Should We Leave the EU?

[Domh245]

Osborne saying that house prices will fall if we leave the EU.... come on! That might not be a good thing to the ultra-rich property owners like himself but for around 90% of the population it is! Congratulations, you have now convinced a whole bunch of people to vote for the opposite to what you are campaigning for, well done.

Eh, it might turn younger people towards Brexit (although it'd be a something akin to decapitating yourself to spite one's nose) but at the same time it may have swayed some of the older generations (a lot of whom are home owners) who were leaning towards Brexit to vote remain to preserve their house prices.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Eh, it might turn younger people towards Brexit (although it'd be a something akin to decapitating yourself to spite one's nose) but at the same time it may have swayed some of the older generations (a lot of whom are home owners) who were leaning towards Brexit to vote remain to preserve their house prices.

Perhaps you need to familiarise yourself as to the very large exact number of property owning people in Britain who would not take too kindly to a drop in their house prices. It was to those people to whom his remarks were intended.

 

[TheKnightWho]

That's because it is a double standard, and it's very hard to point out discrimination against white people when the same people point out the discrimination against 'ethnic minorities' so readily.

And that would be because white people are not and have never been systematically discriminated against in this country.

 

[furnessvale]

I am aware that on this particular website, in the three and a half months that this thread has been running since 2nd February, there have been many worries expressed as to how worker's rights could be affected if the referendum went in favour of the leave campaign with a right-wing British government in power, which makes me wonder to the state of the poll attached to the thread that currently shows the following:-

Stay in EU........60.08%
Leave the EU....32.77%
Don't know........7.14%

I have also pointed out the possibility that in, say, 10 years time a, by then, right wing dominated EU could play havoc with an elected left wing UK government.

 

[miami]

I have also pointed out the possibility that in, say, 10 years time a, by then, right wing dominated EU could play havoc with an elected left wing UK government.

Such a left wing government (which is very unlikely, we've not had one in my lifetime that's for sure) would simply be able to leave the EU if that came to pass.
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Perhaps you need to familiarise yourself as to the very large exact number of property owning people in Britain who would not take too kindly to a drop in their house prices. It was to those people to whom his remarks were intended.

Domh245 was saying that old people (who tend to own houses) are more likely to be swayed to "remain", where young people (who can't afford to buy a house) will sway to leave, if the claim "house prices will fall" was to be believed, which seems to be what you're agreeing with?

House price falls don't really affect old people (most likely to vote for brexit), as it matters not if your house is worth £800k and £80k. They can really badly affect those who have recently bought a house (negative equity, coupled with need to re-mortgage at the end of a fixed rate term), and can of course help those who haven't bought a house yet, assuming all things are equal.

Everyone agrees the pound will be weaker on a brexit (good for exports, bad for those of us who want a foreign holiday)

Britain's currency is falling against the dollar amid uncertainty over a possible Brexit

This will presumably lead to increased interest rates, which is bad news for everyone except rich pensioners. It means more saving and less spending (bad news for those in the high street and it's suppliers) and it means increased mortgage rates (bad news for those who are still working to pay their mortgage. Those increased rates will also feed into lower house prices (bad news for those looking to remortgage, but good news for those who paid their mortgage off)

 

[Muttley]

Such a left wing government (which is very unlikely, we've not had one in my lifetime that's for sure) would simply be able to leave the EU if that came to pass.

Rubbish.
Greece couldn't leave.
Ireland couldn't leave.
We get a vote every 41 years.
If we stop in now we're in forever. Into full political union, into full fiscal union.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This will presumably lead to increased interest rates, which is bad news for everyone except rich pensioners.

Well, thank you for remembering me at the end of that sentence.....
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If we stop in now we're in forever. Into full political union, into full fiscal union.

Did you have your fingers crossed behind your back just before you decided to put those thoughts of doom into print....

 

[furnessvale]

Such a left wing government (which is very unlikely, we've not had one in my lifetime that's for sure) would simply be able to leave the EU if that came to pass.

In when it suits, out when it suits. Sounds more like the Hokey Cokey to me.

Besides, 5 years later things have reversed and we have a right wing government in the UK and a left wing EU.

Far better to pick the government you want within the UK and let that government run our affairs.

 

[deltic]

Rubbish.
Greece couldn't leave.
Ireland couldn't leave.
We get a vote every 41 years.
If we stop in now we're in forever. Into full political union, into full fiscal union.

If only

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Domh245 was saying that old people (who tend to own houses) are more likely to be swayed to "remain", where young people (who can't afford to buy a house) will sway to leave.

It may surprise you to know that there are many young people in their 20's, 30's's and even 40's (being the new 30's) who own their houses. It is less than 10 years ago when mortgages in Britain were in plentiful supply, prior to the 2008 banking crisis, which in itself was triggered by the American mortgage package fiasco that American corporate finance "creative banking minds" designed,

 

[miami]

It may surprise you to know that there are many young people in their 20's, 30's's and even 40's (being the new 30's) who own their houses. It is less than 10 years ago when mortgages in Britain were in plentiful supply, prior to the 2008 banking crisis, which in itself was triggered by the American mortgage package fiasco that American corporate finance "creative banking minds" designed,

I'm sure you can find a number as ill-defined as "plenty" doing anything.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...irst-time-buyer-is-now-35-research-finds.html

The age at which the average prospective buyer expects to buy their first home is 35 years old, according to a survey by Post Office Mortgages.
..
The Post Office said that in the early 1960s the average age was 24.

http://visual.ons.gov.uk/uk-perspectives-housing-and-home-ownership-in-the-uk/

The reduction in the numbers of first time buyers has subsequently had an impact on the age of homeowners. In 1991, 67% of the 25 to 34 age group were homeowners. By 2011/12, this had declined to 43%.

Those numbers won't have risen.

And the reason?

http://www.theguardian.com/money/20...-price-rises-times-local-salary-england-wales

The average home in England and Wales cost a record 8.8 times the typical local salary in 2014, according to analysis by the Office for National Statistics that reveals prices in some areas have reached 20 times local incomes.
..
The 15 least affordable areas for private renting were all London boroughs, with tenants in those such as Newham and Brent expected to hand over 65% of their pay for the average private flat. Newham also had the highest average rent for socially provided housing at £128.90 a week. The most affordable London borough was Bexley, but even there the average private rent took 40% of monthly salary, according to the ONS.

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Seems that the SNP are on the brexit side then, where they hope to use such a vote to call for another referendum.

 

[Gutfright]

And that would be because white people are not and have never been systematically discriminated against in this country.

What a bizarre and stupid thing to say.

Do you seriously believe that Rotherham is not and has never been part of England? Or do you believe it's not discrimination to fail to protect vulnerable white children from sexual exploitation? Perhaps you think the whole thing never happened, and it's all an illuminati Zionist false-flag operation?

 

[TheKnightWho]

What a bizarre and stupid thing to say.

Do you seriously believe that Rotherham is not and has never been part of England? Or do you believe it's not discrimination to fail to protect vulnerable white children from sexual exploitation? Perhaps you think the whole thing never happened, and it's all an illuminati Zionist false-flag operation?

You might have missed the word systematic in my sentence there. I don't deny that what went on in Rotherham was terrible, but are you seriously going to argue that white people have been persecuted on a level anything like non-white people in this country?

But of course, if I disagree with you I must be "stupid", right?

 

[radamfi]

It may surprise you to know that there are many young people in their 20's, 30's's and even 40's (being the new 30's) who own their houses. It is less than 10 years ago when mortgages in Britain were in plentiful supply, prior to the 2008 banking crisis, which in itself was triggered by the American mortgage package fiasco that American corporate finance "creative banking minds" designed,

But many (most?) people who own their own flats/houses may want to "upgrade" at some point in the future, and those people don't benefit from rising prices. Higher prices is only good for those who have bought the most expensive house they will ever buy and intend to downsize, or those selling to rent.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm sure you can find a number as ill-defined as "plenty" doing anything.

I did not use the word "plenty" in my posting.

What I did say was that mortgages were in plentiful supply in Britain prior to the 2008 banking crisis.
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Higher prices is only good for those who have bought the most expensive house they will ever buy and intend to downsize .....

Why is it, I wonder, that my particular personal circumstances seem to be used as quoted examples on this thread recently?....:roll:

However, in my case, there will be no reason to downsize ever. My good lady wife and I are most content with the property that we purchased in 2004 that is situated in a most delightful area of "The Golden Triangle" of Cheshire East.

 

[Gutfright]

You might have missed the word systematic in my sentence there.

Nope. Rotherham represented a systematic failure to provide the victims the protection they needed, and they were denied this protection for racially-motivated reasons. Read the results of the independent inquiry.

I don't deny that what went on in Rotherham was terrible, but are you seriously going to argue that white people have been persecuted on a level anything like non-white people in this country?

Nice attempt at moving the goalposts there. The real question is are you going to double down and still try to insist that there has never ever ever been even a single example of systematic anti-White discrimination in this country, or are you going to admit you were wrong?

But of course, if I disagree with you I must be "stupid", right?

If you say something stupid, then the thing you said must be stupid.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Nope. Rotherham represented a systematic failure to provide the victims the protection they needed, and they were denied this protection for racially-motivated reasons. Read the results of the independent inquiry.



Nice attempt at moving the goalposts there. The real question is are you going to double down and still try to insist that there has never ever ever been even a single example of systematic anti-White discrimination in this country, or are you going to admit you were wrong?



If you say something stupid, then the thing you said must be stupid.

I have moved no goalposts. You have completely misinterpreted me, called me stupid, and now are trying to tell me what I have said.

You clearly do not seem to understand what systematic discrimination is either: it does not mean something on the scale of Rotherham; it means something on he scale of the U.K.: a fact you have failed to accept because it doesn't suit you. The very point I was making was that the situations of white people and non-white people are different because of historical and ongoing discrimination: derailing the conversation by talking about Rotherham and then trying to argue semantics and pedantry shows you're clearly trying to poke holes without really engaging with the point I was making.

Honestly, one might almost think you have an agenda here. It really does take the biscuit when you accuse me of moving the goalposts, when really I'm working on the argument I was originally making, and not the one that you wish I was making.

 

[radamfi]

Why is it, I wonder, that my particular personal circumstances seem to be used as quoted examples on this thread recently?....:roll:

However, in my case, there will be no reason to downsize ever. My good lady wife and I are most content with the property that we purchased in 2004 that is situated in a most delightful area of "The Golden Triangle" of Cheshire East.

I was simply pointing out why many people don't necessarily want prices to increase. If you don't ever sell then you don't benefit from increased prices either. You could of course stay in the house and sell some or all of the equity, and in that case you would benefit from a price increase. Obviously whoever inherits your estate would also benefit from an increase.

Much of Europe has far better value housing that the UK, so Brexit could make it harder for us to move to such housing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was simply pointing out why many people don't necessarily want prices to increase. If you don't ever sell then you don't benefit from increased prices either. You could of course stay in the house and sell some or all of the equity, and in that case you would benefit from a price increase. Obviously whoever inherits your estate would also benefit from an increase.

I just regard the house as one of my many assets and always look to ensuring that all of them hold in value, wherever possible. The house has increased greatly in value since its purchase in 2004 and well above any inflation figure, as desirable properties always do so in our rural area as Savills and Jackson-Stops and Staff will duly attest at both their Wilmslow offices.

Unlike some of those misleading television advertisements for equity release financial products that always paint the rosiest of pictures without saying anything about the disadvantages, I cannot ever see me being in need of any such equity release funding capital.

 

[Gutfright]

I have moved no goalposts. You have completely misinterpreted me, called me stupid, and now are trying to tell me what I have said.

You clearly do not seem to understand what systematic discrimination is either: it does not mean something on the scale of Rotherham; it means something on he scale of the U.K.: a fact you have failed to accept because it doesn't suit you. The very point I was making was that the situations of white people and non-white people are different because of historical and ongoing discrimination: derailing the conversation by talking about Rotherham and then trying to argue semantics and pedantry shows you're clearly trying to poke holes without really engaging with the point I was making.

Honestly, one might almost think you have an agenda here. It really does take the biscuit when you accuse me of moving the goalposts, when really I'm working on the argument I was originally making, and not the one that you wish I was making.

Just to remind you what you said, as you already seem to have forgotten: white people are not and have never been systematically discriminated against in this country.

Rotherham was systematic, discriminatory and happened in this country. When I pointed that out, your response was to move the goalposts by saying are you seriously going to argue that white people have been persecuted on a level anything like non-white people in this country?

"There has been an example of systematic anti-white discrimination in this country" and "white people have been persecuted to the same degree as non-whites" are two different statements. Bringing up the latter when we had been discussing the former is a classic example of moving the goalposts.

Another example of moving the goalposts is your bizarre attempt to insist that for discrimination to be systematic it must be nationwide. That's not what the word systematic means. For example, the Metropolitan Police can be systematically racist towards black people. Using your unique definition of the word, the statement "The Met police systematically discriminate against black people" could not possibly be true.

Oh, and once again, I have never called you stupid. I called the stupid statement that you made stupid. Because it was stupid.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Just to remind you what you said, as you already seem to have forgotten: white people are not and have never been systematically discriminated against in this country.

Rotherham was systematic, discriminatory and happened in this country. When I pointed that out, your response was to move the goalposts by saying are you seriously going to argue that white people have been persecuted on a level anything like non-white people in this country?

"There has been an example of systematic anti-white discrimination in this country" and "white people have been persecuted to the same degree as non-whites" are two different statements. Bringing up the latter when we had been discussing the former is a classic example of moving the goalposts.

Another example of moving the goalposts is your bizarre attempt to insist that for discrimination to be systematic it must be nationwide. That's not what the word systematic means. For example, the Metropolitan Police can be systematically racist towards black people. Using your unique definition of the word, the statement "The Met police systematically discriminate against black people" could not possibly be true.

Oh, and once again, I have never called you stupid. I called the stupid statement that you made stupid. Because it was stupid.

And you have successfully managed to shift the argument entirely away from all of the relevant factors in trying to weasel out a pedantic exception to my statement. In doing so, you have entirely missed the point.

White people have not been systematically discriminated against in this country, and whilst instances of institutional neglect and abuse such as Rotherham exist they do not demonstrate the nationwide oppression that is clearly what is relevant here when we are referring to the original poster.

Yet again, if you want to muck about with word games whilst repeatedly failing to actually engage with my point head on because you'd prefer to exact irrelevant "counterexamples" to my general point then be my guest, but I will continue to point out that you have entirely missed the point. So no, the statement wasn't stupid: your interpretation of it was a stupid one, and I suspect so that you could get the smug satisfaction of "proving" me wrong.

I don't know or care whether your motivations are to desperately deny that there are systematic disadvantages faced by non-white people that mean that a group called "Operation White Vote" would be entirely inappropriate, or whether you just wanted the satisfaction of being a pedant; either way, what you're coming out with is your own smug attack against an argument that was not made whilst entirely failing to understand the context in which it actually was made.

Based on that, I really don't think I'm the one making stupid comments, to be honest.

 

[Gutfright]

And you have successfully managed to shift the argument entirely away from all of the relevant factors in trying to weasel out a pedantic exception to my statement. In doing so, you have entirely missed the point.

Your argument that black people have historically had it worse than whites in this country is fundamentally reasonable.

To say that white people have never faced systematic discrimination is patently untrue. There is precedent for it happening in this country.

I was disappointed that you decided to use factually-incorrect hyperbole to support your argument. Apart from anything else, it's completely unnecessary.

 

[Aldaniti]

I just regard the house as one of my many assets and always look to ensuring that all of them hold in value, wherever possible. The house has increased greatly in value since its purchase in 2004 and well above any inflation figure, as desirable properties always do so in our rural area as Savills and Jackson-Stops and Staff will duly attest at both their Wilmslow offices.

Unlike some of those misleading television advertisements for equity release financial products that always paint the rosiest of pictures without saying anything about the disadvantages, I cannot ever see me being in need of any such equity release funding capital.

You do make me laugh, Paul. Your efforts to impersonate Hyacynth Bucket are exemplary!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You do make me laugh, Paul. Your efforts to impersonate Hyacynth Bucket are exemplary!

I am always happy to converse with the spirit of the winner of the 1981 Grand National on this website....

Have you ever thought that the scriptwriters for "Keeping Up Appearances", under the guiding hand of Harold Snoad in the production, may have based the part of Hyacinth Bucket upon my mother, still going strong at the age of 95 and on the committee of three organisations, as her sister and many of her close acquaintances saw the immediate closeness to both of them when this programme was first broadcast.

I am but a mere gossoon of 71 in comparison, whose current lifestyle speaks for itself after a lifetime in business and one who sees no sense in attempting to pretend that I have not reaped the benefits that careful financial management and a good set of brokers can bring forth. I could have decided that the stroke that I suffered in July 2012 was a life-changing experience and resigned myself to a life of slow decline but being the person I am, I chose to go forth and prosper in my latter years and I am sure that many on this website rue the day that I joined it over five years ago, large as life and infuriating in my postings.

 

[Aldaniti]

I am always happy to converse with the spirit of the winner of the 1981 Grand National on this website....

Have you ever thought that the scriptwriters for "Keeping Up Appearances", under the guiding hand of Harold Snoad in the production, may have based the part of Hyacinth Bucket upon my mother, still going strong at the age of 95 and on the committee of three organisations, as her sister and many of her close acquaintances saw the immediate closeness to both of them when this programme was first broadcast.

I am but a mere gossoon of 71 in comparison, whose current lifestyle speaks for itself after a lifetime in business and one who sees no sense in attempting to pretend that I have not reaped the benefits that careful financial management and a good set of brokers can bring forth. I could have decided that the stroke that I suffered in July 2012 was a life-changing experience and resigned myself to a life of slow decline but being the person I am, I chose to go forth and prosper in my latter years and I am sure that many on this website rue the day that I joined it over five years ago, large as life and infuriating in my postings.

Not at all.... you actually do often make me laugh Paul, and the world would be a far duller place without characters such as your good self!

 

[Railops]

Operation Black vote (them of the racist poster which seems to have spectacularly backfired ) have been asked to explain why they call themselves a charity and are in fact a private company.
The Charity Commission has launched an investigation after it was revealed that they were handed £28,000 last year from Cabinet Secretary Jeremy (Sir cover-up) Heywood and although they have not submitted accounts for 4 years they were handed £380,000 from the Govt. in 2010.
An organisation cannot be charitable if it's political which they very much are.
They are also heavily funded by the Joseph Rowntree trust which handed them £107,000 over the last 2 years alone.This is the discredited charity that supports Cage who are widely believed to be a front for Jihadis so OBV has some nice friends.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Operation Black vote (them of the racist poster which seems to have spectacularly backfired ) have been asked to explain why they call themselves a charity and are in fact a private company.

Just out of curiosity why do you feel that the poster is racist? And why do you think it's backfired?

 

[TheKnightWho]

You do make me laugh, Paul. Your efforts to impersonate Hyacynth Bucket are exemplary!

We agree on something, at least!
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Just out of curiosity why do you feel that the poster is racist? And why do you think it's backfired?

The fact is with Railops is that he seems to believe that whatever his opinion and wishful thinking is is automatically fact...
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Operation Black vote (them of the racist poster which seems to have spectacularly backfired ) have been asked to explain why they call themselves a charity and are in fact a private company.
The Charity Commission has launched an investigation after it was revealed that they were handed £28,000 last year from Cabinet Secretary Jeremy (Sir cover-up) Heywood and although they have not submitted accounts for 4 years they were handed £380,000 from the Govt. in 2010.
An organisation cannot be charitable if it's political which they very much are.
They are also heavily funded by the Joseph Rowntree trust which handed them £107,000 over the last 2 years alone.This is the discredited charity that supports Cage who are widely believed to be a front for Jihadis so OBV has some nice friends.

Getting a certain demographic to vote does not mean they are picking a side. If you have automatically associated your 'side' with a racist skinhead then that says more about you than it does about OBV.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think I asked this earlier but does anyone know if there will be an exit poll? Or will we, like with the Scottish Indy Referendum, have to wait for the results to start to come in? I'd like to know if I should plan on staying up all night or not

 

[Railops]

Just out of curiosity why do you feel that the poster is racist? And why do you think it's backfired?

The message that it's trying to portray is that all whites are threatening thugs trying to intimidate poor little Indian women.

I think this quote from the mp Priti Patel yesterday is very accurate.

This poster plumbs new depths in scaremongering. Its imagery manages to be both offensive and patronising.
The Asian woman is a caricature from an outdated narrative where ethnic minorities are held to be passive victims.
That certainly does not match the experience of most Asians and diaspora communities in modern Britain.
Just as grotesque is the portrayal of the white voter as a knuckle-dragging racist. The subliminal message is that support for Brexit amounts to a form of bigotry

Why do you think black people being patronised is the way to go ?