will actually make a difference. A vote to leave will just be the start of a long process which I very much hope we shall take. We all know the alternative, it's the state of affairs that exists today. If you're quite content with that, and don't believe things can be better, then you should probably vote to remain.

Are you saying that some of the apathetic, lazy, "can't be bothered" brigade who are always noticeable by their absence in General Elections and council elections, will have had a Damascene moment and will betray their habit of a lifetime....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As it's well known that many 'refugees' deliberately destroy their passports before landing in Europe, it's not an easy job to vet anyone

What is the normal procedure when someone enters passport control without a passport in Britain?