Should We Leave the EU?

[EM2]

But this is a thread about the EU, which is why my focus is instead on the glaring democratic deficiencies of the European Union.

Yet they are no more deficient than the the processes of the UK.

 

[miami]

Each Commissioner is nominated by their member state. Each member state gets one commissioner regardless of population size.

The comissioners work for the EU, not for the member states.

Which means that the UK, with over 12.6% of the EU population, is represented by less than 3.6% of the EU commission and only 9.7% of the MEPs in the European parliament.

Where France and Spain have a higher population:mep ratio, and France and Germany have a higher population:council relationship

Perhaps you think that's fair? Perhaps you believe British people should be denied an equal voice because they're so much stupider than their sophisticated European counterparts?

It's degressive proportionality, something that our government agreed to, to ensure that smaller countries voices weren't completely ignored.

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/fair-share-meps/

But it’s true that smaller countries have proportionally more MEPs than we do per head of population (and, out of interest, a similar principle applies to votes in the EU Council). This system is known as degressive proportionality, and it has been unanimously agreed by all EU governments and national parliaments as a good way to allocate seats. But is it, nonetheless, a bad thing?

The first thing to note is that Britain is no stranger to this kind of variation. In the UK, just as in the EU, the smaller countries of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland each have proportionally more MPs in Westminster per voter than England. Deciding how to draw constituency boundaries, and how many people to include in each one, is an immensely complex issue, one that needs to take account of physical and cultural boundaries, geographical size, population density and existing political sensitivities as well as the simple number of people in each area. That’s why we have a special Boundaries Commission dedicated to weighing up these issues in England and Wales.

 

[Gutfright]

You've still failed to answer what having 4 people representing the UK in the Commission would actually do.

In theory it would do diddly squat - Commissioners have to swear an oath of neutrality.

In the real world - make sure you're sitting down to read this - sometimes politicians are dishonest. A disproportionately British EU Commission would be more likely to propose legislation that benefits Britain than a disproportionately non-British EU Commission (which is what we have now).

It's all utterly irrelevant of course. Nobody has proposed giving the UK 4 European Commissioners.

 

[Barn]

Like the House Of Lords?

The "House of Lords" whataboutery is very tiresome. True democrats want to improve democratic problems wherever they exist, not ignore some problems because others exist elsewhere.

We've evolved to a situation in our Parliament whereby we are virtually unicameral but with very large and grand scrutiny committee.

But it does of course need to democratise. That said, compare the scrutiny given to bills in the HoL to the scrutiny given to legislation in the European Parliament and you'll be in for a shock.

 

[miami]

The UK parliamentary system is completely unfair and archaic in places, and reforms are most definitely required.

But this is a thread about the EU, which is why my focus is instead on the glaring democratic deficiencies of the European Union.

You're proposing we take power away from the democratically elected EU parliament and instead give it to the serially incompetent UK parliament and undemocratic trade treaties. The replacement (the UK and the trade treaties we will inevitably agree to) are very much in focus.

 

[Gutfright]

Where France and Spain have a higher population:mep ratio, and France and Germany have a higher population:council relationship

The UK isn't the only country being screwed over by the EU. The European Union is also completely unfair to the voters of France and Germany as well as us.

Not the strongest argument for 'Remain' I could think of tbh.

 

[miami]

The UK isn't the only country being screwed over by the EU. The European Union is also completely unfair to the voters of France and Germany as well as us.

Not the strongest argument for 'Remain' I could think of tbh.

Yet these large states (which have all the power) seems to complain, probably because in reality if Germany, UK, France and Spain etc don't want a law passed, it won't get passed

 

[EM2]

The "House of Lords" whataboutery is very tiresome.

It's nothing to do with whatboutery. If you have an issue with unelected politicians passing laws, then you should have an issue with it no matter where it is.

 

[Barn]

It's nothing to do with whatboutery. If you have an issue with unelected politicians passing laws, then you should have an issue with it no matter where it is.

That's exactly my point. Saying "House of Lords, House of Lords, House of Lords" as an excuse for putting up with poor democracy in the EU is using one problem as an reason not to deal with another.

 

[Railops]

As anybody who registers to vote can say they're British whatever nationality they are and there are absolutely no checks I wonder how many illegal voters we're going to have.
Very convenient of course for Cameron.

 

[EM2]

That's exactly my point. Saying "House of Lords, House of Lords, House of Lords" as an excuse for putting up with poor democracy in the EU is using one problem as an reason not to deal with another.

:roll:
The quote from Gutfright was:

I happen to believe that our laws should be made by people we elect, rather than people who are appointed to their position

Our laws are not, and never have been, made by people that we elect. I was pointing this fact out. That is all.
The only country in the EU that seems to have an issue with the democracy in the EU, is the UK. Therefore, it suggests that for the vast majority, it doesn't need to be dealt with at all.

 

[Barn]

:roll:
The quote from Gutfright was:

Our laws are not, and never have been, made by people that we elect. I was pointing this fact out. That is all.
The only country in the EU that seems to have an issue with the democracy in the EU, is the UK. Therefore, it suggests that for the vast majority, it doesn't need to be dealt with at all.

Our laws are absolutely made by people we elect.

Laws are proposed by an elected government and passed by an elected Commons.

The House of Lords is neither necessary nor sufficient to pass a law. It needs to be fixed but to suggest we do not live in a democracy is specious.

 

[miami]

Our laws are absolutely made by people we elect.

All our national laws are made by people 36%* of us elect, and half of them are fighting the other other half.

* of those bothered to vote

As anybody who registers to vote can say they're British whatever nationality they are and there are absolutely no checks I wonder how many illegal voters we're going to have.
Very convenient of course for Cameron.

Well that's a new one. Perhaps it will make up for the fact some WW2 veterans aren't allowed a vote (perhaps they aren't British enough?)

 

[Railops]

All our national laws are made by people 36%* of us elect, and half of them are fighting the other other half.

* of those bothered to vote

Lame answer.

 

[EM2]

Our laws are absolutely made by people we elect.

No, not absolutely, because unelected Lords can table Private Member's Bills which can be become law.

 

[Barn]

No, not absolutely, because unelected Lords can table Private Member's Bills which can be become law.

Not without the support of the government and the Commons, and the government in the Commons can introduce legislation at any time to repeal it.

 

[miami]

Not without the support of the government and the Commons, and the government in the Commons can introduce legislation at any time to repeal it.

But the commission can't pass any laws without the support of the council and the parliament!

The Parliament can propose and pass a motion of no confidence in the commission, which means if they really want something done and the commission doesn't they still have the keys.

 

[EM2]

Not without the support of the government and the Commons, and the government in the Commons can introduce legislation at any time to repeal it.

But not made by the Commons.
If you say that that process is the elected House 'making' laws, then it's no different to a bill passed through the Commons being 'made' law by the unelected House.
So therefore, the statement that 'our laws are absolutely made by people we elect' is not correct.
And therefore, the fact that EU laws are passed only by the elected EU Parliament makes it more democratic than Westminster.

 

[NSEFAN]

So where does the commission get ideas for law from? The impression given here is that they sit around all day poofing legislation into existence without basis or reason.

 

[TheKnightWho]

As anybody who registers to vote can say they're British whatever nationality they are and there are absolutely no checks I wonder how many illegal voters we're going to have.
Very convenient of course for Cameron.

Your paranoia is, amazingly, reaching new heights yet again.

 

[Barn]

But not made by the Commons.
If you say that that process is the elected House 'making' laws, then it's no different to a bill passed through the Commons being 'made' law by the unelected House.
So therefore, the statement that 'our laws are absolutely made by people we elect' is not correct.
And therefore, the fact that EU laws are passed only by the elected EU Parliament makes it more democratic than Westminster.

Rubbish. No UK Act is made without the support of both the elected government (the policy makers) and a majority of the Commons (the democratic approvers).

Which House the bill starts in is just procedural. Private members bills are just curiosities that effectively give MPs and Lords a (very small) chance to convince the elected government that their idea is a good one. Most private members bills relate to social matters.

In Europe we do not vote for the policy makers. I can't really make this any clearer so perhaps we'll just have to disagree.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So where does the commission get ideas for law from? The impression given here is that they sit around all day poofing legislation into existence without basis or reason.

It's amazing what you can come up with when you employ thousands of officers and give them the task of coming up with new regulations. Why would any of them make themselves redundant by saying "Actually, chaps, my sector's looking pretty much OK right now. Why don't we just sit back and do nothing for five years or so and see how we get on?"

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The "House of Lords" whataboutery is very tiresome. True democrats want to improve democratic problems wherever they exist, not ignore some problems because others exist elsewhere.

And there - to my mind is the point. We want to improve democratic problems wherever they exist - so, in accordance with that principle, why not work on improving the EU? After all, no one (well, I guess, other than SNP supporters) is advocating responding to the UK's obvious democratic problems by somehow withdrawing from the UK!

 

[Railops]

A Polish language UK newspaper has a front page article encouraging Poles over here to register as British for the purpose of voting Remain.
The Electoral commission has been made aware.

 

[Barn]

And there - to my mind is the point. We want to improve democratic problems wherever they exist - so, in accordance with that principle, why not work on improving the EU? After all, no one (well, I guess, other than SNP supporters) is advocating responding to the UK's obvious democratic problems by somehow withdrawing from the UK!

I think the simple answer to that is that other countries do not have the appetite for treaty change at the moment - particularly as several countries have laws triggering referendums on such changes. They won't do so merely to appease British desires, especially after we had just voted to stay. Though our feelings are shared by other nations, they are not shared universally. We'll find it hard enough embedding Dave's renegotiation into law.

 

[TheKnightWho]

A Polish language UK newspaper has a front page article encouraging Poles over here to register as British for the purpose of voting Remain.
The Electoral commission has been made aware.

Where exactly does it tell people to lie?

 

[Railops]

Where exactly does it tell people to lie?

From the article -

You have the power, you have a voice
May 28, 2016,
Before us a referendum on Brexit. It is also your case. You have the power, you have a voice.
Are EU registered to vote yet ?!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think the simple answer to that is that other countries do not have the appetite for treaty change at the moment - particularly as several countries have laws triggering referendums on such changes. They won't do so merely to appease British desires, especially after we had just voted to stay. Though our feelings are shared by other nations, they are not shared universally. We'll find it hard enough embedding Dave's renegotiation into law.

How is that different in principle from the self-evident problem that that the British Government appears to have no appetite for any serious electoral reform, or any changes that would make the British system significantly more democratic? (And the same currently appears to be true for the Labour Party, the only other party with any significant chance of becoming the Government in the next few years)

 

[TheKnightWho]

From the article -

You have the power, you have a voice
May 28, 2016,
Before us a referendum on Brexit. It is also your case. You have the power, you have a voice.
Are EU registered to vote yet ?!

I am capable of reading. I don't believe it says anywhere that people should lie about their nationality though.

Unless you think no Polish speakers have British citizenship - which, given your previous attitudes, wouldn't surprise me.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

From the article -

You have the power, you have a voice
May 28, 2016,
Before us a referendum on Brexit. It is also your case. You have the power, you have a voice.
Are EU registered to vote yet ?!

That doesn't tell Poles to illegally register. It simply tells people to register. Presumably this paper is read by Polish language speakers, at least some of whom would also be British citizens and therefore entitled to register to vote? How can you be certain this headline is not aimed at those people?

 

[crehld]

That doesn't tell Poles to illegally register. It simply tells people to register. Presumably this paper is read by Polish language speakers, at least some of whom would also be British citizens and therefore entitled to register to vote? How can you be certain this headline is not aimed at those people?

Agreed. Claims that the paper headline encourages Poles who are not British citizens to register as British citizens are completely false.