Should We Leave the EU?

[TheKnightWho]

The message that it's trying to portray is that all whites are threatening thugs trying to intimidate poor little Indian women.

I think this quote from the mp Priti Patel yesterday is very accurate.



Why do you think black people being patronised is the way to go ?

No it isn't. Where does it make any comment about all whites?

 

[burneside]

I wonder if a poster campaign along the lines of "Operation White Vote" would be considered acceptable?

 

[DarloRich]

I wonder if a poster campaign along the lines of "Operation White Vote" would be considered acceptable?

Yes. Especially one that targeted young people or those that feel disenfranchised of which many seem to be white, male, working class people.

 

[Senex]

Yes. Especially one that targeted young people or those that feel disenfranchised of which many seem to be white, male, working class people.

That would be an excellent -- and very necessary -- campaign to see run, but it would not be one to be targeted at all whites but rather very specifically at the groups known to be reluctant participants.

The poster we are concerned with here stereotypes all whites as skinhead louts, and it is that stereotyping that makes it offensively racist. Can you imagine the general outcry from the leftist intelligentsia if the representative of the non-white races (certainly not all black) had been shewn as a taxi-driver in the clothing of rural Pakistan and sporting a large beard?

I think Priti Patel, with whom I don't generally agree on much, was right on this.

 

[DarloRich]

That would be an excellent -- and very necessary -- campaign to see run, but it would not be one to be targeted at all whites but rather very specifically at the groups known to be reluctant participants.

The poster we are concerned with here stereotypes all whites as skinhead louts, and it is that stereotyping that makes it offensively racist. Can you imagine the general outcry from the leftist intelligentsia if the representative of the non-white races (certainly not all black) had been shewn as a taxi-driver in the clothing of rural Pakistan and sporting a large beard?

I think Priti Patel, with whom I don't generally agree on much, was right on this.

The poster is a good one and it isn't racist, unless you want something to complain about and/or you read the Daily Mail. It makes a decent point that if you don't take part in the democratic process you leave the field open to any amount of crackpots and nut jobs.

As a white man I don't feel mortally offended by the imagery nor do i feel it represents white males in general.

 

[RichmondCommu]

T
The poster we are concerned with here stereotypes all whites as skinhead louts, and it is that stereotyping that makes it offensively racist. Can you imagine the general outcry from the leftist intelligentsia if the representative of the non-white races (certainly not all black) had been shewn as a taxi-driver in the clothing of rural Pakistan and sporting a large beard?

Why are you offended by someone who wears traditional clothes according to their culture? Are you suggesting that my mother in-law is wrong to wear a sari in Summer?
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The message that it's trying to portray is that all whites are threatening thugs trying to intimidate poor little Indian women.

Of course it isn't. On the contrary the message is that white racist thugs routinely try to intimidate any Asian's who appear to be physically weaker than them for reasons of pathological hatred.

I think this quote from the mp Priti Patel yesterday is very accurate.

Well given that Priti is a key member of the 'Out' campaign she was bound to say that.

Why do you think black people being patronised is the way to go ?

Well it most certainly is not the way to go and that's not what the poster is trying to do

 

[burneside]

I still don't understand what the OBV poster is setting out to achieve. Is it trying to encourage black people to vote Remain?

 

[Senex]

As a white man I don't feel mortally offended by the imagery nor do i feel it represents white males in general.

We shall just have to agree to disagree on this. I do find it greatly offensive (though perhaps not "mortally" so!).
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Why are you offended by someone who wears traditional clothes according to their culture? Are you suggesting that my mother in-law is wrong to wear a sari in Summer?

In this case I was using the clothes reference to indicate a certain type of person whom, I think, people dare not include in a poster such as this one. But in general I do not personally buy into the MultiKulti that politicians etc have forced on us over the last 30 or 40 years. When you go to live in a foreign country, you should in general follow the mores of that country. (And yes, I think this does apply too to the British who go and live in Spain etc.)

I think the right pattern was that of the East Europeans who settled here after WW2, who learnt to speak English well and who for the most part adopted our ways of doing things whilst still keeping their national dress and so on for the national festivals that they continued celebrating. But you and I are clearly not going to agree here.

Of course it isn't. On the contrary the message is that white racist thugs routinely try to intimidate any Asian's who appear to be physically weaker than them for reasons of pathological hatred.

That may be how you read it. I read it very differently, and it is clear that I am not totally alone in the way I see it. Once again, we must agree to differ.

 

[EM2]

I still don't understand what the OBV poster is setting out to achieve. Is it trying to encourage black people to vote Remain?

No. It is simply encouraging them to vote.
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When you go to live in a foreign country, you should in general follow the mores of that country. (And yes, I think this does apply too to the British who go and live in Spain etc.)

But what are the mores of this country when it comes to clothing? A hundred years ago, men all wore hats. Three hundred years ago, they wore tailcoats, breeches and cravats. Five hundred years ago, they wore ruffs and codpieces.

What are the mores of Spain when it comes to clothing? Should all immigrant Brits wear a flamenco dress or a bullfighter's bolero jacket?

 

[burneside]

No. It is simply encouraging them to vote.
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But what are the mores of this country when it comes to clothing? A hundred years ago, men all wore hats. Three hundred years ago, they wore tailcoats, breeches and cravats. Five hundred years ago, they wore ruffs and codpieces.

What are the mores of Spain when it comes to clothing? Should all immigrant Brits wear a flamenco dress or a bullfighter's bolero jacket?

If that's the case, then why is the poster using racist/threatening imagery to convey the message?

 

[TheKnightWho]

If that's the case, then why is the poster using racist/threatening imagery to convey the message?

So you're automatically associating racists with the Out camp? I thought that was exactly what the Out camp denies.

 

[EM2]

If that's the case, then why is the poster using racist/threatening imagery to convey the message?

I don't see any, but if that's what you feel it is using, maybe you should ask them?

 

[burneside]

So you're automatically associating racists with the Out camp? I thought that was exactly what the Out camp denies.

I'm struggling to understand how the imagery in the poster relates to the EU referendum. Possibly threatening-white-skinheads vote for Brexit? Who knows?
It would be interesting to know what brief Saatchi & Saatchi received in order to create such a poster.

 

[RichmondCommu]

In this case I was using the clothes reference to indicate a certain type of person whom, I think, people dare not include in a poster such as this one.

What evidence do you have to support that claim? Get into a Cab and you will often come across a Muslim bloke wearing traditional dress. I don't think the Muslim community would care one iota if a poster was designed with a Muslim gentleman wearing traditional dress. However I dare say that plenty of people would be only too eager to see them kick up a fuss.
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But in general I do not personally buy into the MultiKulti that politicians etc have forced on us over the last 30 or 40 years. When you go to live in a foreign country, you should in general follow the mores of that country. (And yes, I think this does apply too to the British who go and live in Spain etc.)

I know I've asked you this before (and I'm still waiting for a reply) but what on earth is "MultiKulti"? And what makes you think that politicians have forced this upon you? Are you suggesting that we should get rid of everyone that is culturally different to you, even if they haven't done you any harm? Do you think our country would be a better place if there were no cultural differences? And what would you propose to do with these people if they refused to "toe the line"?
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I think the right pattern was that of the East Europeans who settled here after WW2, who learnt to speak English well and who for the most part adopted our ways of doing things whilst still keeping their national dress and so on for the national festivals that they continued celebrating. But you and I are clearly not going to agree here.

So are you suggesting that Asian people who have lived here for decades (indeed the vast majority were born here) don't speak English as well as you apparently do so? And would you care to take the time to explain how they live a different life to you? My wife is a serving Police Officer in the 'Met; would you rather that she wasn't a serving Police officer? Just because she wears a sari at family weddings would you rather have her kicked out of the country? In what way do Asians behave differently to you?
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That may be how you read it. I read it very differently, and it is clear that I am not totally alone in the way I see it. Once again, we must agree to differ.

In that case are you of the opinion that racist thugs do not attack Asians and their property / businesses in this country? Asians that live a peaceful life and indeed sometimes run soup kitchens to help poor, often homeless white people. And yet because they occasionally wear a sari they should be asked to leave the country, according to you?

Did the male in the poster not look like a racist thug to you?
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We shall just have to agree to disagree on this. I do find it greatly offensive (though perhaps not "mortally" so!).

Good grief. You're telling me that you find the poster greatly offensive because it suggests that white thugs attack Asian women and yet you don't think I might be the slightest bit offended given your comments regarding how Asian people choose to dress? How does a woman wearing a sari offend you?

 

[Harbornite]

The poster is a bit pointless and condescending, but by no means offensive to anyone.

 

[Senex]

The poster is a bit pointless and condescending, but by no means offensive to anyone.

That is your opinion, to which you are fully entitled. But as it stands it is simply a statement of that opinion without any accompanying objective analysis to shew us why you might expect us to share it. And there are clearly other opinions, not just within the forum but also reasonably widely outside it.

 

[Harbornite]

That is your opinion, to which you are fully entitled. But as it stands it is simply a statement of that opinion without any accompanying objective analysis to shew us why you might expect us to share it. And there are clearly other opinions, not just within the forum but also reasonably widely outside it.

I've only encountered one person who has called it racist, and that was whoever said it on this forum. There's nothing inherently racist or offensive, it's just a poster and it wasn't intended for the white guy to represent all whites.

 

[Gutfright]

I've only encountered one person who has called it racist, and that was whoever said it on this forum. There's nothing inherently racist or offensive, it's just a poster and it wasn't intended for the white guy to represent all whites.

The subtext behind the poster was clear. White racist thugs will probably vote Brexit, so vote remain out of spite.

If I were black, I would find the poster incredibly offensive. The poster is clearly suggesting that black folks are incapable of basing their decisions on things like facts and reason. Instead the message is clear: Hate whitey? Course you do. Now vote remain.

 

[Senex]

.... and it wasn't intended for the white guy to represent all whites.

How can you possibly know that (unless you perhaps work for the agency that designed it?

 

[miami]

It seems any reasons to either leave or stay in the EU are no longer relevant.

 

[EM2]

The subtext behind the poster was clear. White racist thugs will probably vote Brexit, so vote remain out of spite.

If I were black, I would find the poster incredibly offensive. The poster is clearly suggesting that black folks are incapable of basing their decisions on things like facts and reason. Instead the message is clear: Hate whitey? Course you do. Now vote remain.

You're reading a lot into one image. Taking just what you can actually see, there is a white man pointing at an Asian woman who are on a see-saw that is balanced. The caption above them is a A Vote Is A Vote.
Now to me, as a white male with short hair who often wears a white T-shirt and blue jeans, and has worn oxblood Dr. Martens in the past, the only thing that is saying to ethnic minorities is 'your vote is equal to his vote'. And that's all it says.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Instead the message is clear: Hate whitey? Course you do. Now vote remain.

So are you suggesting that Asians and Black's hate white people?
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And there are clearly other opinions, not just within the forum but also reasonably widely outside it.

In other words the BNP and the EDL?

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'm becoming more and more convinced that there are elements of the right (that by no means encompass all of the right) that have a problem with self-victimisation.

 

[Gutfright]

So are you suggesting that Asians and Black's hate white people?

I'm suggesting that many black and Asian people hate aggressive white racist skinhead thugs.

The people behind OBV know this. That's why they've produced a poster which may as well have been captioned "White racists will be happy if Brexit wins. Vote remain to spite their honkey asses."

Which is completely insulting to the BAME community. Effectively the poster is saying "You people couldn't possibly be expected to understand the issues. So vote remain because white racists will be voting to leave."

OBV has run a disgusting, divisive, condescending and completely indefensible racist poster campaign.
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You're reading a lot into one image. Taking just what you can actually see, there is a white man pointing at an Asian woman who are on a see-saw that is balanced. The caption above them is a A Vote Is A Vote.
Now to me, as a white male with short hair who often wears a white T-shirt and blue jeans, and has worn oxblood Dr. Martens in the past, the only thing that is saying to ethnic minorities is 'your vote is equal to his vote'. And that's all it says.

So why choose to place a snarling, presumably racist, thug on the right hand side of the seesaw? Why not a hipster, or a housewife, or a stamp-collecting retiree?

OBV chose the thug because they want their audience to fear and hate white people. They then want to manipulate this fear and hatred into a vote to remain in the EU.

It's disgusting and unethical, not to mention it being an insult to the intelligence of BAME people.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'm suggesting that many black and Asian people hate aggressive white racist skinhead thugs.

The people behind OBV know this. That's why they've produced a poster which may as well have been captioned "White racists will be happy if Brexit wins. Vote remain to spite their honkey asses."

Which is completely insulting to the BAME community. Effectively the poster is saying "You people couldn't possibly be expected to understand the issues. So vote remain because white racists will be voting to leave."

OBV has run a disgusting, divisive, condescending and completely indefensible racist poster campaign.

It says to vote, not to vote remain. It is you who are associating leave with racism, which I get the impression is the exact opposite of what you want to do.
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So why choose to place a snarling, presumably racist, thug on the right hand side of the seesaw? Why not a hipster, or a housewife, or a stamp-collecting retiree?

OBV chose the thug because they want their audience to fear and hate white people. They then want to manipulate this fear and hatred into a vote to remain in the EU.

It's disgusting and unethical, not to mention it being an insult to the intelligence of BAME people.

If you equate admitting that racism exists with encouraging PoC to hate white people then that says a lot more about you than it does about OBV.

Like I say above - there is a very obvious victim-complex amongst certain sections of the right, and the mental contortions that some are going through here to make themselves be the victims is extremely revealing.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm curious that this poster has had so many different reactions. For my part, my immediate gut reaction on seeing the poster was that it is racist, and should not have been produced, and on reflection I still think that.

My rationale is that on the whole it is very wrong to stereotype groups of people in bad ways. That is true no matter who the people are. It's wrong when UKIP tries to stereotype Eastern Europeans as some kind of swarm trying to steal everyone's jobs and benefits. It's wrong when certain right-wing groups stereotype asylum-seekers as rapists or terrorists etc. And it's no less wrong if the target of the stereotype happens to be something like 'white people' or 'British people'. When you stereotype any group of people as bad, then you risk inciting hatred or fear of people who happen to share that ethnicity/nationality/whatever. And you also stir up feelings of victimhood, or of not being taken seriously etc. by the people being stereotyped. In short, you stir up division between communities, and we all know where that leads.

The poster features a thug who happens also to be a white skinhead. We don't know which group of people this 'thug' was originally intended to represent, but it should be obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that he happens to be the only white person on the poster, so it's likely to be seen in many circles as stereotyping white people. Context is important, so the obvious question is, is there any context which would justify putting that image there. For example, if there was a particular problem of racism by skinhead thugs which this poster was trying to raise awareness of, then you could argue that image was perhaps justified. However, there is no such context: That isn't the purpose of the poster. The context is trying to get ethnic minorities to register to vote. Nothing to do with non-BAME people, so there seems to be no particular reason to put either a white caucasian person or a skinhead on the poster at all. Is there alternatively some context based on irony or humour or raising awareness of some problem that might justify the image? Again, I can't see anything relevant.

Looking at it, another way: If you did a poster trying to get young people to vote, would you seriously do it by trying to portray older people as bad/rich/b*****ds/whatever? I doubt it because that would clearly be offensive (as well as being plain wrong).

In short, the poster has an image which appears to be unnecessary, gratuitous, and clearly portrays a certain group of people in a bad way. The very kindest you could say about the poster is that it's a case of very bad stereotyping. But the obvious racial connotations, to my mind, make it inescapable that resultant image has ended up as racist. (Although I'm quite prepared to accept that might not have been the intention of whoever produced the poster).

OBV chose the thug because they want their audience to fear and hate white people. They then want to manipulate this fear and hatred into a vote to remain in the EU.

I think this is going too far. It's impossible from the poster alone to know what the motives are of those who created it. However, a quick perusal of the Operation Black Vote website shows that it is encouraging BAME people to vote, but not to vote any particular way. Indeed, their main offering on the EU debate is this leaflet which is completely even-handed, giving equal prominence to the views of the 'in' and 'out' campaigns. There seems to be no reason to think that OBV is particularly trying to support one side. I can't even see any particular reason to believe there is hostility to non-blacks amongst OBV. So my suspicion would be that the poster was most likely the result of a cack-handed process in which the people who signed it off either weren't thinking it through properly or hadn't thought about how others would be likely to see the image.

The result is clearly offensive in my eyes, and, as evidenced in this thread, in many other peoples eyes (although equally obviously from this thread, not in everyone's eyes). But trying to link it to some kind of conspiracy for the 'In' campaign is really getting rather silly.

 

[Harbornite]

How can you possibly know that (unless you perhaps work for the agency that designed it?

Because it doesn't need to be said that not all whites are thugs.

 

[Gutfright]

It says to vote, not to vote remain. It is you who are associating leave with racism.

I'm not convinced that these people saying "Subtext? What subtext? Nothing to see here" are as naive as they are making themselves out to be.

Of course, racists and xenophobes are more likely to vote leave. You know it. I know it. OBV knows it. That doesn't mean that Brexit = racist, though.

The OBV poster, building on the groundwork established by much of the media, tries to imply exactly that brexit IS racist.

Let's look at the poster in more detail, shall we?

On the left, we have a meek, elderly Asian woman. Given the context of the poster, she is designed to be as sympathetic as possible. To evoke warm subconscious memories in the viewer of a beloved mother, grandmother or auntie. Clearly this woman was designed to be the protagonist. It ain't exactly subtle.

On the opposite side is a representation of the very worst aspects of white people: snarling, aggressive, yobbish and as obviously racist as the advertisers could make him without photoshopping a swastika onto his forehead. The white man is designed to be the antagonist in this poster. His function in the poster is to evoke any memories the viewer may have of an unpleasant encounter with a white yobbo in their own lives, and thus to provoke fear and hatred in the viewer. Again, subtlety ain't the poster's strong point.

The subtext is quite clear. The subconscious message of the poster is that white racist thugs (who are likely Brexit voters) are on one side and minorities are on the other side. The viewer is supposed to think "Well, I'm not on the side of white racists, therefore I must vote remain".

In a way, it's a similar advertising principle to Marmite's 'Love it or Hate it' campaign. People are supposed to think "Well, I don't hate Marmite therefore I must love it."

The OBV poster is basically hitting you on the head with the message "Don't vote Brexit, it will make white hooligans happy"

I think this is going too far. It's impossible from the poster alone to know what the motives are of those who created it.

Let's be realistic here. It stands to reason that if a person hates ethnic minorities they are probably going to side with Brexit. OBV is trying to use this fact to discourage minorities from voting leave.

The imagery couldn't be much clearer: There are two sides, and if you choose the side of Brexit, remember you are choosing to be on the same side as snarling white racist thugs.

 

[Barn]

Let's be realistic here. It stands to reason that if a person hates ethnic minorities they are probably going to side with Brexit. OBV is trying to use this fact to discourage minorities from voting leave.

It's not as if EU membership coupled with a practical maximum immigration limit leads to white Europeans being preferred to ethnic minority immigrants is it? Oh wait...

 

[Gutfright]

It's not as if EU membership coupled with a practical maximum immigration limit leads to white Europeans being preferred to ethnic minority immigrants is it? Oh wait...

Are you suggesting that most white racist skinheads will be voting remain then?

If not, then what exactly was the point of your post?
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Just for fun, try to answer the following question. Don't try to overthink it, in fact don't think about it at all. Just honestly give the first answer that instinctively comes into your head.

It's June 23rd, referendum day. You see a white skinhead dressed like the guy in the OBV poster. He's screaming and jabbing his finger at an Asian woman in a sari. He then goes in to the polling place and casts his vote.

Did he vote for Brexit?

Your instincts tell you that yes, he probably did. We all instinctively answer that question in the same way. The people who designed the OBV poster know that. They are using that instinctive feeling we all have that xenophobes probably dislike the EU to try to manipulate minority voters to back 'remain'.