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Should We Leave the EU?

Do you believe the UK should stay in or leave the EU?

  • Stay in the EU

    Votes: 229 61.4%
  • Leave the EU

    Votes: 120 32.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 24 6.4%

  • Total voters
    373
Status
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TheKnightWho

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I'll try just one more time.......what point am I failing to answer?

You criticise me for repeating myself, then ask me to do it again :roll: Clearly this isn't very productive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm afraid I disagree, you can word it however you like but economic migrants are here for no other reason than to supress wages

You literally believe people come to Britain to drive down wages? I've heard some ridiculous theories before, but this takes the biscuit in terms of sheer ludicrousness.

Yes, migration can drive down wages, but that isn't why they come!
 
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tony_mac

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some ridiculous theories before, but this takes the biscuit in terms of sheer ludicrousness.

It's so ludicrous, that it obviously wasn't meant to be taken literally.
I think that the quality of the debate is low enough without some of the more lucid participants taking offence at what are fairly obvious misunderstandings.

However, the labour market is not very elastic to follow a simple supply-and-demand model, and to say that immigrants are driving down wages is a gross simplification.
It could also be argued that a supply of good, low-cost, labour increases business & national productivity. This increase then benefits everyone, which includes paying more taxes, raising the minimum wage, and even the low-productivity workers benefit.
 

Steveman

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Oh the irony of Cameron inviting Obama to gob off on behalf of Project Fear.
I wonder how it would go down with the "Land of the Free" if we sent a politician to the US to tell them how to vote in their forthcoming election.
Telling us to abandon our sovereignty is utterly two faced from a country that considers its own so important.

This lame duck president who has been a massive failure from day one has the cheek to come here and lecture us on behalf of Cameron, shameful but it does show Project Fear isn't having the desired effect.
Cameron would have wanted to be 20 points at least ahead at this point.
 
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Antman

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You criticise me for repeating myself, then ask me to do it again :roll: Clearly this isn't very productive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You literally believe people come to Britain to drive down wages? I've heard some ridiculous theories before, but this takes the biscuit in terms of sheer ludicrousness.

Yes, migration can drive down wages, but that isn't why they come!

Again you have failed to explain what question I haven't answered therefore I shall ignore any further postings from you, it's a waste of time trying to have any sort of rational dialogue:roll:
 

TheKnightWho

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Again you have failed to explain what question I haven't answered therefore I shall ignore any further postings from you, it's a waste of time trying to have any sort of rational dialogue:roll:

You could literally read my previous posts: you have one standard for immigration being good for Spain, and another for Britain. How do you reconcile this? I'm not irrational just because you haven't read what I wrote.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's so ludicrous, that it obviously wasn't meant to be taken literally.
I think that the quality of the debate is low enough without some of the more lucid participants taking offence at what are fairly obvious misunderstandings.

However, the labour market is not very elastic to follow a simple supply-and-demand model, and to say that immigrants are driving down wages is a gross simplification.
It could also be argued that a supply of good, low-cost, labour increases business & national productivity. This increase then benefits everyone, which includes paying more taxes, raising the minimum wage, and even the low-productivity workers benefit.

I agree with this. It would be naive to think that globalisation hasn't decreased wages in some sectors, however. The destruction in the 1980s of many communities are a testament to how we have to be careful when transitioning.
 
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Antman

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I didn't agree with everything that the late Bob Crow said but he was bang on about the EU and cheap labour driving down wages
 
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TheKnightWho

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You don't think the hundreds of thousands of Brits working in Spain aren't driving down wages either? They're certainly not all retirees by any means!

Plus, surely, you'd be absolutely fine with old people from around the world deciding to live in Britain too? After all - no matter how many there are of them, they're spending money!
 

miami

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A UKIP lady on Daily Politics was complaining that money from the EU is being spent on poor regions, and by leaving the EU we'd be able to spend it "in the way that we wanted"

Having seen how austerity has hit over the last few years - especially the last 2 years - perhaps the question for anyone bothered by life outside the M25 is do you trust Osborne with the fate of poor areas of the UK to give a better deal?
 

richa2002

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A UKIP lady on Daily Politics was complaining that money from the EU is being spent on poor regions, and by leaving the EU we'd be able to spend it "in the way that we wanted"

Having seen how austerity has hit over the last few years - especially the last 2 years - perhaps the question for anyone bothered by life outside the M25 is do you trust Osborne with the fate of poor areas of the UK to give a better deal?
The whole point though is that the British people directly elect our government so if they can't be trusted, we vote them out. The same can't be said for those who decide where EU subsidies go.
 

NSEFAN

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richa2002 said:
The whole point though is that the British people directly elect our government so if they can't be trusted, we vote them out. The same can't be said for those who decide where EU subsidies go.
Isn't that what MEPs are for?
 

miami

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The whole point though is that the British people directly elect our government so if they can't be trusted, we vote them out. The same can't be said for those who decide where EU subsidies go.

Seriously, did people sleep through the 2014 elections?
 

Antman

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The whole point though is that the British people directly elect our government so if they can't be trusted, we vote them out. The same can't be said for those who decide where EU subsidies go.

Well exactly, what ever anybody thinks of Osborne & Co they were democratically elected
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Presumably not the UKIP voters! (To be fair, they wouldn't be intelligent enough to understand the irony)

You show your own ignorance with that comment:roll:
 

miami

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Well exactly, what ever anybody thinks of Osborne & Co they were democratically elected

MPs in the houses of parliament were elected by getting a shade under 50% of the voters to vote for them -- 15,339,603 votes for an MP, 15,357,922 votes against.

Of those MPs, between them they selected a government from a party that got 34% of the votes and gave them all the power -- the only way the government can lose in the commons is by having their own party rebel.

By comparrision 92% of the country voted for the UKs MEPs, with 8% voting for a party that didn't get an MEP.

Now if someone more ofay with the workings of the EU could correct me, this is how I understand an EU directive is passed.

As national parties don't work in a wider context (even if the UK elected a single party it would be like SNP, we'd only have 12% of the votes in parliament), they form larger looser parties called "groups", more like what we had in the 1800s in the UK. UKIP are part of the "Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy" group for example, Labour are part of the "Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats" group. The largest group is the European People's Party, which none of our national parties are part of. They have 29% of the seats, so they need to agree to work together to pass directives.

Only when a majority of the MEPs that we elect vote in favour does a directive then apply (it also needs to be passed by a council appointed by the national governments, who themselves are elected. A bit like the house of lords, but with term limits)



No single party, or block of parties, controls the parliament, so any directives that are passed or rejected by the democratically elected parliament must pass with a consensus of many MEPs. Everyone in europe has a say, and without the ability to use party whips and threaten MEPs with deselection getting directives passed is a genuine moment of cooperation.
 

NY Yankee

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Oh the irony of Cameron inviting Obama to gob off on behalf of Project Fear.
I wonder how it would go down with the "Land of the Free" if we sent a politician to the US to tell them how to vote in their forthcoming election.
Telling us to abandon our sovereignty is utterly two faced from a country that considers its own so important.

This lame duck president who has been a massive failure from day one has the cheek to come here and lecture us on behalf of Cameron, shameful but it does show Project Fear isn't having the desired effect.
Cameron would have wanted to be 20 points at least ahead at this point.

I agree that the USA sucks and the UK is better, but that's not really Obama's fault. Whenever Obama has a goal or an idea, the GOP deliberately hinders him from accomplishing it. When the US suggested that the UK stay in the European Union, they were looking out for the best interests of the entire Europe, not just the UK.
 

crehld

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Does the Queen put the Rex into Brexit?

Someone needs to brush up on their Latin...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree that the USA sucks and the UK is better, but that's not really Obama's fault. Whenever Obama has a goal or an idea, the GOP deliberately hinders him from accomplishing it. When the US suggested that the UK stay in the European Union, they were looking out for the best interests of the entire Europe, not just the UK.

This maybe true, but don't assume the US government is so altruistic. The US is looking out for its own interests as much (or even more so) as others'. A successful EU matters to the US both economically and for its security (broadly defined). Indeed, the US has had a stake in the EU and been actively involved since the Treaty of Paris establishing the European Coal and Steel Community was signed in 1951
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think that the quality of the debate is low enough without some of the more lucid participants taking offence at what are fairly obvious misunderstandings.
One of the most sensible statements made yet. There is no good quality and informed debate in this country. Quite frankly most people don't know what they're on about, and are quite prepared to swallow drivel and misinformation as gospel truth. Anyone who tables hard cold facts or states potential risks is immediately chastised and discredited as a 'scaremongerer'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The whole point though is that the British people directly elect our government so if they can't be trusted, we vote them out. The same can't be said for those who decide where EU subsidies go.

This is incorrect. Firstly, decisions about these mythical "EU subsidies" (I assume you're talking about European Structural and Investment Funds?) are made through the Ordinary Legislative Procedure of the EU. This involves co-decision by two institutions of the EU: the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union. Members of the European Parliament are obviously directly elected by the citizens of EU member states. With these elections adopting proportional representation there is a far greater chance that the electorate is better represented in the European Parliament than it is in our own national parliament which of course adopts a majoritarian electoral system. Members of the Council of the European Union are ministers in the national governments of EU member states, who, of course, also derive electoral legitimacy from the citizens of those said member states. (There is a debate about the accountability of those ministers making decisions at the EU level, but this is a matter or national parliamentary scrutiny and largely depends on executive dominance at the national level (which in the UK is incredibly high) - both of these things of course have nothing to do with the EU).

So to say decisions in the EU are made by those who are unelected is plain wrong. If someone has suggested to you otherwise they are either grossly misinformed or maliciously misleading you.

Interestingly in the case of structural and investment funds, if you're dissatisfied by the allocation then you only have the UK government to blame. The EU has given a significant amount of cash to the UK to invest in local projects. Scotland has seen it, as has Wales and Northern Ireland; but when it comes to devolving the allocation of money to local areas in England, HM Treasury has done a rather good job of keeping hold of most of it, much to the EU's and local councils' dissatisfaction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having seen how austerity has hit over the last few years - especially the last 2 years - perhaps the question for anyone bothered by life outside the M25 is do you trust Osborne with the fate of poor areas of the UK to give a better deal?

This is a fair point but I would broaden it out. The leave camp says we would save X a year, and that if we left we could invest that money ourselves. Regional investment, agricultural subsidies, funds for cutting edge research and innovation would all be protected and, indeed, there would be more to go around. The problem is successive British governments of all political colours have favoured centralization and a reduction in the reach of the state (despite what some quarters of the press would have you believe). Austerity is the new game in town and our current government appears to be on unrelenting drive to cut budgets (while simultaneously cutting tax receipts) regardless of social impact.

Now if parliament were to legislate before the June referendum to make it a legal requirement that the current level of investment from the EU must continue if the country were to leave I might just be swayed by the argument ... but as it is I am unconvinced.
 

miami

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Interestingly in the case of structural and investment funds, if you're dissatisfied by the allocation then you only have the UK government to blame. The EU has given a significant amount of cash to the UK to invest in local projects. Scotland has seen it, as has Wales and Northern Ireland; but when it comes to devolving the allocation of money to local areas in England, HM Treasury has done a rather good job of keeping hold of most of it, much to the EU's and local councils' dissatisfaction.

Any citation for that?

Now if parliament were to legislate before the June referendum to make it a legal requirement that the current level of investment from the EU must continue if the country were to leave I might just be swayed by the argument ... but as it is I am unconvinced.

I wouldn't, as they could simply legislate the other way in September. Given that Labour can't be bothered to oppose any more (they also support the spying on british citizens act), I don't see them losing.
 

crehld

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This utter myth keeps being repeated.

Why my alleged myths be answered with yet more myths?

Who do you think kept the peace after 1945 seeing as the EU didn't exist, why were wars not starting all over Europe in the 10 years before the EU was formed.
The American Marshall Plan restored European economies and from 1949 to the present day it is NATO alone that keeps a check on the Russians.

This completely overlooks the role of the US is actively encouraging and fostering the development of the EU (what was then the European Coal and Steel Community). The US knew that NATO in and of itself was insufficient in tackling the threat posed by communism. It might have helped with a military conflict with the Soviet Union, but the US's security concerns were not solely confined to military threats, nor were they confined to Moscow. Remember that communism was a real political force in western Europe in the immediate aftermath of the second world war. The US's logic was that (free market based) economic and political integration would mitigate this and that a political union between the states of Europe would provide both an additional deterrence to the military ambitions of the Soviet Union, while offering a very overt statement of 'freedom' to the many central and eastern European states which found themselves annexed by the Soviet Union and whose political regimes were far from unstable. If you want to find out more about the US's involvement at the time and how the development of NATO and early European integration are inextricably linked I wholeheartedly recommend Desmond Dinan's book 'Europe Recast' (the first chapter is particularly relevant).

50 years of Basque problems - No EU intervention.

This is wrong.

Cyprus invasion by Turkey - No EU intervention.

This is wrong.

Northern Ireland - EU had no part in ending the troubles.

This is wrong. Have you heard of the PEACE programme? Indeed participation in this EU facilitated, funded and administered programme by the British and Irish governments was a condition of the Good Friday agreement.

2 Balkan conflicts and a Croatian war - ended by a NATO protection force.

Are you suggesting the EU had no role to play? That would be wrong. Yes NATO provided the military intervention (remember there is no EU army despite what some would have you think), but the EU has played significant roles in logistics and in providing institutional and administrative support in the immediate aftermath of the military conflict. If it were not for this support many of these states would still find themselves in a position of conflict.

Bosnian war and trouble in Albania - ended by NATO.

See above.

The first second and third Kosovo wars - ended by NATO.

See above.

Conflict in Macedonia - ended by NATO.

See above.

North Kosovo crisis - resolved by NATO.

Again, see above (I'm slightly confused why you have split this complex and large singular regional conflict into separate isolated ones - not to misrepresent the number of conflicts the EU has 'failed' to address I hope?)

It was EU diplomatic recklessness that started the Ukraine crisis, and the EU’s desire to spread influence, this EU imperialism has considerably strengthened the hand of fascists and communists in those countries.

In your examples above you cite NATO as the 'keeper of the peace'... did it ever occur to you that Russian aggression and involvement in the Ukraine and other states (e.g. Gerogia) might be a response to NATO's desire to spread its influence in to areas traditionally perceived as Russia's sphere of influence? You are attempting to analyse complete geo-political events, but are relying on oversimplifying everything. I sincerely hope you don't work for the Foreign Office!

Merkel has now stirred up the far right in Germany which will cause massive problems as it spreads across Europe. So not only has the EU spectacularly failed to keep the peace in Europe the German dominated organisation is fanning the flames of extremism all over the place which was largely predicted after Merkel invited anyone who fancied a better life to Europe.

Your statement that the EU is dominated by Germany is very dubious, but you do make a valid point about Merkel (and other European political leaders) miscalculating the political impact of the migration crisis. But here we also need to look at the causes of this. It is European (and indeed global) unwillingness to adequately engage with the Syrian conflict which has led to this situation.

Can you tell me how well EU police forces have done in preventing migrants entering Europe ?

There is no EU police force... it is the responsibility of national police and security forces to protect their own borders. Some of these police forces have decided to co-operate under the auspices of FRONTEX with the aid of EU funding to manage some of Europe's more complex borders, but operationally it's still up to the national level. The national governments of the EU have gone to great lengths to ensure the EU does not have independent, so if you are critical of the EU's failure to act the you need to take that up with the national government's in question, rather than blaming the EU.

Can you tell me how many European conflicts the EU has bought an end to ?

No, given the rationale behind the EU is not about ending conflicts but about preventing conflict between those who are its members. It's why I find your examples above slightly disingenuous (in addition to grossly oversimplified and inaccurate).

This myth that the EU somehow keeps the peace in Europe is laughable as not only does it fail to do so it actively makes things far worse than they need be.

I agree that the statement "the EU somehow keeps the peace in Europe" is a gross oversimplification, but, with respect, so is your response. For me it highlights the real problem with debate we have about the EU in this country (and perhaps political debate in general) informed debate fuelled by in depth analysis seems to be frowned upon. Instead we should trust the bluster of high profile statements which reduce the complexities of politics to simple and often false statements.

As regarding Germany effectively running the EU this quote from the pm of Iceland last week is spot on.

The Icelandic PM is speaking to domestic audience. But it is certainly true that some EU member states have more political clout than others. If the UK, as such an influential EU member state, has allowed a single state to dominate the decision making processes in the EU, then it is an abject failure of the British government to. And besides if Germany really ran the show why is it the UK government was able to have its renegotiation in the first place, the terms of which undermine Germany's national interest?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Any citation for that?

For the historical background to the UK's role in EU regional policy you might like to try the following:

- I. Bache (1998) The Politics of European Union Regional Policy
- J. Bachtler, C. Mendez and F. Wishlade (2013) Cohesion Policy and European Integration.

Both discuss the how British governments have consistently viewed receipts from EU structural and investment funds as contributions to the UK budget held by HM Treasury rather than being devolved to local level partners as is required for them to invest as they see fit according to local need. For a recent analyses of the centralization of EU structural and investment funds in England and its impact at the local level see:

- C. Huggins (2014) 'Local Enterprise Partnerships and the Development of European Structural and Investment Fund Strategies in England' in European Structural and Investment Funds Journal.
 
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Blamethrower

Member
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So how do the MEPs represent us then?

It's not a democratic election if no-one knows what the MEPs stand for. Just because we are voting doesn't mean that it's a democratic process if the responsibility/accountability of the MEP is obviously unclear. We go to polls, why? because we're sheeple and do whatever the government tells us to.

Does anyone here vote in the US elections? Surely any changes over there affects us more than the EU

Besides, wasn't Nick Griffin voted in as an MEP? Isn't Michael Farage an MEP?

Tells you all you need to know about the EU.

Also those talking about world influence, I think the City of London will do just fine without the EU.

The crux is, nobody knows. What I've learned on here is that there are people who will blindly follow and there are people who will debunk everything without offering an alternative. I have also learned that the EU means absolutely nothing to me as a UK citizen as I don't care about Team UK World Police, don't care about economic "ties", don't care about european politics and the politics of NATO and various countries attempts at world domination.

You can keep it, it's none of my business, all I want is all people making laws to be ultimately responsible for the laws and actions in the country where those laws apply.

Don't forget that FIFA is a democratically elected governing body aswell
 
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Steveman

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2016
Messages
404
Why my alleged myths be answered with yet more myths?



This completely overlooks the role of the US is actively encouraging and fostering the development of the EU (what was then the European Coal and Steel Community). The US knew that NATO in and of itself was insufficient in tackling the threat posed by communism. It might have helped with a military conflict with the Soviet Union, but the US's security concerns were not solely confined to military threats, nor were they confined to Moscow. Remember that communism was a real political force in western Europe in the immediate aftermath of the second world war. The US's logic was that (free market based) economic and political integration would mitigate this and that a political union between the states of Europe would provide both an additional deterrence to the military ambitions of the Soviet Union, while offering a very overt statement of 'freedom' to the many central and eastern European states which found themselves annexed by the Soviet Union and whose political regimes were far from unstable. If you want to find out more about the US's involvement at the time and how the development of NATO and early European integration are inextricably linked I wholeheartedly recommend Desmond Dinan's book 'Europe Recast' (the first chapter is particularly relevant).



This is wrong.



This is wrong.



This is wrong. Have you heard of the PEACE programme? Indeed participation in this EU facilitated, funded and administered programme by the British and Irish governments was a condition of the Good Friday agreement.



Are you suggesting the EU had no role to play? That would be wrong. Yes NATO provided the military intervention (remember there is no EU army despite what some would have you think), but the EU has played significant roles in logistics and in providing institutional and administrative support in the immediate aftermath of the military conflict. If it were not for this support many of these states would still find themselves in a position of conflict.



See above.



See above.



See above.



Again, see above (I'm slightly confused why you have split this complex and large singular regional conflict into separate isolated ones - not to misrepresent the number of conflicts the EU has 'failed' to address I hope?)



In your examples above you cite NATO as the 'keeper of the peace'... did it ever occur to you that Russian aggression and involvement in the Ukraine and other states (e.g. Gerogia) might be a response to NATO's desire to spread its influence in to areas traditionally perceived as Russia's sphere of influence? You are attempting to analyse complete geo-political events, but are relying on oversimplifying everything. I sincerely hope you don't work for the Foreign Office!



Your statement that the EU is dominated by Germany is very dubious, but you do make a valid point about Merkel (and other European political leaders) miscalculating the political impact of the migration crisis. But here we also need to look at the causes of this. It is European (and indeed global) unwillingness to adequately engage with the Syrian conflict which has led to this situation.



There is no EU police force... it is the responsibility of national police and security forces to protect their own borders. Some of these police forces have decided to co-operate under the auspices of FRONTEX with the aid of EU funding to manage some of Europe's more complex borders, but operationally it's still up to the national level. The national governments of the EU have gone to great lengths to ensure the EU does not have independent, so if you are critical of the EU's failure to act the you need to take that up with the national government's in question, rather than blaming the EU.



No, given the rationale behind the EU is not about ending conflicts but about preventing conflict between those who are its members. It's why I find your examples above slightly disingenuous (in addition to grossly oversimplified and inaccurate).



I agree that the statement "the EU somehow keeps the peace in Europe" is a gross oversimplification, but, with respect, so is your response. For me it highlights the real problem with debate we have about the EU in this country (and perhaps political debate in general) informed debate fuelled by in depth analysis seems to be frowned upon. Instead we should trust the bluster of high profile statements which reduce the complexities of politics to simple and often false statements.



The Icelandic PM is speaking to domestic audience. But it is certainly true that some EU member states have more political clout than others. If the UK, as such an influential EU member state, has allowed a single state to dominate the decision making processes in the EU, then it is an abject failure of the British government to. And besides if Germany really ran the show why is it the UK government was able to have its renegotiation in the first place, the terms of which undermine Germany's national interest?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


For the historical background to the UK's role in EU regional policy you might like to try the following:

- I. Bache (1998) The Politics of European Union Regional Policy
- J. Bachtler, C. Mendez and F. Wishlade (2013) Cohesion Policy and European Integration.

Both discuss the how British governments have consistently viewed receipts from EU structural and investment funds as contributions to the UK budget held by HM Treasury rather than being devolved to local level partners as is required for them to invest as they see fit according to local need. For a recent analyses of the centralization of EU structural and investment funds in England and its impact at the local level see:

- C. Huggins (2014) 'Local Enterprise Partnerships and the Development of European Structural and Investment Fund Strategies in England' in European Structural and Investment Funds Journal.

I never said there was an EU Police force I said EU Police forces which means the individual ones in each country which of course you knew.

To even suggest that NATO only played a small part in the ending of various conflicts and it was in fact largely due to the EU because of it's administrative excellence and logistics is even for you ridiculous.
Military might ends wars not very good paperwork.

In the old Yugoslavia it was continued EU interference that helped start the major civil war and the EU's dithering contributed to the deaths of 100,000 people. It was only decisive action by the US/NATO forces that stopped the violence. Peace was established by the US-brokered Dayton Agreement.It wasn't solved by EU clerks and their legendary paperwork skills.
In your quest to denigrate NATO and big up the EU you have failed as you haven't provided any evidence at all to back up your claim that NATO is largely insignificant and the EU's wonderfully efficient administration is the reason wars aren't breaking out all over Europe.

NATO IS the United States and you could remove all the other countries and it would still be largely intact. It is only the UK and the Czech republic that contribute anything meaningful all the other countries hang on the coat tails of the US.
You admit NATO military intervention ended these wars then go on to say if it wasn't for the excellent administration and logistics of the EU the wars would still be going on.
You have to stop them first and it doesn't matter how much you try and say otherwise it's military intervention that is needed and without NATO You don't have an answer.
The EU has never ever stopped a war in progress but it has certainly helped to start one.
The dramatic and sudden rise of the far right all over Europe is totally the fault of the German dominated EU mainly by its absolutely disastrous plan to invite every migrant that fancied it to come to Europe.
 
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miami

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3,305
So how do the MEPs represent us then?

It's not a democratic election if no-one knows what the MEPs stand for. Just because we are voting doesn't mean that it's a democratic process if the responsibility/accountability of the MEP is obviously unclear. We go to polls, why? because we're sheeple and do whatever the government tells us to.

Just because you're ignorant doesn't make it non-democratic. Your MEPs tend to respresent the same values that their parties do, so Labour tend to be more "left", Tory more "right".

I agree that the media has a lot to blame over the myths about europe, and as the Evening Standard tells us there's a reason for that.

Murdoch replied, “when I go into Downing Street, they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”

Does anyone here vote in the US elections? Surely any changes over there affects us more than the EU

The line that Brexiters take is that Europe meddles all the time in the UK. Which is it?

Besides, wasn't Nick Griffin voted in as an MEP? Isn't Michael Farage an MEP?

Tells you all you need to know about the EU.

25% of the UK voters voted for UKIP, are you suggesting they shouldn't be represented? It's a classic FPTP argument, one I disagree with.

The crux of the matter is you think that because George Galloway and Gerry Adams were MPs, Westminster is a farce.

Also those talking about world influence, I think the City of London will do just fine without the EU.

Which big city firm do you run?

The crux is, nobody knows.

We have a good idea about what will happen if we stay in the EU. I agree nobody has a clue what will happen on a leave vote. Do you like uncertainty?


You can keep it, it's none of my business, all I want is all people making laws to be ultimately responsible for the laws and actions in the country where those laws apply.

Westminster, controled by a political party with near zero support in scotland, makes laws that affect Scotland.

Westminster, controled by a political party with near zero support in cities, makes laws that affect cities.

Why should I care where the law comes from, either a government representing 34% of the voting public, or a government representing at least 50% of the voting public AND having had the law approved by the national governments that make up 66% of the voting public.

The EU is far more democratic than Westminster.

Don't forget that FIFA is a democratically elected governing body aswell

Do football fans vote for FIFA presidents? Do the players? Is is a free and secret vote?
 

TheKnightWho

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So how do the MEPs represent us then?

It's not a democratic election if no-one knows what the MEPs stand for. Just because we are voting doesn't mean that it's a democratic process if the responsibility/accountability of the MEP is obviously unclear. We go to polls, why? because we're sheeple and do whatever the government tells us to.

That would be the fault of the press, and not of the EU itself. That same press who, for a large part, want us to leave...
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To even suggest that NATO only played a small part in the ending of various conflicts and it was in fact largely due to the EU because of it's administrative excellence and logistics is even for you ridiculous.
Military might ends wars not very good paperwork.

No-one claims this. NATO and the EU are two very different organisations with different purposes that complement each other. You're assuming that if you recognise the EU has done anything that diminishes the role of NATO, which fundamentally shows a misunderstanding of both.
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NATO IS the United States and you could remove all the other countries and it would still be largely intact. It is only the UK and the Czech republic that contribute anything meaningful all the other countries hang on the coat tails of the US.

This is jingoism. The UK does not maintain its 2% spending pledge, and the French navy currently outclasses our own.

You've also failed to account at all for the EU stopping conflicts emerging due to cooperation. NATO has prevented crises between nations, but the EU stops them in the first place. (And before you bring up the Syrian Refugee Crisis or any other event with the word "crisis" in its name, you know as well as I do that those kind of events would have happened with or without the EU!)
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The dramatic and sudden rise of the far right all over Europe is totally the fault of the German dominated EU mainly by its absolutely disastrous plan to invite every migrant that fancied it to come to Europe.

The dramatic and sudden rise of the far right is down to the nationalistic press and latent conservative tendencies in much of the population. This usually happens in economic downturns. To blame it on Germany is, rather fittingly, betraying a rather nationalistic tendency in your own view...

Plus blaming something on those who did not instigate violence in the first place is absurd. You blame the EU for Russian aggression, when it would surely make more sense to blame Russia for Russian aggression. You blame the EU for the rise of the far right, when it would make far more sense to blame the far right for its own rise. People have agency - Russians and rightists alike - they aren't a natural disaster which can't be culpable for its own actions.
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The crux is, nobody knows. What I've learned on here is that there are people who will blindly follow and there are people who will debunk everything without offering an alternative. I have also learned that the EU means absolutely nothing to me as a UK citizen as I don't care about Team UK World Police, don't care about economic "ties", don't care about european politics and the politics of NATO and various countries attempts at world domination.

You can keep it, it's none of my business, all I want is all people making laws to be ultimately responsible for the laws and actions in the country where those laws apply.

They are your business when the cost of everything you want to buy skyrockets, and your wages plummet. Just because you don't see an immediate benefit does not mean that they aren't in your interest.

MEPs are very much beholden to you - the blame lies with the press who refuse to engage with European politics.
 
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NSEFAN

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TheKnightWho said:
That would be the fault of the press, and not of the EU itself. That same press who, for a large part, want us to leave...
Quite. It's said that Murdoch chooses the next prime minister, after all. I'd say voting for a MEP is no less democratic than a MP. A democracy cannot be democratic if the population aren't informed, but in this day and age there should be some expectation for people to be able to inform themselves instead of waiting for a newspaper to spoon feed them an opinion.
 
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NY Yankee

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This completely overlooks the role of the US is actively encouraging and fostering the development of the EU (what was then the European Coal and Steel Community). The US knew that NATO in and of itself was insufficient in tackling the threat posed by communism. It might have helped with a military conflict with the Soviet Union, but the US's security concerns were not solely confined to military threats, nor were they confined to Moscow. Remember that communism was a real political force in western Europe in the immediate aftermath of the second world war. The US's logic was that (free market based) economic and political integration would mitigate this and that a political union between the states of Europe would provide both an additional deterrence to the military ambitions of the Soviet Union, while offering a very overt statement of 'freedom' to the many central and eastern European states which found themselves annexed by the Soviet Union and whose political regimes were far from unstable. If you want to find out more about the US's involvement at the time and how the development of NATO and early European integration are inextricably linked I wholeheartedly recommend Desmond Dinan's book 'Europe Recast' (the first chapter is particularly relevant).

After the second World War, the US enacted the Marshall Plan which facilitated the recovery of the European countries that were devastated by the war. The Soviet Union prevented the Eastern Bloc nations from receiving the benefits of the plan. At that point, a chasm formed between the Aliied Powers and Axis Nations. Germany was essentially the dividing line. Obviously, the western European nations were more affluent than the Eastern Bloc nations. There were people who were shot trying to cross from East to West Berlin.

The Soviet Union was never a real threat to the security of Europe. While the Soviet Union built these intricate weapons systems, people in the country were starving and rebelling. They spent so much money on weaponry that they literally went broke. Even if the US wasn't involved, the Soviet Union wouldn't have posed a threat to the rest of Europe. There were simply too many citizens who would've supported a free market economy.
 

Busaholic

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Someone needs to brush up on their Latin...

Breginait wasn't available, but rex can be used in the same way as man to indicate either gender (or, as we're supposed to say nowadays, all genders).:)
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Breginait wasn't available, but rex can be used in the same way as man to indicate either gender (or, as we're supposed to say nowadays, all genders).:)

The word "regina" does though seem to give an air of a female monarch. In 1877, the title bestowed upon Queen Victoria was that of Empress of India.

A good example of "rex" used in its Latin context can be found in Daniel 3:98 in Biblia Sacra Vulgata....
"Nabuchodonosor rex omnibus populis gentribus et linguis quae habitant in universa terra pax vobis multiplicetur"
 
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