Should We Leave the EU?

[Antman]

From the Tory party, who just want to expand immigration to the rest of the world instead of giving EU migrants a special status? I think this is as deluded as those on the far-left who want to leave so we can become a socialist utopia.

That's aside from the rest of our remaining industry closing down as it no longer remains competitive on the world stage.

So you would be in favour of screwing the working class in order to "remain competitive on the world stage"?

 

[TheKnightWho]

So you would be in favour of screwing the working class in order to "remain competitive on the world stage"?

So you'd be in favour of people having no jobs, rather than poorly paid jobs then?

 

[NSEFAN]

screwing the working class in order to "remain competitive on the world stage"

We got a Conservative goverment out of the last election, so that's a given regardless of the EU referendum result, and will continue to be so whilst Labour is seen to be unelectable by the majority opinion.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So you would be in favour of screwing the working class in order to "remain competitive on the world stage"?

Nothing like a little use of emotive phrases to raise the hackles of those opposed to your point of view....

 

[miami]

We got a Conservative goverment out of the last election, so that's a given regardless of the EU referendum result, and will continue to be so whilst Labour is seen to be unelectable by the majority opinion.

Fortunately we have the eu protecting things like guarenteed holidays, equal pay and maternity leave.

Unless of course you thing Corbyn Is a right wing Tory stooge.

 

[Antman]

Nothing like a little use of emotive phrases to raise the hackles of those opposed to your point of view....

Nothing emotive about it
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Fortunately we have the eu protecting things like guarenteed holidays, equal pay and maternity leave.

Unless of course you thing Corbyn Is a right wing Tory stooge.

Err, zero hours contracts, ie modern day slavery!

 

[miami]

Err, zero hours contracts, ie modern day slavery!

If only Europe had more power

http://www.euractiv.com/section/social-europe-jobs/news/uk-reprimanded-over-zero-hour-contracts/

The European Commission told EurActiv, “It is important that people on zero-hours contracts do not become trapped in a succession of short-term, low quality jobs with inadequate social protection.”

It added, “The UK has an obligation to ensure compliance with the working conditions standards set by EU labour law, including paid annual leave proportionate to time worked and respect for the Working Time Directive.”

....

Outgoing British MEP Stephen Hughes, a former chair of the European Parliament’s employment and social affairs committee, said “It is time to act at EU level”. He advised the upcoming Parliament to seize the opportunity when the next commissioner in charge of employment comes before them for a confirmation hearing in September.

“The hearings with the European Commission must be an opportunity to put well-thought questions, pin the future commissioner down and get an answer,” he said.

For the Trade Unions Congress (TUC) EU-level action needs to be more concrete. Elena Crasta, senior policy officer at the TUC, said the commission should “tighten up the employment directives by closing loopholes at the source.”

In the UK, she said, employees have a much stronger social protection than other types of workers. But the UK tends to restrict the scope of application of EU employment legislation to employee-status only when time for implementation comes, leaving a large number of workers including the disposable ‘zero-hour’ ones, out of reach.

Commenting on the commission’s reaction to the increase of precarious contracts in the UK, Crasta said that it is, “important that the working time directive applies to all workers and not only employees.”

For older cases, she said, the Commission could also look into the way such directives have been implemented so far and “take the UK to court”.

Your problem is too much power in the UK government and not enough in the EU. And leavers want that situation made even worse.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Nothing emotive about it
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Err, zero hours contracts, ie modern day slavery!

I repeat: are you in favour of no jobs rather than poorly paid jobs? Plus the number of zero-hours contracts will sky-rocket if we leave Europe since wages will go up, and if you think the government is going to subsidise industry you've got another thing coming.

Higher wages do not automatically mean the working class prospers, because it goes hand-in-hand with people being laid off. I have experienced this first-hand.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Err, zero hours contracts, ie modern day slavery!

If you had seen some of the recent "modern day British slavery" court cases that had been tried in the British courts, where people had been kept in the most utterly desperate conditions for years (a recent one concerned someone who had been held captive by "travellers" for a number of years) and given "food" of the worst kind to eat, then you would realise what modern day British slavery actually means.

Are those who you describe kept away from their families for long periods of time and kept lacking from basic human needs?

 

[Antman]

I repeat: are you in favour of no jobs rather than poorly paid jobs? Plus the number of zero-hours contracts will sky-rocket if we leave Europe since wages will go up, and if you think the government is going to subsidise industry you've got another thing coming.

Higher wages do not automatically mean the working class prospers, because it goes hand-in-hand with people being laid off. I have experienced this first-hand.

This isn't an either/or situation.
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If you had seen some of the recent "modern day British slavery" court cases that had been tried in the British courts, where people had been kept in the most utterly desperate conditions for years (a recent one concerned someone who had been held captive by "travellers" for a number of years) and given "food" of the worst kind to eat, then you would realise what modern day British slavery actually means.

Are those who you describe kept away from their families for long periods of time and kept lacking from basic human needs?

That is obviously illegal, zero hours is legal slavery.

It's common practice particularly in the hotel and catering industries and it basically means you are on call 24/7 and if you decline the work you'll probably be put at the bottom of the list.

 

[miami]

It's common practice particularly in the hotel and catering industries and it basically means you are on call 24/7 and if you decline the work you'll probably be put at the bottom of the list.

Using the word slavery in this context is a common use of the word,

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wage slave

a person dependent on wages or a salary for a livelihood

However it does demean the word slavery somewhat

On the other hand, being free to not work falls down when you are also free to not eat, not house yourself, etc.

If only the EU were stronger there could be protections. If you're against zero hour contracts, vote to stay, and ensure your local MEP (you're bound to find one sympathetic to your views) pushes for it.

 

[Antman]

Using the word slavery in this context is a common use of the word,

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wage slave


However it does demean the word slavery somewhat

On the other hand, being free to not work falls down when you are also free to not eat, not house yourself, etc.

If only the EU were stronger there could be protections. If you're against zero hour contracts, vote to stay, and ensure your local MEP (you're bound to find one sympathetic to your views) pushes for it.

If we're out of the EU then the employment market will sort itself out. There will no longer be an endless supply of cheap labour from abroad and so employers will have to up the standards.

 

[richa2002]

If only the EU were stronger there could be protections. If you're against zero hour contracts, vote to stay, and ensure your local MEP (you're bound to find one sympathetic to your views) pushes for it.

Just know that your word is just as strong as someone's in France, Germany or Spain etc. In other words, extremely watered down and pretty much useless. Let the British decide these things for themselves, not Europe.

 

[TheKnightWho]

This isn't an either/or situation.

Go on - explain then. How are you going to increase wages and keep people their jobs?

Almost like this is fantasy that has no basis in the real-world...
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If we're out of the EU then the employment market will sort itself out. There will no longer be an endless supply of cheap labour from abroad and so employers will have to up the standards.

No it will not. Our industry requires the global market to survive, and you have just massively driven up costs through wages, for better or worse. Labour and wages are only one part of the picture. It's no good having better wages if there are no jobs to actually give them!

Or was it Eastern European migrants that made our mines and steel uneconomic? They should have been subsidised (or at the very least run-down slowly), but given a socialist government has a snowball's chance in hell of actually existing - especially a protectionist one - we have to make do with the world we're living in.
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Just know that your word is just as strong as someone's in France, Germany or Spain etc. In other words, extremely watered down and pretty much useless. Let the British decide these things for themselves, not Europe.

You honestly think that Britain is going to get rid of zero-hour contracts? And that it's more likely to than Europe?

 

[miami]

Or was it Eastern European migrants that made our mines and steel uneconomic? They should have been subsidised (or at the very least run-down slowly), but given a socialist government has a snowball's chance in hell of actually existing - especially a protectionist one - we have to make do with the world we're living in.

Running down slowly and pushing resources into rebalancing the local econmies over the last 40 years would have been a better solution, however that would wouldn't suit Labour or the Conservatives (Labour relying on support of "I'm a miner, my father's a miner, so why shouldn't the next generation be miners", and the Conservatives being unwilling (or perhaps unable) to change the economy).

At least Europe is investing in places like Merthyr.

 

[DarloRich]

Just know that your word is just as strong as someone's in France, Germany or Spain etc. In other words, extremely watered down and pretty much useless. Let the British decide these things for themselves, not Europe.

Ah! The broken record technique. Still no understanding of the nature and effect of EU membership.

 

[Antman]

Go on - explain then. How are you going to increase wages and keep people their jobs?

Almost like this is fantasy that has no basis in the real-world...
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No it will not. Our industry requires the global market to survive, and you have just massively driven up costs through wages, for better or worse. Labour and wages are only one part of the picture. It's no good having better wages if there are no jobs to actually give them!

Or was it Eastern European migrants that made our mines and steel uneconomic? They should have been subsidised (or at the very least run-down slowly), but given a socialist government has a snowball's chance in hell of actually existing - especially a protectionist one - we have to make do with the world we're living in.
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You honestly think that Britain is going to get rid of zero-hour contracts? And that it's more likely to than Europe?

You are obsessed with the idea that we have to have either rock bottom wages or mass unemployment.

Zero hours contracts will go when people refuse to accept them, ie no cheap labour from abroad to supress wages.

 

[miami]

You honestly think that Britain is going to get rid of zero-hour contracts? And that it's more likely to than Europe?

I believe the argument is "we can't get rid of them now because of Europe". This is of course a massive lie. There may be strong economic reasons not to get rid of them, and they're probably a response to things like workers rights that europe has put in. I guess that without Europe guaranteeing employees rights there would be less need for zero-hour contracts as everyone else can be treated in the same way. It doesn't solve the fundamental problem of poor treatment of people relying on zero-hours.

Cheap labour from Europe (and in places like China when it comes to commodity manufacturing that can be easily offshored) has probably done one thing - reduce the spend on automation. Cut that off, and we get more robots replacing jobs instead, and rather than european immigrants earning £50 and spending £40 of it locally, keeping local shops in business, we have a Japanese robot costing £60 and spending £0 locally.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You are obsessed with the idea that we have to have either rock bottom wages or mass unemployment.

Zero hours contracts will go when people refuse to accept them, ie no cheap labour from abroad to supress wages.

So you want there to be a huge welfare bill then?

Plus you're still ignoring the point: massively higher wages will make British industry go bankrupt. It's already teetering as it is.

 

[miami]

Just know that your word is just as strong as someone's in France, Germany or Spain etc. In other words, extremely watered down and pretty much useless. Let the British decide these things for themselves, not Europe.

An office cleaner in Dundee has far more in common with an office cleaner in Munich than they do with a lawyer in Surrey.

Thanks to the way the UK and EU democracy is run, all the office cleaners in Scotland have no say in the UK government, but office cleaners across Europe actually have a significant voice in the European parliament.

 

[Railops]

For months now all we've heard from the insular Remainers is how if we Leave it's a leap in the dark and nobody could possibly predict what would happen with Brexit.

Then along comes Osborne with a 200 page report packed with graphs and maths that predicts with amazing accuracy what the economy will be like in 14 years to the exact pound.
Osborne and the treasury both have lamentable forecasting records including wanting to join the Euro.Neither can predict with any accuracy what the economy will be like in 6 months.On the tv they said if you look at forecasts from 14 years ago they are literally miles and miles away from accuracy.

This report which Osborne calls Independent has been produced by his treasury which he is in charge of so it's totally Govt. propaganda and is in no way Independent.
It's worthless as nobody in the world can possibly predict our economy in 14 years, we could have had a couple of wars by then.


I notice Prof. Minford from the Institute for Economic Affairs reckons leaving the EU would save every household £9,265 a year and that isn't in 14 years that is after withdrawal.

http://www.iea.org.uk/in-the-media/press-release/eu-policies-threaten-to-cost-britain-%C2%A39265-household

With the EU referendum set to take place before the end of 2017, the UK electorate arguably faces one of the most important decisions in a generation. Professor Patrick Minford finds that continued EU membership may cost us at least 13 per cent of GDP each year; in today's terms, £9,265 per household.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Imperfect predictions does not make it a 50/50 that things will get better or worse. If that was the case, there'd be no point having a government at all as apparently they wouldn't be able to do anything since it'd all give random results.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I notice Prof. Minford from the Institute for Economic Affairs reckons leaving the EU would save every household £9,265 a year and that isn't in 14 years that is after withdrawal.

http://www.iea.org.uk/in-the-media/press-release/eu-policies-threaten-to-cost-britain-%C2%A39265-household

Being one who tends to read what is written in the quote attached to your posting, he says "may cost" which is very different than "will cost". I suppose that you too also noticed that.

 

[Railops]

Being one who tends to read what is written in the quote attached to your posting, he says "may cost" which is very different than "will cost". I suppose that you too also noticed that.

Nothing is written in stone of course, but Osborne said his were "facts" more than once which is plainly not the case and his "facts" have even been criticised by Nicola Sturgeon and she's well on the Remain side.

 

[northwichcat]

Farage
Gove
Boris
Daily Mail

All hideously anti-EU, who need any more evidence an IN vote is the only sensible one.

The Daily Mail today reported that 123 Reg deleted part of the Internet by accident, showing that they don't even know what the Internet is and that their journalist either didn't bother to check or asked Maurice Moss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbyYGrswtg

How can anyone trust a newspaper which has journalists who write about topics they don't know about?

 

[Antman]

Ah! The broken record technique. Still no understanding of the nature and effect of EU membership.

Perhaps you could enlighten us all as you're obviously such an expert?
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Nothing is written in stone of course, but Osborne said his were "facts" more than once which is plainly not the case and his "facts" have even been criticised by Nicola Sturgeon and she's well on the Remain side.

I suspect all Osborne has done is persuade more people we're better off out
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So you want there to be a huge welfare bill then?

Plus you're still ignoring the point: massively higher wages will make British industry go bankrupt. It's already teetering as it is.

OMG you really are a bundle of joy, what are you the minister for doom and gloom?

 

[WessexEclectic]

Thanks to the way the UK and EU democracy is run, all the office cleaners in Scotland have no say in the UK government, but office cleaners across Europe actually have a significant voice in the European parliament.

How so?

 

[TheKnightWho]

OMG you really are a bundle of joy, what are you the minister for doom and gloom?

Suddenly so optimistic when posed with the difficult questions!

Why do you want thousands to lose their jobs and make businesses go bankrupt?

 

[Antman]

Suddenly so optimistic when posed with the difficult questions!

Why do you want thousands to lose their jobs and make businesses go bankrupt?

Is that something you dreamt one night?

Best avoid eating cheese before bedtime

 

[TheKnightWho]

Is that something you dreamt one night?

Best avoid eating cheese before bedtime

Why do you want thousands to lose their jobs by driving up business costs? Why do you want to destroy British industry?

It's something that will happen if you get want you want and wages rise. And don't pretend it won't happen again - the 80s showed how ruthless industry is with jobs.