Should We Leave the EU?

[yorksrob]

The way I'm leaning on the issue, I must be old before my time.

 

[northwichcat]

Imagine the disdain of a Leave supporter walking towards that aircraft at the departure gate!

I imagine they'll think it means the plane has to remain in Europe and can't be used for longer flights due to the limited amount of leg room on offer.

 

[Aldaniti]

And in today's news from Cameron and Project Fear .... he's persuaded some of his big business chums to write to their employees to put the frighteners on them with a one-sided argument. If Cameron wins the day, he's going to have a lot knighthoods, peerages and other such gongs to hand out ...

http://news.sky.com/story/1697273/bosses-told-to-warn-workers-of-brexit-risks

 

[TheKnightWho]

And in today's news from Cameron and Project Fear .... he's persuaded some of his big business chums to write to their employees to put the frighteners on them with a one-sided argument. If Cameron wins the day, he's going to have a lot knighthoods, peerages and other such gongs to hand out ...

http://news.sky.com/story/1697273/bosses-told-to-warn-workers-of-brexit-risks

And also in the news, Nigel Farage has committed to a neverendum if he loses, which is a rather more severe error of judgement to be honest. So much for caring about the "will of the people". Rather more hypocritical than Cameron, who has just enlisted supporters to help him.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

Almost like the whole "man of the people" thing is a complete con

 

[miami]

Paul Mason has probably the best argument for leaving the EU that I've seen so far.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory

I don't agree with his argument, but it's a reasoned argument.

The leftwing case for Brexit is strategic and clear. The EU is not – and cannot become – a democracy. Instead, it provides the most hospitable ecosystem in the developed world for rentier monopoly corporations, tax-dodging elites and organised crime. It has an executive so powerful it could crush the leftwing government of Greece; a legislature so weak that it cannot effectively determine laws or control its own civil service. A judiciary that, in the Laval and Viking judgments, subordinated workers’ right to strike to an employer’s right do business freely.

....
All this suggests that those of us who want Brexit in order to reimpose democracy, promote social justice and subordinate companies to the rule of law should bide our time. But here’s the price we will pay. Hungary is one electoral accident away from going fascist; the French conservative elite is one false move away from handing the presidency to the Front National; in Austria the far-right FPÖ swept the first round of the presidential polls. Geert Wilders’s virulently Islamophobic PVV is leading the Dutch opinion polls.

The EU’s economic failure is fuelling racism and the ultra right. Boris Johnson’s comparison of the EU with the Third Reich was facile. The more accurate comparison is with the Weimar Republic: a flawed democracy whose failures fuelled the rise of fascism. And this swing to the far right prompts the more basic dilemma: do I even want to be part of the same electorate as millions of closet Nazis in mainland Europe?

 

[Harbornite]

Closet Nazis? Really? That article also overlooks the cockups and corruption associated with the Greek Government.

 

[backontrack]

HOW LONG UNTIL YOU'RE AN OUTER?

Judging by what the Mail usually says, I expected that to be about belly buttons

 

[miami]

Closet Nazis? Really? That article also overlooks the cockups and corruption associated with the Greek Government.

True, not really in the closet. The success of the far-right in europe (where our own far right - BNP and "Britain First" - are ridiculed) is a concern. Like trump voters, whether they win with 51% or lose with 49%, the fact remains a significant number of people vote for them.

They got 27.10% last year. That would be enough to be the official opposition in the Scottish parliament.

 

[Railops]

Closet Nazis? Really?

Having worked and lived in Germany the place is full of wannabee and closet Nazis, they have never gone away and of course have now been given a massive impetus with Merkels disastrous opening of Europe's doors to the whole world.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Having worked and lived in Germany the place is full of wannabee and closet Nazis, they have never gone away and of course have now been given a massive impetus with Merkels disastrous opening of Europe's doors to the whole world.

Heard it here folks: the EU is bad because Germany is full of closet Nazis.

This is becoming funny.

 

[jon91]

Heard it here folks: the EU is bad because Germany is full of closet Nazis.

This is becoming funny.

Its not like we have a problem with far-right extremism.

Oh, wait...

 

[Harbornite]

True, not really in the closet. The success of the far-right in europe (where our own far right - BNP and "Britain First" - are ridiculed) is a concern. Like trump voters, whether they win with 51% or lose with 49%, the fact remains a significant number of people vote for them.

They got 27.10% last year. That would be enough to be the official opposition in the Scottish parliament.

Is that really the fault of the EU? No it isn't. Every country has its share of nutters and far right supporters, and these movements didn't suddenly emerge when the EU came into being in 1992.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Heard it here folks: the EU is bad because Germany is full of closet Nazis.

This is becoming funny.

This getting stupid, it looks like we shouldn't have any dealings with countries that have far right movements!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Its not like we have a problem with far-right extremism.

Oh, wait...

We do. But it is not because of the Nazis and it is not isolated to Germany.

 

[miami]

Is that really the fault of the EU? No it isn't. Every country has its share of nutters and far right supporters, and these movements didn't suddenly emerge when the EU came into being in 1992.

It's not the EU as an organisation's fault, however one does have to think twice about the support the far right (and no, the little englanders in UKIP are not far right) has in many european countries - do we really share the same cultural priorities when it comes down to it?

France National Front - 27%
Hungary Jobbik - 20.22%
Sweden Swedish Democrats - 12.9%
Greece Golden Dawn - 7%
UK BNP + Britain First combined (Mayoral election) - 1.7%

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This getting stupid, it looks like we shouldn't have any dealings with countries that have far right movements!

Or far-left ones also...
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I still think that one of the more notable events to have occurred in Europe was that of the RECONQUISTA which ended with the final victory over the Islamic Moors in 1492, which saw both Spain and Portugal freed from that form of Islamic rule in Western Europe.

 

[northwichcat]

UK BNP + Britain First combined (Mayoral election) - 1.7%

The ones who are telling us we should ask the red squirrels if immigration works. :roll:

 

[TheKnightWho]

Or far-left ones also...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I still think that one of the more notable events to have occurred in Europe was that of the RECONQUISTA which ended with the final victory over the Islamic Moors in 1492, which saw both Spain and Portugal freed from that form of Islamic rule in Western Europe.

Are you attempting to draw parallels with what you think should happen in Europe now..?

 

[Railops]

[youtube]i-UbT0g9A8c[/youtube]

This is a short video about how Norway were told all the same stories as we're being told now if they didn't join the EU - High Interest rates, complete isolation, huge job losses, inability to do any trade with the EU etc. all turned out to be totally made up and never happened.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Could you explain how the British and Norwegian economies are comparable? Norway is also a member of the EEA, which means they have little/no influence in the EU but have to abide by many of its controls: the worst of both worlds.

 

[Railops]

Could you explain how the British and Norwegian economies are comparable?

Irrelevant, lies are lies, what has that got to do with anything, is that the best you can come up with.
Norway is such a terrible place to live isn't it ? not like all those wonderful EU Mediterranean countries with booming economies and high employment like Spain and Greece.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Irrelevant, lies are lies, what has that got to do with anything, is that the best you can come up with.
Norway is such a terrible place to live isn't it ? not like all those wonderful EU Mediterranean countries with booming economies and high employment like Spain and Greece.

But you're saying the statements won't come true - that's not the same as calling them lies, which implies certainty (and that we're being intentionally misled, which begs the question of why). It only works if Britain is comparable to Norway. Is it?

I don't expect you'll actually answer the question, but it'd be good to see if you actually have anything to back up your assertion.

 

[Railops]

But you're saying the statements won't come true - that's not the same as calling them lies, which implies certainty (and that we're being intentionally misled, which begs the question of why). It only works if Britain is comparable to Norway. Is it?

I don't expect you'll actually answer the question, but it'd be good to see if you actually have anything to back up your assertion.

This is where all the lefties have a dilemma, hating anything that Cameron says literally anything, but then having to back him fully for his stance on the EU and taking all his predictions of gloom and war as gospel because it fits your agenda.

 

[TheKnightWho]

This is where all the lefties have a dilemma, hating anything that Cameron says literally anything, but then having to back him fully for his stance on the EU and taking all his predictions of gloom and war as gospel because it fits your agenda.

No, this is where you struggle to understand how people can support someone on one issue and fight against them on a different one. Not all of us are zealots like you: stop projecting.

Also, I've noticed you've dodged the question yet again. Are you a politician or something?

 

[Harbornite]

No, this is where you struggle to understand how people can support someone on one issue and fight against them on a different one. Not all of us are zealots like you: stop projecting.

Also, I've noticed you've dodged the question yet again. Are you a politician or something?

Good point, some of these Brexiters are really scraping the barrel.
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Or far-left ones also...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I still think that one of the more notable events to have occurred in Europe was that of the RECONQUISTA which ended with the final victory over the Islamic Moors in 1492, which saw both Spain and Portugal freed from that form of Islamic rule in Western Europe.

Interesting stuff, but I'm not sure how it applies to Brexit.

 

[47802]

[youtube]i-UbT0g9A8c[/youtube]

This is a short video about how Norway were told all the same stories as we're being told now if they didn't join the EU - High Interest rates, complete isolation, huge job losses, inability to do any trade with the EU etc. all turned out to be totally made up and never happened.

Well regardless of what that video says is it not the case that Norway's agreement with the EU means that they have to implement a significant number EU directives and accept free movement of workers for EU nationals.

Now I suspect that the biggest issue the majority of people have with the EU is the free movement of workers in the EU

Now I think some Brexit's seem to think that we can have our cake and eat it in that we can have a good trade deal with the EU that doesn't damage us economically but not accept free movement of workers, I don't believe that will be the case and we either get a good trade deal with the EU but have to accept freedom of movement of workers, or we get a trade deal which damages us economically but we don't have to accept freedom of movement of workers.

I think some Brexit's realise the latter will be the case but think it will be a price worth paying, I don't and in a former case we may as well just stay in the EU.

Hence I will reluctantly vote to stay in the EU.

 

[richa2002]

Well regardless of what that video says is it not the case that Norway's agreement with the EU means that they have to implement a significant number EU directives and accept free movement of workers for EU nationals.

Now I suspect that the biggest issue the majority of people have with the EU is the free movement of workers in the EU

Now I think some Brexit's seem to think that we can have our cake and eat it in that we can have a good trade deal with the EU that doesn't damage us economically but not accept free movement of workers, I don't believe that will be the case and we either get a good trade deal with the EU but have to accept freedom of movement of workers, or we get a trade deal which damages us economically but we don't have to accept freedom of movement of workers.

I think some Brexit's realise the latter will be the case but think it will be a price worth paying, I don't and in a former case we may as well just stay in the EU.

Hence I will reluctantly vote to stay in the EU.

All I can do is to implore you to recognise that democracy and the ability to throw out your lawmakers if you don't agree with them is more important than debatable harm to GDP.

Also, why do you think we have to accept free movement of workers for a 'good trade deal' with the EU? Whatever a 'good' trade deal is that is. Very few, if any, countries in the world subscribe to this so why do we, one of the world's largest economies, need to? Is it so good that we should trade our democracy and control of borders to keep it?

Let's for one minute say you're right too, that to have a 'good trade deal' outside of the EU, we'd need to accept freedom of movement, we'd still be in the same position as now but without the massive membership fee and being dictated to on a wide range of matters. Okay, there might still be a fee and we'd have to abide by some directives in exchange for subscribing to freedom of movement but we'd still have a greater degree of independence than before.

This is a worst case scenario too, I thoroughly believe we wouldn't have to subscribe to the absurd freedom of movement principle. Why is being able to supply unlimited cheap labour to the low-end of the job's market seen as desirable? It suppresses wages and only benefits the rich.

Come on, have some back-bone and not feel like you have be tied to an unaccountable political union to survive. It's absolute nonsense.

 

[TheKnightWho]

All I can do is to implore you to recognise that democracy and the ability to throw out your lawmakers if you don't agree with them is more important than debatable harm to GDP.

Also, why do you think we have to accept free movement of workers for a 'good trade deal' with the EU? Whatever a 'good' trade deal is that is. Very few, if any, countries in the world subscribe to this so why do we, one of the world's largest economies, need to? Is it so good that we should trade our democracy and control of borders to keep it?

Let's for one minute say you're right too, that to have a 'good trade deal' outside of the EU, we'd need to accept freedom of movement, we'd still be in the same position as now but without the massive membership fee and being dictated to on a wide range of matters. Okay, there might still be a fee and we'd have to abide by some directives in exchange for subscribing to freedom of movement but we'd still have a greater degree of independence than before.

Norway, Switzerland etc. both pay money into the EU and have to subscribe to many of its agreements and policies. The idea that we can get the best of both worlds is an over-optimistic myth.

 

[richa2002]

Norway, Switzerland etc. both pay money into the EU and have to subscribe to many of its agreements and policies. The idea that we can get the best of both worlds is an over-optimistic myth.

Do they pay as much money as a member state though? And do they have to subscribe to as many agreements and policies as a member state? I severely doubt it.

Either way, there's no reason why we have to be Norway or Switzerland. We're the fifth largest economy.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Do they pay as much money as a member state though? And do they have to subscribe to as many agreements and policies as a member state? I severely doubt it.

Either way, there's no reason why we have to be Norway or Switzerland. We're the fifth largest economy.

The importance is relative size, not what ranking we are. I don't care if we're the 5th biggest - we're dwarfed by those that actually have clout on the world stage. Can you actually explain why our situation would be different by appealing to something actually substantial?

And just saying "[you] doubt it" doesn't mean much when, as stated above, Norway pays 80% as much as the UK does.

 

[NSEFAN]

Norway is such a terrible place to live isn't it ? not like all those wonderful EU Mediterranean countries with booming economies and high employment like Spain and Greece.

EU membership isn't the only factor, though. Norway has made vast amounts of money for the relatively small population that it has, thanks to it's natural resources and seemingly well-organised government. Perhaps I'm just cynical, but I don't think the UK government is quite so well organised or keen to help the people it claims to represent...