Should We Leave the EU?

[AndrewNewens]

Are you suggesting that most white racist skinheads will be voting remain then?

If not, then what exactly was the point of your post?
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Just for fun, try to answer the following question. Don't try to overthink it, in fact don't think about it at all. Just honestly give the first answer that instinctively comes into your head.

It's June 23rd, referendum day. You see a white skinhead dressed like the guy in the OBV poster. He's screaming and jabbing his finger at an Asian woman in a sari. He then goes in to the polling place and casts his vote.

Did he vote for Brexit?

Your instincts tell you that yes, he probably did. We all instinctively answer that question in the same way. The people who designed the OBV poster know that. They are using that instinctive feeling we all have that xenophobes probably dislike the EU to try to manipulate minority voters to back 'remain'.

A very valid point. As someone who has been campaigning in the streets of Darlington every Saturday for the last 6 weeks or so on behalf of the REMAIN campaign, I've spoken to hundreds of people about voting intentions. From my experience I'd say that in many cases, maybe even 50% of cases, where people say they are voting 'leave', there is an underlying element of racism lurking beneath and that this is their primary motive to vote leave. Sometimes it's obvious from the beginning of the conversation, but not always. Sad but true.

 

[EM2]

On the opposite side is a representation of the very worst aspects of white people: snarling, aggressive, yobbish and as obviously racist...

Why is he obviously racist? Because he is pointing at an Asian woman? Because he has short hair? Because he is wearing DMs?

 

[Gutfright]

Why is he obviously racist? Because he is pointing at an Asian woman? Because he has short hair? Because he is wearing DMs?

All of the above. His demeanour, haircut and his clothes are all clearly meant to suggest a racist neo-Nazi type. He's even got braces for goodness sake!

Now I know, not all skinheads are far right. There are left-wing skinhead subcultures too. But this is advertising. Facts aren't important in advertising, perception is. The OBV poster uses the widespread perception that skinheads are far right racists to try to manipulate minorities into voting leave.

The aim of the poster is to encourage black and Asian voters to think about which way the racist skinheads who have harrassed them in the past would vote (the assumption being they would vote leave because of their xenophobia), and therefore to persuade BAME people to vote the other way.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Perhaps we should stop talking about a silly poster and get on with talking about the topic: Should we leave the EU?

 

[Barn]

Just for fun, try to answer the following question. Don't try to overthink it, in fact don't think about it at all. Just honestly give the first answer that instinctively comes into your head.

It's June 23rd, referendum day. You see a white skinhead dressed like the guy in the OBV poster. He's screaming and jabbing his finger at an Asian woman in a sari. He then goes in to the polling place and casts his vote.

Did he vote for Brexit?

Your instincts tell you that yes, he probably did. We all instinctively answer that question in the same way. The people who designed the OBV poster know that. They are using that instinctive feeling we all have that xenophobes probably dislike the EU to try to manipulate minority voters to back 'remain'.

I honestly don't instinctively see him as Brexit, because he's nothing like any Brexit people I know (as, obviously, I don't associate with any thugs). I don't really see him as the voting type at all.

 

[Railops]

A very valid point. As someone who has been campaigning in the streets of Darlington every Saturday for the last 6 weeks or so on behalf of the REMAIN campaign, I've spoken to hundreds of people about voting intentions. From my experience I'd say that in many cases, maybe even 50% of cases, where people say they are voting 'leave', there is an underlying element of racism lurking beneath and that this is their primary motive to vote leave. Sometimes it's obvious from the beginning of the conversation, but not always. Sad but true.

50% of Leavers are racists are they ? No doubt they tell you they would like migration to be at a more manageable level and you being an activist see that as an automatic admission of full blown race hate.

Perhaps they have a very valid point which you cannot and will not understand as you're totally committed to one point of view and one view only. Have you ever thought that your harassment is very annoying or are you so obsessed by the "cause" and so thick skinned you actually believe trying to persuade people to your point of view is an admirable way to spend a Saturday.

 

[miami]

Perhaps we should stop talking about a silly poster and get on with talking about the topic: Should we leave the EU?

I don't see that conversation coming back.

I hear that Johnson and Cameron are on Countryfile tomorrow.

 

[EM2]

No doubt they tell you they would like migration to be at a more manageable level and you being an activist see that as an automatic admission of full blown race hate.

Perhaps they have a very valid point which you cannot and will not understand...

No-one that I have heard put across this point of view has managed to say why current levels of immigration are not 'manageable', or how reducing levels of immigration to whatever the manageable levels are would improve the country.

 

[Busaholic]

50% of Leavers are racists are they ? No doubt they tell you they would like migration to be at a more manageable level and you being an activist see that as an automatic admission of full blown race hate.

Perhaps they have a very valid point which you cannot and will not understand as you're totally committed to one point of view and one view only. Have you ever thought that your harassment is very annoying or are you so obsessed by the "cause" and so thick skinned you actually believe trying to persuade people to your point of view is an admirable way to spend a Saturday.

I've done something I've never done before and looked at your sum total of posts on this forum. Virtually none of them have been on a transport theme, even tangentially, so I wonder why you joined. Could it be that you have what you laughably accused me of, namely an 'agenda'? I notice the icon you use too, on a non-military forum.

 

[Harbornite]

This debate has degenerated lately, thank god there's less than a month to go until the ref.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Perhaps we should stop talking about a silly poster and get on with talking about the topic: Should we leave the EU?

An excellent idea. To try and pull this thread back on topic: There's a report that the EU is proposing to ensure that results from all publically funded scientific research in the EU will be freely available to all from 2020.

As someone who used to work in academic research, I think this is in principle an amazing idea, which would be hugely beneficial to science. When I worked in the area there was always the problem that you might be missing other relevant research because you could only access stuff in those journals that your University library could afford to pay for - and the usual budget cuts meant there was always pressure in that area.

This is also something that probably has to be done on an EU-wide basis - you'd almost never get individual European Governments to do it: They'd all be saying that it isn't in their own national interest to make their own research available unless other countries do the same, and you'd end up with no one doing it.

Admittedly, I can see a lot of practical difficulties to be worked out in how to implement this idea, but to my mind this does provide a good example of the kind of thing for which having a supranational organization like the EU can be really useful.

 

[burneside]

No-one that I have heard put across this point of view has managed to say why current levels of immigration are not 'manageable', or how reducing levels of immigration to whatever the manageable levels are would improve the country.

Perhaps you have not needed to use the NHS recently. Late last year i finally received an appointment to see a consultant at the Royal London Hospital; I had waited almost twelve months. Now tell me that high levels of immigration are not having a detrimental effect on public services.

 

[furnessvale]

An excellent idea. To try and pull this thread back on topic: There's a report that the EU is proposing to ensure that results from all publically funded scientific research in the EU will be freely available to all from 2020.

As someone who used to work in academic research, I think this is in principle an amazing idea, which would be hugely beneficial to science. When I worked in the area there was always the problem that you might be missing other relevant research because you could only access stuff in those journals that your University library could afford to pay for - and the usual budget cuts meant there was always pressure in that area.

This is also something that probably has to be done on an EU-wide basis - you'd almost never get individual European Governments to do it: They'd all be saying that it isn't in their own national interest to make their own research available unless other countries do the same, and you'd end up with no one doing it.

Admittedly, I can see a lot of practical difficulties to be worked out in how to implement this idea, but to my mind this does provide a good example of the kind of thing for which having a supranational organization like the EU can be really useful.

Will the USA, China etc be joining in or is it just the EU giving away hard earned research?

 

[miami]

Perhaps you have not needed to use the NHS recently. Late last year i finally received an appointment to see a consultant at the Royal London Hospital; I had waited almost twelve months. Now tell me that high levels of immigration are not having a detrimental effect on public services.

My father is in hospital at the moment having suffered a stroke 2 weeks ago, then a bacterial pneumonia infection and has had no issues with his care whatsoever.

My son had a minor thyroid issue that was spotted when he was young. He's seen a consultant every 3 months for the last 4 years, and the only issue we've had is getting parking at 11am at central Manchester hospital. That consultant of course is an immigrant, and that's the only truth I see of how immigration affects the nhs.

On the flip side a few months ago my brother had to have a brain scan in Portugal. He had a referral from the gp at 3pm and was in hospital having the scan at 8pm.

But yes, damn those bloody immigrants. The NHS should be there for native Brits that have had a good old fashioned drink fueled knife fight on a Friday night.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Perhaps you have not needed to use the NHS recently. Late last year i finally received an appointment to see a consultant at the Royal London Hospital; I had waited almost twelve months. Now tell me that high levels of immigration are not having a detrimental effect on public services.

I thought a large complaint was the NHS hiring too many foreign workers. Surely if there's a shortage now it would only get worse if they wouldn't be able to do that... Blame cuts to the NHS - not foreigners.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Will the USA, China etc be joining in or is it just the EU giving away hard earned research?

I'm fairly sure it is just the EU. However, 'giving away hard earned research' is a very misleading way of putting it. The research in question is at present normally published in scientific journals which are already publically available in the sense that anyone can buy them - that's not changing. The whole point of publishing research is to make it publically available, so that other scientists can comment on it, develop it, and improve on it. The current barrier is that in order to get the journals, you do have to pay for them. The subscription fees for the journals are paid by the Universities etc. to the companies (often, but not always, private commercial enterprises) that run the journals, and - as far as I recall - it's a while since I worked in that area - can be quite hefty. There is no benefit to researchers in having to pay those fees to those companies - although obviously they do in part represent the actual cost of printing etc.

What the EU proposals will do is remove that requirement for research organizations to pay those fees in order to access research that's been done in European Universities etc. (But, just like institutions elsewhere in the World, they'll still need to subscribe to journals to get to see research that's been done outside Europe). Presumably the EU will have to bear some cost in providing alternative arrangements to publish the research.

There is so far as I can see no disbenefit to European institutions there - indeed, there is arguably some relative benefit to Europe and to science in Europe, since it will mean that European research will become more widely disseminated than research done outside Europe. This move will be something of a boost to science globally, and a particular boost to science in Europe.

 

[RichmondCommu]

OBV chose the thug because they want their audience to fear and hate white people. They then want to manipulate this fear and hatred into a vote to remain in the EU.

I'm sorry but what you've chosen to post is truly desperate stuff. Do you honestly think that black and Asian voters are not capable of thinking for themselves? Further more do you really think that they are going to make their choice on the back of a billboard which doesn't mention any of the issues regarding our membership of the EU? The referendum has been full of conspiracy theories but your's is particularly outrageous. Not even Mr Farage would sink so low as to peddle that theory.

For what it's worth the BBC are suggesting that 80% of the white population are likely to vote compared to 20% of blacks and Asians. So in that case anything that encourages ethnic minorities to vote has to be a good thing, right? Unless of course you think that they are too thick to make up their own minds?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps they have a very valid point which you cannot and will not understand as you're totally committed to one point of view and one view only.

What and you're not? Bloody hell, talk about double standards!

 

[Gutfright]

I'm sorry but what you've chosen to post is truly desperate stuff. Do you honestly think that black and Asian voters are not capable of thinking for themselves?

Huh?

The OBV poster is a form of advertising. Like all adverts some people will be influenced by it's message and some won't.

Where did I state that the advert will be 100% effective in it's aim of persuading minorities to vote leave because all BAME voters are too stupid to think for themselves?

Or perhaps you're suggesting that a political group would never use fear to try and manipulate people?

 

[Aldaniti]

Regarding the NHS, the very fact that it relies on so much immigrant labour is testament to the failures of UK government over many years. Are we saying that the well paid job of a doctor or consultant is not one which attracts a British person, and for which we have to look abroad? I have no ideological opposition to controlled immigration, as long as you make sure that the indigenous population are trained and in full employment first, and that services and infrastructure can cope, otherwise - and ultimately - you just waste resources on welfare benefits and make life less less pleasant for everyone else.... housing, transport, hospitals etc. Our membership of the EU allows for uncontrolled immigration, and as MP David Davies said last Sunday, the numbers are now such that unless this is checked, it will - has - become a ticking timebomb.

As for the silly poster, well, all I can say is that I haven't seen a skinhead as depicted for many a year but stereotypes still have their uses!

 

[yorksrob]

In terms of the NHS, if there's a shortage of staff in one part of it or another, I'm pretty sure that we'll continue poaching trained professionals from abroad, regardless of whether we have controlled or uncontrolled immigration from one part of the world or another.

There was an interesting letter in The Times a couple of days ago (sorry - can't post a link as it's behind a paywall) from various former foreign secretaries from Denmark in favour of us staying in the EU. I have no problem with our European neighbours making their views known as they obviously have an interest in the outcome and I'll certainly take on board their views as part of my decision making process, however I was particularly interested as what they saw the benefits of Britain being in the EU actually were.

They mentioned us being in favour of free trade (I'm not sure our influence has been particularly benign in that respect anyway), however, given that Denmark is the only other country to have a treaty opt-out from the obligation to join the single currency, I was a bit disappointed that they didn't mention anything about how they saw us influencing the EU to become less centralised, in particular how we would help to uphold the rights of non-single currency members.

One of my big disappointments of David Cameron's renegotiation (remember that ?) is that other non-Euro states who don't have the opt-out are still bound by a treaty obligation to at some stage join the single currency, even though recent history has shown that any nation would be justified in not wishing to do so. This is one of the reasons why, in spite of benefits coming from solidarity, I still feel that I'm fundamentally opposed to the way in which the organisation treats the wishes of member states.

 

[EM2]

Perhaps you have not needed to use the NHS recently. Late last year i finally received an appointment to see a consultant at the Royal London Hospital; I had waited almost twelve months. Now tell me that high levels of immigration are not having a detrimental effect on public services.

My wife has numerous health issues, which means that she has at least one NHS appointment most weeks. Our experience does not tally with what I read in your post, I'm afraid, and nothing in her treatment leads me to believe that it is being harmed because of immigration.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Perhaps you have not needed to use the NHS recently. Late last year i finally received an appointment to see a consultant at the Royal London Hospital; I had waited almost twelve months. Now tell me that high levels of immigration are not having a detrimental effect on public services.

My experience with the NHS is also pretty dire. Even getting a routine appointment with a GP around my part of London can sometimes take up to 3 weeks - which of course means that unless I'm going for some chronic condition that's been bothering me for a while and looks set to continue, often it's not even worth trying to get an appointment I understand there are huge geographical variations so this is probably not everyone's experience.

BUT... Blaming that on immigration is a huge mental leap which doesn't seem to be justified - unless you have some other evidence that you haven't told us?

Really, all you can deduce from the poor service/long waiting lists is that the either Government are for some reason failing to provide sufficient resources to meet the demands or the resources are not being well allocated (I don't know which it is).

The NHS employs huge numbers of immigrants - presumably in part because it cannot get sufficient British staff, which suggests that in some cases immigration may actually be helping the NHS. I also understand that a big part of the problem of resources is that, compared to some years ago, people are living longer but often in poor health, which means there are massive demands on the NHS from the elderly - that clearly has nothing particularly to do with immigration. Certainly, most immigrants tend to be young working people who are amongst the least likely to need extensive medical treatment, and the most likely to be able to work in the NHS. Remember too that even if migrants aren't actually working in the NHS, if they are working and paying taxes, that ought to mean that the Government has proportionately more money to spend on the NHS anyway!

Blaming immigration on the problems in the NHS is the kind of blame game that many groups (Yes, looking at you, UKIP) like to play, and of course, it's theoretically possible that it might be a factor, but I've certainly never seen any hard evidence that it actually is the real reason for the problems.

 

[Barn]

Personally I think the problem is not so much sheer numbers but about lack of ability to plan for growth.

It's all very well blaming the government for not allocating resources properly. Doctors take years to train, doctors' surgeries take months or years to get planning permission and be built, teachers take years to train, new schools take years to be built. Housing schemes can take a decade to be built.

We have no idea what next year's immigration figures will be because it depends so much on the economies of other countries. We've been genuinely surprised as a country just how popular a destination we are. I think we'll be surprised again as our living wage is introduced, particularly if it does start to track actual costs of living. The rate is several times basic wages in parts of eastern Europe.

 

[furnessvale]

I thought a large complaint was the NHS hiring too many foreign workers. Surely if there's a shortage now it would only get worse if they wouldn't be able to do that... Blame cuts to the NHS - not foreigners.

Once again, our ability to stop uncontrolled immigration is changed into stopping all immigration.

Most immigrant workers in the NHS are not from the EU but from countries like the Philippines, who are not EU and do not have unrestricted access to the UK. That will continue and workers from EU countries that the UK wished to admit, would also enter.

 

[Johnuk123]

http://news.sky.com/story/1703817/nineteen-rescued-from-inflatable-boat-in-channel

Nineteen people rescued in the English Channel after their inflatable boat took on water are being questioned by immigration officials.

No doubt English tourists trying to avoid the French industrial action.

We only have 4 operational Border Force boats, 2 are in the Aegean sea which means 2 are left for the whole of the UK, the French have over 40.
We have scrapped our only Border Force aircraft so have no eyes in the sky at all.

 

[carriageline]

I'm in my 20s, so this will essentially be one of the biggest votes of my lifetime.

And frankly, I do not know which way to vote. The cynical side of me says, "if Obama wants us to stay in the EU, then we should bloody leave". I also wonder if the immigration "problem" is as bad as the exit side are spouting, I can hardly see the whole of Turkey flooding over here. I've seen plenty of videos of "immigrant riots in Belgium/Calais", "Muslims taking over Belgium/they want Sharia law" which look horrifying, but to me shout of trying to win votes through fear and that's probably the idea, and probably anything but immigrants rioting. Most probably, they are probably political riots? God knows. I do wonder the current state of affairs in Calais/Belgium?

Then there's TTIP, and the possible sell off of the NHS "if" we stay, (again probably a ploy)

NB: I'm not anti immigration, but I do believe it should be done 'properly' and be controlled

But then, I also worry about leaving the EU, and what we can be set to loose. Things like the working time directive COULD be attacked. Plus the seemingly unknown effect it may have on future trade.


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[TheKnightWho]

Once again, our ability to stop uncontrolled immigration is changed into stopping all immigration.

Most immigrant workers in the NHS are not from the EU but from countries like the Philippines, who are not EU and do not have unrestricted access to the UK. That will continue and workers from EU countries that the UK wished to admit, would also enter.

But many of the complaints are that they're employing too many from abroad.

 

[PhilipRhayader]

I'm in my 20s, so this will essentially be one of the biggest votes of my lifetime.

<snip>

Then there's TTIP, and the possible sell off of the NHS "if" we stay, (again probably a ploy)


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And you think Johnson, IDS, Gove and Farage are going to protect the NHS?

 

[yorksrob]

And you think Johnson, IDS, Gove and Farage are going to protect the NHS?

Johnson, IDS, Gove and Farrage can be voted out. TTIP will be trickier to remove.

 

[Barn]

But many of the complaints are that they're employing too many from abroad.

Yes, the NHS depends on foreign staff. Yes, we're grateful to those staff for treating us when we're ill. Yes, we should be training our own citizens so they become doctors and nurses. These things can all be true.