Should We Leave the EU?

[Tetchytyke]

It must be a great disappointment to you that Boris Johnson actually made no such 'suggestion'

Ah yes, it was a "cockup" of course :roll:

 

[47802]

As Scotland has a majority wanting IN then that place could stop England getting an OUT vote.
As Scotland has continually said an OUT vote would trigger a referendum on that basis an IN vote would trigger a massive call by English people for a referendum on independence from Scotland.

Independence from Scotland would be a massive win on all fronts for England.

Your making big assumptions there that Scotland will vote in and England will vote out, lets see what actually happens.

Should we get to a situation of the UK voting out and then Scotland becoming independent within the EU then I'm not so sure it will be a massive win for England, indeed instead as suggested in the last referendum that Scottish based companies might relocate to rUK, it could be the other way around in that situation.

 

[Steveman]

Your making big assumptions there that Scotland will vote in and England will vote out, lets see what actually happens.

The Scotsman has a poll showing 62% of Scots want IN.

England contributes five/sixths of the electorate and if England votes OUT and the smaller countries vote IN by enough to swing it to an IN vote it will trigger a constitutional nightmare and be largely seen as illegitimate.

 

[me123]

I don't see why. After all, as many English politicians (including many prominent leave campaigners) told us, we are Better Together.

 

[Groningen]

So the finnish parlement will have to speak about leaving the EU-zone after 53.000 people signed a petition.

 

[crehld]

So the finnish parlement will have to speak about leaving the EU-zone after 53.000 people signed a petition.

Does a this operate under the same rules as petitions to the UK parliament? That it there is a discussion and a discussion only and then the matter is quietly forgotten about.

 

[miami]

So the finnish parlement will have to speak about leaving the EU-zone after 53.000 people signed a petition.

As a percentage of the country that would like 600,000 in the UK, so similar to the "Stop all immigration and close the UK borders until ISIS is defeated." petition.

 

[Busaholic]

The Scotsman has a poll showing 62% of Scots want IN.

England contributes five/sixths of the electorate and if England votes OUT and the smaller countries vote IN by enough to swing it to an IN vote it will trigger a constitutional nightmare and be largely seen as illegitimate.

But the vote is not 'weighted' according to the voter's locality. If the people resident in England vote by a significant majority to Brexit then it wouldn't matter if the entire population of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland voted Remain, the Noes would prevail and Boris Johnson would be one stage nearer his stated boyhood ambition of being king of the world.

 

[Jonny]

But the vote is not 'weighted' according to the voter's locality. If the people resident in England vote by a significant majority to Brexit then it wouldn't matter if the entire population of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland voted Remain, the Noes would prevail and Boris Johnson would be one stage nearer his stated boyhood ambition of being king of the world.

For that to happen there would need to be enough of a no (i.e. exit) vote win in England to outweigh the votes of the rest of the UK. It is mathematically possible but from a practical view it would be a miracle!

PS I've heard that Boris will settle for being the clown prince

 

[miami]

Boris should have kept his US citizenship, he could have run for US president, I suspect he's do quite well over there.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Not in the slightest.

Pensioners laying in the sun are effectively permanent holidaymakers. Even now, if something serious happens to them healthwise they jump on the first plane to the UK for the NHS.

If Spain wishes to give up that revenue by expelling them, more fool Spain, but I calculate it would result in a further boost to the UK balance of payments of around £10bn.

You can't get permanent tourist visas. They'd come under similar regulations to any non-EU national would in the UK now, which would most definitely mean most of them would get kicked out.
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I don't see why. After all, as many English politicians (including many prominent leave campaigners) told us, we are Better Together.

At least Steveman is being consistent. It's the ones who use the very same logic (Overinflated bureaucracy! Sovereignty! No need for compromises that hurt us!) with the UK who laughed at the Scots saying the same thing 2 years ago that are the real slimeballs.

Yes, the situations are not identical, but without actual numbers and proper data explaining (which the Out campaign have consistently failed to provide), it's no better than a leap into the dark based on nationalism - something that explains their sudden about-turn when it comes to the UK "becoming independent" rather than Scotland gaining independence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the vote is not 'weighted' according to the voter's locality. If the people resident in England vote by a significant majority to Brexit then it wouldn't matter if the entire population of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland voted Remain, the Noes would prevail and Boris Johnson would be one stage nearer his stated boyhood ambition of being king of the world.

It's possible that Scotland, NI and Wales could tip the UK in, even if England has a narrow majority Out.

However, it's not a very likely situation. It would prove a real headache for those who campaigned for Better Together as well as for the Out campaign (who make up the vast majority of Outers), though.

 

[furnessvale]

You can't get permanent tourist visas. They'd come under similar regulations to any non-EU national would in the UK now, which would most definitely mean most of them would get kicked out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They may not be called "tourist visas" but I am sure Spain for one would find a way to allow people to stay who are doing nothing but spending money.

If they don't, and throw them out, the UK benefits by £billions.

Sounds like a win either way.

 

[yorksrob]

I can see that this issue is inevitably a difficult one with lots of unknowns.

I'm not even decided myself. As an English Brit, I can honestly say that I would happily embrace the decision of the country, even if the non-English parts of the country were to tip the balance away from the majority view of England.

The only way I would be annoyed would be if the devolved nations swung the vote for the whole Uk then sodded off to independence anyway.

 

[danielnez1]

The only way I would be annoyed would be if the devolved nations swung the vote for the whole Uk then sodded off to independence anyway.

The irony there would be that immediate EU membership would be less than certain

 

[47802]

I can see that this issue is inevitably a difficult one with lots of unknowns.

I'm not even decided myself. As an English Brit, I can honestly say that I would happily embrace the decision of the country, even if the non-English parts of the country were to tip the balance away from the majority view of England.

The only way I would be annoyed would be if the devolved nations swung the vote for the whole Uk then sodded off to independence anyway.

Personally I'm not bothered if the devolved nations swing either way it as we are the UK after all at present, unfortunately the nationalists wont see it that way if it does pan out that way.

Personally I have always thought SNP position slightly odd in wanting independence from the UK but wanting to be part of the EU but that's another debate.

So far I have seen nothing from the exit camp to make me want to vote to leave, just a level of uncertainty, while the campaign on either side seems to be being run by the conservatives while the other parties seem to have become invisible.

 

[radamfi]

Personally I have always thought SNP position slightly odd in wanting independence from the UK but wanting to be part of the EU but that's another debate.

Because they realise that being a member of the EU doesn't stop you being a country in your own right.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I'm not bothered if the devolved nations swing either way it as we are the UK after all at present, unfortunately the nationalists wont see it that way if it does pan out that way.

Personally I have always thought SNP position slightly odd in wanting independence from the UK but wanting to be part of the EU but that's another debate.

So far I have seen nothing from the exit camp to make me want to vote to leave, just a level of uncertainty, while the campaign on either side seems to be being run by the conservatives while the other parties seem to have become invisible.

The only certainty is that the Nationalists will pursue a nationalist agenda, regardless of the referendum result.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

They may not be called "tourist visas" but I am sure Spain for one would find a way to allow people to stay who are doing nothing but spending money.

If they don't, and throw them out, the UK benefits by £billions.

Sounds like a win either way.

A win either way? You're saying that if lots of British people who have been living in Spain for years suddenly get forcibly uprooted, and thrown out of their homes, and subsequently prevented from living in the place where their homes are, you'll regard that as a win? Would you like it you were suddenly thrown out of your home and from the town that you've lived in for years, purely on the basis of some political decision made far away?

I'm afraid I find your apparent lack of concern for the welfare of others in that regard rather sad and astonishing

 

[TheKnightWho]

A win either way? You're saying that if lots of British people who have been living in Spain for years suddenly get forcibly uprooted, and thrown out of their homes, and subsequently prevented from living in the place where their homes are, you'll regard that as a win? Would you like it you were suddenly thrown out of your home and from the town that you've lived in for years, purely on the basis of some political decision made far away?

I'm afraid I find your apparent lack of concern for the welfare of others in that regard rather sad and astonishing

Yeah, this seems to be a case of trying to have his cake and eating it. If it's a win either way if they move or not, it means that it's a win right now since they aren't moving... In other words, it's a completely meaningless statement! The UK doesn't benefit by billions either, because we'd have to house a million Brits currently living in Spain.

I do love how the logic is that British immigrants in other countries must obviously be of economic benefit because they're apparently all retired (this is simply false), but of course immigrants to Britain are a cultural and economic burden etc. Double standards all round, it seems.

 

[Antman]

Yeah, this seems to be a case of trying to have his cake and eating it. If it's a win either way if they move or not, it means that it's a win right now since they aren't moving... In other words, it's a completely meaningless statement! The UK doesn't benefit by billions either, because we'd have to house a million Brits currently living in Spain.

I do love how the logic is that British immigrants in other countries must obviously be of economic benefit because they're apparently all retired (this is simply false), but of course immigrants to Britain are a cultural and economic burden etc. Double standards all round, it seems.

The simple point being made is that Spain could evict the Brits living there should they wish to do so, but obviously they won't because these Brits are spending large sums of money there!

Simple as that:roll:

 

[miami]

I know many Brits living in Greece. My parents did so for over a decade. Unknown for them to visit the U.K. For the bags, it's normally te local hospital - free of course thank to EHIC.

Most of them working in some fashion or another, running businesses to do with the boats, or just in bars and shops.

But screw them, as long as we can......


We can what?

 

[TheKnightWho]

The simple point being made is that Spain could evict the Brits living there should they wish to do so, but obviously they won't because these Brits are spending large sums of money there!

Simple as that:roll:

Ah yes, British immigrants to Spain obviously cause no problems whatsoever

The cultural point being entirely missed, along with the point about not all Brits in Spain being retirees with pots of money to spend (far from it).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The cultural point being entirely missed, along with the point about not all Brits in Spain being retirees with pots of money to spend (far from it).

One must never forget that Spain also seems to hold an attraction for British criminals loaded with their ill-gotten gains...

 

[Antman]

One must never forget that Spain also seems to hold an attraction for British criminals loaded with their ill-gotten gains...

But they generally live as law abiding citizens in Spain

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But they generally live as law abiding citizens in Spain

Oh really? Do not past habits die hard? Can they not pass on some of their "expertise" onto some of the local criminal fraternity there?

However, I do not have the same information to hand as you appear to have in respect of that matter, though I do note the term "generally" that you used in your posting.

 

[Antman]

Oh really? Do not past habits die hard? Can they not pass on some of their "expertise" onto some of the local criminal fraternity there?

However, I do not have the same information to hand as you appear to have in respect of that matter, though I do note the term "generally" that you used in your posting.

Well if they don't the Spanish can deport them

 

[furnessvale]

I'm afraid I find your apparent lack of concern for the welfare of others in that regard rather sad and astonishing

Sorry if my decision to vote out is based on the welfare of people who have chosen to remain within this country, rather than emigrate to sunnier climes with their pensions, but there it is.

I am sad and astonished that you put the welfare of such people before the needs of the people within the UK

 

[TheKnightWho]

Sorry if my decision to vote out is based on the welfare of people who have chosen to remain within this country, rather than emigrate to sunnier climes with their pensions, but there it is.

I am sad and astonished that you put the welfare of such people before the needs of the people within the UK

So your British citizenship counts for less if you live abroad then? I didn't see anyone advocating putting them before anyone in the UK either!

I have to say I'm glad that yours is not the prevailing attitude, because it really does limit what one "should" be allowed to do!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well over 700 postings on this thread now, all made from the personal viewpoint of the person making the posting, but such is the question being asked, there will be another 700 postings of the same type, but as far as I am concerned, I know where I stand on the subject matter and no attempt at evangelisation will cause me to sway from that position.

 

[Busaholic]

But they generally live as law abiding citizens in Spain

When they're not involved in timeshare and property fraud, of course. See recent press publicity around the death last summer of John 'Goldfinger' Palmer whose murder may well, apparently, have been connected to events in Hatton Garden a few weeks earlier.