Should We Leave the EU?

[TheKnightWho]

Well I certainly do. My wife is of Indian descent and along with her parents / siblings know all too well what it's like to be the victim of racist behavior.

I was going to say. It's reminding people that racism can be counteracted by actually going out and voting.

The only group who I think have a valid complaint are the skinheads, many of whom don't engage in that kind of behaviour (and I've got a couple of friends who're less than happy about the poster because of it).

 

[ExRes]

Well I certainly do. My wife is of Indian descent and along with her parents / siblings know all too well what it's like to be the victim of racist behavior.

So the answer is to be a racist yourself then?

You know full well that if this had been an 'Operation White Vote' poster, assuming there is any such thing, the screams of indignation would be heard all over the media, white racists are unacceptable but black racists are fine, another giant step forward for race relations

 

[Railops]

Simply unbelievable.

 

[anme]

I think we do have an alternative vision for Europe. The Conservatives may have dallianced with trying to impose market economics on everyone in recent years, but the real British vision is for a Europe "a la Carte", i.e. a very loose federation. Just because our fellow Europeans won't countenance it, doesn't mean the idea isn't there.

Interesting that you use the word "federation" - I thought British people (who don't know the meaning of the word) hated the idea of a "federal" Europe?

When has a British politician ever brought forward proposals to this end in the EU? Could you name some actual things that should change?
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Simply unbelievable.

Could you explain why? Isn't it important that we maximise the number of people voting?

 

[ExRes]

Could you explain why? Isn't it important that we maximise the number of people voting?

Because it's blatantly racist, do you really think it necessary to 'maximise' the number of voters by methods such as this? I can just imagine the comments if this poster had BNP on the bottom instead of Operation Black Vote

 

[anme]

Not everyone lives on 'the mainland' either. The Irish, the Maltese and the Cypriots to name just three...

Fair point. How do the Irish, Maltese and Cypriots fit into the world view of those who believe the British are different and special to the rest of Europe?
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Because it's blatantly racist, do you really think it necessary to 'maximise' the number of voters by methods such as this? I can just imagine the comments if this poster had BNP on the bottom instead of Operation Black Vote

Why?

I understand that ethnic minorities are less likely to vote than average. Isn't it good to try to correct this?

 

[Railops]

Could you explain why? Isn't it important that we maximise the number of people voting?

As you well know the mistake is in the poster depicting a skinhead thug as a stereotypical British male.
Would you be so relaxed had the poster been produced by Vote Leave and had been a young white British girl being threatened and pointed at by an old Asian man?

 

[Senex]

As you well know the mistake is in the poster depicting a skinhead thug as a stereotypical British male.
Would you be so relaxed had the poster been produced by Vote Leave and had been a young white British girl being threatened and pointed at by an old Asian man?

Exactly. But I would go further and object also to the "MultiKulti" element of the poster. The Asian voter is depicted not as a fully-integrated member of British society, as so very many of those of Indian origin are, and normally seen in standard western clothes, be that jeans and a sweater or a business suit, but as someone clinging completely to the attire of a different culture and a different country.

The aim of getting as many people as possible to register to vote and then vote in this referendum is an excellent one, but this poster is a most offensive way of trying to do it and there would certainly be howls of protest from the usual sources if it was an Asian male shewn in the threatening posture (especially if it was one who could clearly be identified as a Moslem by the portrayal).

 

[anme]

As you well know the mistake is in the poster depicting a skinhead thug as a stereotypical British male.
Would you be so relaxed had the poster been produced by Vote Leave and had been a young white British girl being threatened and pointed at by an old Asian man?

I find it strange that you believe the "skinhead thug" is representing the "stereotypical British male". There are many depictions of British males in our culture, and British males are very well represented in the referendum campaigns (including almost everyone who speaks publicly for either side). I don't believe anyone seeing this poster is going to conclude that all British males are skinhead thugs.

On the other hand, to use the example you give, there are very few old Asian males involved in the campaign, or in our public life in general. Material demonising a generally under-represented group is therefore more concerning.
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Exactly. But I would go further and object also to the "MultiKulti" element of the poster. The Asian voter is depicted not as a fully-integrated member of British society, as so very many of those of Indian origin are, and normally seen in standard western clothes, be that jeans and a sweater or a business suit, but as someone clinging completely to the attire of a different culture and a different country.

Are you seriously arguing that someone can only be an integrated member of British society if they dress in "standard western clothes"?! In a free country, shouldn't people be free to dress as they wish?

 

[northwichcat]

Based on what he said on the news yesterday Farage doesn't seem to realise what the implications of leaving the EU will be for British travellers. He referred to us having to show our passports more often which he says is a small price to pay to prevent terrorism. However, that isn't the case - Britain leaving the EU won't affect the Schengen Area but it will mean Britains get processed as non-EU nationals when entering the Schengen Area. Perhaps, Farage thinks Britain leaving the EU will cause it to collapse?

 

[miami]

Based on what he said on the news yesterday Farage doesn't seem to realise what the implications of leaving the EU will be for British travellers. He referred to us having to show our passports more often which he says is a small price to pay to prevent terrorism. However, that isn't the case - Britain leaving the EU won't affect the Schengen Area but it will mean Britains get processed as non-EU nationals when entering the Schengen Area. Perhaps, Farage thinks Britain leaving the EU will cause it to collapse?

Does schemgen fingerprint non euers like the USA?

Regardless Switzerland, Iceland and Norway get to go through the eu side at passport control so there'd be no difference there. Because even if we leave we will still have full freedom of movement with Europe, and we'll still implement the regulations and directives.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Exactly. But I would go further and object also to the "MultiKulti" element of the poster. The Asian voter is depicted not as a fully-integrated member of British society, as so very many of those of Indian origin are, and normally seen in standard western clothes, be that jeans and a sweater or a business suit, but as someone clinging completely to the attire of a different culture and a different country.

My mother in law often wears traditional dress in the Summer. I'm sorry that you have a problem with this. Perhaps you would prefer it if she was told to leave the country and give up her properties / businesses?

And what on earth is MultiKulti? Have you just made that up?

 

[Railops]

My mother in law often wears traditional dress in the Summer. I'm sorry that you have a problem with this. Perhaps you would prefer it if she was told to leave the country and give up her properties / businesses?

And what on earth is MultiKulti? Have you just made that up?

Do you think the Black Vote poster is perfectly acceptable ?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Are you seriously arguing that someone can only be an integrated member of British society if they dress in "standard western clothes"?! In a free country, shouldn't people be free to dress as they wish?

Well you would like to think so. On the other hand there are members of the BNP who would like to see none white's deported in cattle wagons and herded to their deaths.

 

[northwichcat]

Regardless Switzerland, Iceland and Norway get to go through the eu side at passport control so there'd be no difference there. Because even if we leave we will still have full freedom of movement with Europe, and we'll still implement the regulations and directives.

The leave campaign see more control over borders as the primary objective of leaving, so adopting a Switzerland, Iceland or Norway approach wouldn't achieve their aim. If we subject people from France and Belgium to longer checks, then those countries won't want to continue to fast track us.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Do you think the Black Vote poster is perfectly acceptable ?

Yes I do. Absolutely. My wife and her parents / siblings are Asian and consequently know all about racial abuse, quite often from skin heads.

I dare say some forum members will be disappointed to read that I'm white and have been very happily married to my Asian wife for 25 years.
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Because it's blatantly racist, do you really think it necessary to 'maximise' the number of voters by methods such as this? I can just imagine the comments if this poster had BNP on the bottom instead of Operation Black Vote

I'm sorry (actually no I'm not) but you wouldn't know racist behavior if you fell over it.

 

[EM2]

Because it's blatantly racist, do you really think it necessary to 'maximise' the number of voters by methods such as this? I can just imagine the comments if this poster had BNP on the bottom instead of Operation Black Vote

Why is it blatantly racist? All it says is that the vote of the white male carries as much weight (hence the see-saw) as the Asian female.

 

[Barn]

The leave campaign see more control over borders as the primary objective of leaving, so adopting a Switzerland, Iceland or Norway approach wouldn't achieve their aim. If we subject people from France and Belgium to longer checks, then those countries won't want to continue to fast track us.

We need to be clear that there are three different but related aspects to immigration control. They are sometimes conflated.

- Presence or absence of border posts - Clearly we would continue to maintain documentation checks as we do now.

- Requirement for visas / eligibility for fast-track processing - I haven't heard any serious politician suggesting that Europeans will require visas or lengthy processing at borders to access the country.

- Right of permanent abode and to work without a permit - This is up for debate, and will depend upon which Government we elect and how other countries react.

 

[EM2]

Fair point. How do the Irish, Maltese and Cypriots fit into the world view of those who believe the British are different and special to the rest of Europe?

I have no idea. My point was that the rest of Europe isn't one homogeneous 'mainland'.

 

[northwichcat]

We need to be clear that there are three different but related aspects to immigration control. They are sometimes conflated.
...
- Requirement for visas / eligibility for fast-track processing - I haven't heard any serious politician suggesting that Europeans will require visas or lengthy processing at borders to access the country.

I was also referring to how other EU countries see British nationals. If we leave the EU we'll have no control over what checks are undertaken when we enter/leave the EU. Britain has disagreed with Spain in the past over the Gibraltar border and if we leave the EU Spain will have more control over what happens for people entering Spain via the Gibraltar border - they could choose to close it altogether, like they did before the EU, if they wanted. One reason the Gibraltar to Algeciras ferry service ended was a lack of a channel for EU arrivals meaning arrivals from Gibraltar could have to wait behind hundreds of people arriving from Tangier.

 

[miami]

The leave campaign see more control over borders as the primary objective of leaving, so adopting a Switzerland, Iceland or Norway approach wouldn't achieve their aim. If we subject people from France and Belgium to longer checks, then those countries won't want to continue to fast track us.

But this isn't a general election that will elect the "leave campaign" as people in charge. On a "leave" vote, the government will do the upmost to minimise the economic impact - especially the short term economic impact, which will basically mean becoming somthing "not in the eu, but still embedded", I would estimate something closer to EU membership than Norway.

A leave vote will also bolster nationalist ranks across europe, and may lead to a fracturing of europe and the continent regressing 100 years, but this time without large empires that the various countries control to keep things going financially.

War is always good for the economy though. And good for reducing the population.

 

[northwichcat]

But this isn't a general election that will elect the "leave campaign" as people in charge. On a "leave" vote, the government will do the upmost to minimise the economic impact

The Conservative Party have reportedly agreed that if we vote leave Cameron will remain as PM until the next election with Michael Gove being put in charge of leave negotiations and Cameron will stay out of them. That has resulted in many teachers saying they will vote stay.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I do find it interesting how certain members of the forum fall over themselves to point out extremely vague allusions to discrimination against white people, and yet are the very same people who never, ever make any effort to point out the quite blatant discrimination against other ethnic groups.

Quite a double standard, to be honest.

 

[Senex]

The Conservative Party have reportedly agreed that if we vote leave Cameron will remain as PM until the next election with Michael Gove being put in charge of leave negotiations and Cameron will stay out of them. That has resulted in many teachers saying they will vote stay.

Wouldn't Cameron then be rather a lame-duck PM for the rest of his time in office? And with the leave negotiations inevitably occupying a huge amount of government and then parliamentary time, would anything very much else get done or dealt with in the remainder of this government's time in office? (And then what sort of image and programme would a bitterly divided Tory party be able to put before the electorate at the next general election?)

 

[miami]

Wouldn't Cameron then be rather a lame-duck PM for the rest of his time in office? And with the leave negotiations inevitably occupying a huge amount of government and then parliamentary time, would anything very much else get done or dealt with in the remainder of this government's time in office? (And then what sort of image and programme would a bitterly divided Tory party be able to put before the electorate at the next general election?)

It wouldn't surprise me if there's a "This House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government" disolution post brexit vote. And with the mess the tories would be in at this stage I think that's a fair enough opinion for many to hold.

2 weeks later the same vote would mean a disolution and then a general election at the end of august.

 

[northwichcat]

2 weeks later the same vote would mean a disolution and then a general election at the end of august.

And a long process of trying to form a government as I can't see either the Conservatives or Labour getting a majority and while the SNP would want to form a coalition with Labour, I can't see Labour agreeing to one straight away.

 

[Barn]

Wouldn't Cameron then be rather a lame-duck PM for the rest of his time in office? And with the leave negotiations inevitably occupying a huge amount of government and then parliamentary time, would anything very much else get done or dealt with in the remainder of this government's time in office? (And then what sort of image and programme would a bitterly divided Tory party be able to put before the electorate at the next general election?)

The Tories would be bitterly divided in the event of a remain vote. There would be lots of Tory MPs who would feel that Cameron and Osborne had deceived voters with Project Fear and ruined the one chance of Brexit.

In the event of a leave vote, there would be some disappointed Tory MPs but I don't see a massive division in the party. A large number of Tory parliamentary remainers are just being loyal to the view of the leadership. Many would have gone the other way if asked to and they will remain onside after a Brexit vote.

Although I'm personally for Brexit, if I was advising someone who really wanted to stick it to Cameron, I'd tell them to vote with him on this, not against him.

 

[meridian2]

I do find it interesting how certain members of the forum fall over themselves to point out extremely vague allusions to discrimination against white people, and yet are the very same people who never, ever make any effort to point out the quite blatant discrimination against other ethnic groups.

Quite a double standard, to be honest.

That's because it is a double standard, and it's very hard to point out discrimination against white people when the same people point out the discrimination against 'ethnic minorities' so readily.

 

[southern442]

Both campaigns have started to get really patronizing recently. That #votin video actually looked like a parody made by the Brexit campaign (like what the Greens did with their 'don't vote for Sian Berry' thing on YouTube) and Operation Black Vote? It seems bizarre that they need a separate campaign for people of ethnic minorities, and to group them all under this 'Black Vote' thing is really weird, not really something I would expect from people running the country. You also have George Osborne saying that house prices will fall if we leave the EU.... come on! That might not be a good thing to the ultra-rich property owners like himself but for around 90% of the population it is! Congratulations, you have now convinced a whole bunch of people to vote for the opposite to what you are campaigning for, well done.

I'm all for staying in the EU but Cameron and Osborne are making a complete fool of themselves and are quite frankly screwing up the Remain campaign.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am aware that on this particular website, in the three and a half months that this thread has been running since 2nd February, there have been many worries expressed as to how worker's rights could be affected if the referendum went in favour of the leave campaign with a right-wing British government in power, which makes me wonder to the state of the poll attached to the thread that currently shows the following:-

Stay in EU........60.08%
Leave the EU....32.77%
Don't know........7.14%