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Should We Leave the EU?

Do you believe the UK should stay in or leave the EU?

  • Stay in the EU

    Votes: 229 61.4%
  • Leave the EU

    Votes: 120 32.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 24 6.4%

  • Total voters
    373
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EM2

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So no dissent allowed in the Fourth Reich then?
You can dissent as much as you like. But there aren't many that are.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Firstly, that isn't really true. Look at the regular street protests in Greece
Because of a financial crisis and related membership of the Euro, not because of membership of the EU.
the popularity of the Front National in France, Austria's close encounter with fascism, unrest in Sweden
None of which have actually led to those countries wishing to leave the EU.
referendums frequently going against Europe whenever people are asked and having to be redone, opinion polls showing support for the EU below 50% in almost every EU country. It's just that only the UK government has the nerve to make a nuisance of itself and finally, finally, grant a referendum.
These two statements appear to be mutually exclusive?
Secondly, even if it were the case, why does it matter to us what others think of the EU? What we think of it is what counts, unless you have already mentally surrendered our national will to that of the greater European population.
It matters because a lot of people are capable of seeing a bigger picture outside of their own little fiefdom, and that just maybe, they don't always know best and other people with experience and knowledge of other cultures actually can have good ideas that will help make life better for everyone.
 
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Barn

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So Britain should raise concerns about the EU only if it is sure that those concerns are simultaneously a priority for everybody else at that moment. That sort of thinking will lead to us weakening our Council voting rights yet further.

I'm not sure if Remainers really believe these things or whether you are just being argumentative. Rather than suggesting sceptics of the EU are stupid, or racist, or Little Englanders, or small-minded, why don't you base your argument about the successes that the EU has been responsible for?
 

NSEFAN

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Barn said:
Rather than suggesting sceptics of the EU are stupid, or racist, or Little Englanders, or small-minded, why don't you base your argument about the successes that the EU has been responsible for?
The economic interdependence that has grown between the EU countries effectively prevents another war between them. It would be economic suicide to go to war with a trading partner. Now, if we left the EU tomorrow, those trade links would still probably exist, although in the long term we cannot know if relations would turn sour (it still seems unlikely, given how fast communication has made the world much more accessible to the common man than it was 100 years ago).

I am however quite happy with the status quo with regard to our relation with the other EU states. A lot of the leave campaign is focussed on immigration but I really don't think that it's made out to be, rather our government's "free market'll fix it" attitude to housing, utilities, tranport, etc. The proposed "points-based" system wouldn't lower immigration very much, as we are already generally only importing skilled workers that we need. Instead of blaming freedom of movement, why are we not instead blaming the government's chronic mismanagement of education, resulting in a generation of people who are seemingly "useless" for the jobs that need doing?
 

Muttley

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...I am however quite happy with the status quo with regard to our relation with the other EU states...

Shame that's not on the voting slip, then.
Don't be fooled into thinking that a remain vote is a status quo vote, it isn't.
 

EM2

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... the successes that the EU has been responsible for?
The right to study, work, live and retire anywhere in the EU that you wish.
Being able to holiday anywhere in the EU without visas.
Cheaper flights.
Cheaper phone calls.
Cheaper wine.
Cleaner air.
Cleaner water.
Cleaner beaches.
Equal pay for men and women.
Rights for temporary and agency workers.
Better protection for workers with regard to hours.
Mandatory maternity and paternity leave.
Rights for pregnant workers.
Investment in infrastructure.
Emergency health care in other EU countries.
Emergency consulate assistance if there's no UK embassy or consulate.
Safer air travel, thanks to blacklisting dangerous airlines.
Better compensation for travel delays.
Better consumer protection.

Y'know...just for starters.
 
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YorkshireBear

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The right to study, work, live and retire anywhere in the EU that you wish.
Being able to holiday anywhere in the EU without visas.
Cheaper flights.
Cheaper phone calls.
Cheaper wine.
Cleaner air.
Cleaner water.
Cleaner beaches.
Equal pay for men and women.
Rights for temporary and agency workers.
Better protection for workers with regard to hours.
Mandatory maternity and paternity leave.
Rights for pregnant workers.
Investment in infrastructure.
Emergency health care in other EU countries.
Emergency consulate assistance if there's no UK embassy or consulate.
Safer air travel, thanks to blacklisting dangerous airlines.
Better compensation for travel delays.
Better consumer protection.

Y'know...just for starters.

But apart from that what have the Romans... Opps sorry, what have the Europeans ever done for us?

For me it boils down to, the UK has spent the last few centuries destroying large swathes of the world with its Empire, plundering it for resources. By being a part of the EU we have the ability to actively try and make the world a better place. To turn our backs is selfish by claiming we are better than the rest of you. Which we aren't.

I find it funny how so many people in this country are so upset at Europe imposing their will on us (not that they ever do as we write most of the regulations anyway) but have no problem with us galavanting round the world imposing our way of life on others?

Very glad to see the general consensus of this forum is to stay. Leaving is no path to Utopia, and from my experience in life, the grass is never greener on the other side.
 

Domh245

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Very glad to see the general consensus of this forum is to stay. Leaving is no path to Utopia, and from my experience in life, the grass is never greener on the other side.

If the general election thread on here was anything to go by, it should have been a resounding victory for Labour, but we saw how that turned out. It is going to be really close I think, I'll just be glad once this whole thing is over.
 

Barn

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The right to study, work, live and retire anywhere in the EU that you wish.
Correct, if you wish to work anywhere in the EU I'd vote for remain. I'd probably vote remain if If was from Luxembourg and didn't want to be trapped inside a small, landlocked country. That is not a concern for the majority of Brits, and obviously it works both ways

Being able to holiday anywhere in the EU without visas.
With the obvious exception of countries which were behind the Iron Curtain or dictatorships, this existed before we joined the EU. You can enter Schengen from many countries (Japan, South Africa, New Zealand, Columbia, Tonga, Mexico and many more). It is laughable to suggest that Britain would be excluded from that list.

Cheaper flights.
Modern Britain is a free-market, non-protectionist country and would be happy to continue to allow free competition between airlines.

Cheaper phone calls.
It's amazing how high up the list this is! Another one of those things that is vital for people living near the border of Belgium, Luxembourg etc. In Britain where roaming accounts for a tiny proportion of phone use, these regulations are a subsidy for business travellers and rich frequent holiday-makers coming from poorer domestic users.

Cheaper wine.
Really? Wine import duties are generally domestic, hence why I still went to Calais for my wedding.

Cleaner air.
Perhaps lower CO2 but higher levels of nitrogen oxides caused by EU regulations favouring diesel for cars (unlike other developed economies) following lobbying by German car manufacturers. These emissions are not 'clean' and, unlike CO2, actually cause increased deaths right now.

Cleaner water.
National requirements exceed directive requirements. Why wouldn't this continue?

Cleaner beaches.
Fair play.

Equal pay for men and women.
Our Equal Pay Act 1970 beat our accession to the EU by two years.

Rights for temporary and agency workers.
Which lead to a perverse incentive to remove workers before they hit their 12 week point.

Better protection for workers with regard to hours.
Mandatory maternity and paternity leave.
Rights for pregnant workers.

Domestic rules for holiday time and pay during maternity and paternity leave exceed EU requirements.

Investment in infrastructure.
The EU invests in nothing - it merely returns some of our own cash to us, with conditions and after running it through an inefficient bureacracy. In fact, due to the requirement for match funding and the consequential reduction in our rebate, it is of virtually no use at all.

Emergency health care in other EU countries.
Switzerland participates in the EHIC, so we could too if we wish. The cost to the NHS is far higher than the benefits to British tourists, though, and if you've ever needed to use it you'll appreciate that comprehensive travel insurance is still required as acceptance in practice is patchy at best.

Emergency consulate assistance if there's no UK embassy or consulate.
The UK has one of the largest networks of diplomatic missions, but these have been suffering as trade and commercial matters are handled for us by the EU. These arrangements are commonly set up between non-EU countries too - it is not particular to the European Union.

Safer air travel, thanks to blacklisting dangerous airlines.
We have been certifying airworthiness domestically since the Air Registration Board was established in 1938. It's amazing that people really believe that it is only thanks to the EU that these things now happen. Obviously in a Brexit future we would work with neighbours to ensure safety across our skies.

Better compensation for travel delays.
Ever tried to claim it?

Better consumer protection.
The vast majority of which brings the EU up to standards applied in Britain for decades.

Y'know...just for starters.
 
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EM2

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You make a lot of assumptions there, that non-EU UK would easily be able to do things that UK does do now (EHIC, consulates, visa-free travel) and they would all have to be negotiated, they will not be automatic rights as they are now.

Flights - we didn't allow free competition until EU told us to.
Wine - the EU said we had to reduce duty on wine to the equivalent of duty on beer. And without free movement, and the abolition of duty-free limits, you wouldn't have been able to stock up on plonk at the hypermarket.
Temporary workers - you have a point, but only for unscrupulous bosses.
Domestic rules for holiday time and pay during maternity and paternity leave exceed EU requirements - but they didn't before the EU introduced the requirements.
Phone calls - Britons made 31 million visits to the EU in 2014, many due to the aforementioned cheaper flights. Are they all 'business travellers and rich frequent holiday-makers'? What about those that live in Northern Ireland, near the Irish border?
Equal pay - enshrined in the original 1959 Treaty Of Rome, well before the Equal Pay Act, and in 1978, despite the passage of legislation to promote equal pay, women’s relative position in the UK was still worse than in Italy, France, Germany, or the Benelux countries in 1972.
Travel compensation - yes, claimed it very easily for delayed flights to Malta.

To return to a question that I asked earlier, if we vote to Leave, what will you as an individual be able to do that you can't do now?
 

EM2

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Brilliant.:oops:
Well, they didn't. The UK had their own rules for holiday time,maternity pay etc. The EU introduced a minimum level, the UK said that's fine, and in fact we'll do a bit more.
Do you think the UK would have brought their rules up to the current levels if they didn't have to?
 

Muttley

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Well, they didn't. The UK had their own rules for holiday time,maternity pay etc. The EU introduced a minimum level, the UK said that's fine, and in fact we'll do a bit more.
Do you think the UK would have brought their rules up to the current levels if they didn't have to?

Even better, you're still digging.:lol:
 

northwichcat

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Well, they didn't. The UK had their own rules for holiday time,maternity pay etc. The EU introduced a minimum level, the UK said that's fine, and in fact we'll do a bit more.

In the case of maximum hours worked per week the EU said employees must not work more than 48 hours per week, the UK decided to allow employees (but not employers) to opt out of that.

Gordon Brown was also able to revise the holiday time law without having to go through any 'EU red tape.' It was a minimum of 20 days (not including bank holidays) for full time employees and pro-rata for part time/temporary employees. However, he changed it to 28 days (including bank holidays) which didn't affect full time workers who work Mon-Fri and got BHs off but did benefit anyone else in employment where their employer offered the legal minimum.
 
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Barn

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Do you think the UK would have brought their rules up to the current levels if they didn't have to?

Probably, yes.

Remember you're not just comparing the pre-EU United Kingdom with the current one, you're also comparing the past with the present.

It's easy to judge a future Britain by the standards of Britain in the 1970s / 1980s. Remember we've voluntarily introduced equal marriage, shared parental leave, a living wage, pension auto-enrolment, extended rights to request flexible working and (soon) 30 hours of free childcare for working parents. All off our own back and (incidentally) all from the Conservatives. We're a decent, modern country and we don't need European overseers to maintain and improve this status.
 
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Johnuk123

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How on earth did we ever manage for a thousand years without a baby sitter ?
 

TheKnightWho

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Slavery, plundering of other countries raw materials and wealth and generally turning a blind eye to the morality of what we were doing.

Correction: trying to justify what we were doing by saying we were "civilising the natives" or whatever. A lot of people still think it's true, too.
 

Barn

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Slavery...

Heavens above.

It's incredible that you feel that we should still bear the cross for what our great, great, great, great, great, great grandfathers might have done in the 1700s* when considering our relationship with Europe.

Conversely I suspect that you would be appalled at any suggestion that Germany should consider what its present-day grandfathers did in their youth when thinking about matters of European integration. That would just be crass.

*(that is, before our great, great, great grandfathers in the Royal Navy led the world in suppressing the Atlantic slave trade and freeing slaves)
 
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Harbornite

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As we all know, it's not just the Brits who did bad things in the past. Remember that the Europeans didn't establish the slave trade in Africa, not that I am trying to justify what happened. It's just human nature.
 

Gutfright

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This is an argument for remain I haven't heard before. Britain is tainted by her imperial past and must be cleansed of her sin by the French, Spanish, Dutch, Portugese, Germans and Italians whose history, apparently, is completely free of colonialism!
 

Domh245

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Heavens above.

It's incredible that you feel that we should still bear the cross for what our great, great, great, great, great, great grandfathers might have done in the 1700s* when considering our relationship with Europe.

Conversely I suspect that you would be appalled at any suggestion that Germany should consider what its present-day grandfathers did in their youth when thinking about matters of European integration. That would just be crass.

*(that is, before our great, great, great grandfathers in the Royal Navy led the world in suppressing the Atlantic slave trade and freeing slaves)

This is an argument for remain I haven't heard before. Britain is tainted by her imperial past and must be cleansed of her sin by the French, Spanish, Dutch, Portugese, Germans and Italians whose history, apparently, is completely free of colonialism!

If you could point out where anyone has said that? Slavery only entered this thread when YorkshireBear mentioned it in regards to how we used to manage without babysitters. At no point have I read "We should remain to cleanse ourself of our former sinful ways" or "We should remain to punish ourselves for our distant ancestors ways"
 

YorkshireBear

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Heavens above.

It's incredible that you feel that we should still bear the cross for what our great, great, great, great, great, great grandfathers might have done in the 1700s* when considering our relationship with Europe.

Conversely I suspect that you would be appalled at any suggestion that Germany should consider what its present-day grandfathers did in their youth when thinking about matters of European integration. That would just be crass.

*(that is, before our great, great, great grandfathers in the Royal Navy led the world in suppressing the Atlantic slave trade and freeing slaves)


Don't think we should bear a cross. Seen as i think staying in the EU is better for the UK, staying in the EU isn't bearing a cross is it?

Simply stated how we managed for 1000s of years :) Which is true, you can't disagree that is how we became rich and powerful?

I simply feel strongly that being part of the EU helps us make a positive difference to the world and that we should remain there. This reason is on top of the fact that I think it makes good sense to stay in the EU, economically and particularly environmentally. We write most of the legislation which the EU enforces because we are good at it.

No I am not appalled at that suggestion. In fact quite the opposite. Germany is very mindful of its previous attitudes in Europe, it shapes the entire government's attitude to the EU. This is why it is very worried that us leaving will lead to a collapse of the EU. Generally (despite what many people harp on about) we have a huge influence in the EU, Germany is very fond of that as it allows us to show a united front. As two big powers we get the say. We both contribute the most incidentally too, hence the power. They do not want to be the only big power (France are big in the EU but not as much) as it will seem like them dictating. Hence the progressive collapse of the EU they are concerned about. A union which was born out of the chaos that reigned after two world wars. A union which has left Europe in the longest period of peace ever.

There in general seems a lot of Germany hate around this EU vote, I fail to understand why. Are we jealous? Because they seem to have not cocked their country up. Or are we just annoyed that they are the ones who stood up and took the EU by the scruff of the neck. Accepted it and have made huge strives to improve it. Pumped a lot of money into and therefore justifiably takes a lead. Now the UK nearly contributes as much as them, why have we not used this to influence for our advantage? Because the country seems to have an us against them attitude to Europe rather than treating them as neighbours and friends.
 

yorksrob

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Fascinating though this journey into history has been, I rather think that the recent actions of the EU in Greece, and to a lesser extent the rest of Southern Europe will be somewhat more relevant to my voting intentions than the machinations of the colonial era.
 

Barn

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There in general seems a lot of Germany hate around this EU vote, I fail to understand why. Are we jealous?

I've nothing against modern Germany, but I do find it galling that we are told that we must stay in the EU to promote European peace. Germany starts WW2, we send men to die and bankrupt ourselves to defeat its fascism and now we are told that we should be giving up our sovereignty just in case they might otherwise be tempted to try it again.
 
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