Should We Leave the EU?

[yorksrob]

He is, but he wasn't the one raising the issue. If you think that all of the G20 finance ministers are financially inept, then I'm not going to stop you from thinking that, but the odds would be rather slim!

The Whitehouse has been making a lot of noises concerning the future of this country with regard to the European Union , which is strange for a country founded on a principle of democratic independence.

Yet the Whitehouse was also notably silent on the potential break-up of the United Kingdom during the Scottish independence referendum.

I'm afraid that I have little faith in the Whitehouse's judgement on such issues.

 

[me123]

Yet the Whitehouse was also notably silent on the potential break-up of the United Kingdom during the Scottish independence referendum.

No they weren't.

President Barack Obama made an 11th-hour appeal for Scots to vote no, saying he hopes Britain "remains strong, robust and united".

The US actually weighed in quite a few times, and was far from "silent" on the issue.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm afraid that I have little faith in the Whitehouse's judgement on such issues.

I thought that she died in 2001...:roll:

 

[yorksrob]

No they weren't.



The US actually weighed in quite a few times, and was far from "silent" on the issue.

I stand corrected.

I'm more inclined to listen to the Whitehouse on the issue in that case.
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He is, but he wasn't the one raising the issue. If you think that all of the G20 finance ministers are financially inept, then I'm not going to stop you from thinking that, but the odds would be rather slim!

As for "senior Chinese officials", they need to be doing something about North Korea rather than worrying about us. Why are we expected to take notice of China's opinion, if they can't even manage their own back yard.

 

[Butts]

I thought that she died in 2001...:roll:

I thought he was referring to a publication that featured one Mary Millington and was to be found (so I'm told) in disreputable newsagents in the seventies and eighties

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I stand corrected.

I'm more inclined to listen to the Whitehouse on the issue in that case.
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As for "senior Chinese officials", they need to be doing something about North Korea rather than worrying about us. Why are we expected to take notice of China's opinion, if they can't even manage their own back yard.

Because if we're not willing to at least listen to their opinions about the EU, then how can we expect them to listen to our opinion about North Korea?

Of course that's not to say the Chinese Government's opinion is correct, merely that it's worth listening to, and I can think of a couple of reasons for listening to them on this issue:

1. Firstly, China's position as a trading partner far removed politically from the EU means they are more likely to be able to view the situation dispassionately and analytically (although we should also be alert to the possibility that they are looking at their own interests rather than the EU's).
2. And secondly, however distasteful we might find China's human rights record, on economic issues they do appear to have a very well proven ability to raise living standards and grow the economy, which suggests to me that they might possibly understand economics rather better than the UK Government does.

 

[yorksrob]

Because if we're not willing to at least listen to their opinions about the EU, then how can we expect them to listen to our opinion about North Korea?

Of course that's not to say the Chinese Government's opinion is correct, merely that it's worth listening to, and I can think of a couple of reasons for listening to them on this issue:

1. Firstly, China's position as a trading partner far removed politically from the EU means they are more likely to be able to view the situation dispassionately and analytically (although we should also be alert to the possibility that they are looking at their own interests rather than the EU's).
2. And secondly, however distasteful we might find China's human rights record, on economic issues they do appear to have a very well proven ability to raise living standards and grow the economy, which suggests to me that they might possibly understand economics rather better than the UK Government does.

It was China's intervention that brought the state of North Korea into being and they've supported it ever since, yet they appear incapable of providing a restraining influence on it.

As for increasing living standards, yes to an extent, but they seem to be finding the transition from an export led economy to one based on domestic demand trickier.

 

[Oswyntail]

....ability to raise living standards and grow the economy, which suggests to me that they might possibly understand economics rather better than the UK Government does.
[/LIST]

Anyone can understand economics, but what rarely gets talked about is the difference between cultures and its effect on economics. I doubt that even the most brilliant Chinese economist could make a silk purse out of the indigenous British workforce:cry:

It was China's intervention that brought the state of North Korea into being and they've supported it ever since, yet they appear incapable of providing a restraining influence on it. ....

Perhaps they like it the way it is. Having a neighbour with an uncontrolled rabid dog makes your angry pitbull look like a kitten

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps they like it the way it is. Having a neighbour with an uncontrolled rabid dog makes your angry pitbull look like a kitten

I think they're getting jittery. There have been a few diplomatic snubs from them of late, but all too little too late.

 

[Steveman]

This forum is predominately educated and young so that is probably why it is more pro-EU than others. The white, older working class are the most anti-EU, which is why UKIP support is strongest in places like the coastal areas of Kent and Essex.

Can you provide irrefutable evidence that railway enthusiasts are more educated than the rest of the population to back up your claim.

Then when you've done that can you tell me why you're saying if you're voting to leave you're uneducated.

 

[radamfi]

Can you provide irrefutable evidence that railway enthusiasts are more educated than the rest of the population to back up your claim.

Then when you've done that can you tell me why you're saying if you're voting to leave you're uneducated.

I wasn't talking about railway enthusiasts. I was talking about people who post on this forum.

Also, I didn't say voting to leave directly implies you are poorly educated. I was saying that more educated people are *more likely* to be pro-EU.

 

[NY Yankee]

No, however, I don't think we should see population growth as an end in itself or a solution to our economic challenges.

I do think that at some stage, the world population is going to have to stop churning out ever increasing numbers of people. Organised religion might not like it but there we are.
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Of course, experience in Japan and much of western Europe suggests that it isn't inevitable that humanity should procreate into oblivion. We are, perhaps, self-regulating afterall. But it says everything about the failure of our economic system that this manifests itself as a crisis, rather than a step forward.

The problem is that the Earth has a limited amount of resources that can support a finite amount of people and animals. The Earth cannot keep up with the demands of the growing population. I cringe when I hear about the amount of oil being produced in the Middle East since I realise that the oil wells will eventually dry up. The best thing to do is to use the resources we have more efficiently. For example, in the United States, so much fresh food is wasted. They even have these asinine competitive eating contests. Meanwhile, there are people starving in Haiti and Africa.

People should only have kids if they can support them financially and emotionally. Problems occur when they have kids and they're unable to support them. Then, the government has to pay to take care of the kids. I'm not saying to have a quota on the amount of kids that a family has, like in China, but people need to make smart choices.

 

[Steveman]

I wasn't talking about railway enthusiasts. I was talking about people who post on this forum.

Also, I didn't say voting to leave directly implies you are poorly educated. I was saying that more educated people are *more likely* to be pro-EU.

I would have thought 99% of posters on here are railway enthusiasts and wouldn't expect them to be any cleverer than anybody else.

You might not have directly implied anything but by saying this forum would mainly vote to stay In the EU because posters are younger and more educated does imply that voting Out is the preserve of dimwits.

 

[radamfi]

I would have thought 99% of posters on here are railway enthusiasts and wouldn't expect them to be any cleverer than anybody else.

You might not have directly implied anything but by saying this forum would mainly vote to stay in the EU because posters are younger and more educated does imply that voting Out is the preserve of dimwits.

You misunderstand, again. Not all railway enthusiasts are on this forum, and not all of them post. There are probably some railway enthusiasts who aren't even on the internet.

Here is evidence that shows that the young and more educated are more pro-EU

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35641496

Looking at the graph labelled "Attitudes to Britain's EU membership, by highest educational qualification", it appears that about 78% of those with a degree want to remain in the EU and about 15% of those with a degree want to leave.

 

[222ben]

I firmly beleive we should stay in

 

[Busaholic]

Can you provide irrefutable evidence that railway enthusiasts are more educated than the rest of the population to back up your claim.

Then when you've done that can you tell me why you're saying if you're voting to leave you're uneducated.

I heard Donald Trump saying he loved the less educated - I bet he does, they're his best hope! Nigel Farage is too savvy to come out with such a statement, publically at least, but it doesn't mean he doesn't think it too.

 

[overthewater]

I have been asking around, and I cant find any people that want to stay in the EU, up here in sunny Scotland. I wonder if the SNP are just lying to get another chance for that dam second Scottish ref.

 

[radamfi]

I have been asking around, and I cant find any people that want to stay in the EU, up here in sunny Scotland. I wonder if the SNP are just lying to get another chance for that dam second Scottish ref.

Have you been asking young, educated people?

Scotland is supposed to be more pro-EU than England.

 

[bnm]

I have been asking around, and I cant find any people that want to stay in the EU, up here in sunny Scotland. I wonder if the SNP are just lying to get another chance for that dam second Scottish ref.

Latest polls show around 60% of Scots wish to remain. You're asking the wrong people.

 

[overthewater]

HA HA HA cheeky you lot are.

I think people will get a nasty shock how close this vote will actually be, it wont be clear cut up north. If people bothered to look instead of looking at whats being spoon feed, alot of other people are not EU happy.

I wouldn't mind staying in the EU: but no there don't care, there wont care and will not making any improvements, which is kind of sad.

 

[LateThanNever]

Think we should be careful what we wish for.
If Britain leaving the EU were to trigger the collapse of the EU that wouldn't do much for European stability. Hungary and France are already talking about referendums to leave. In the end the least worst option is to stay.

 

[furnessvale]

Think we should be careful what we wish for.
If Britain leaving the EU were to trigger the collapse of the EU that wouldn't do much for European stability. Hungary and France are already talking about referendums to leave. In the end the least worst option is to stay.

If the Titanic IS going to sink, I would rather the UK be in one of the first lifeboats to get away than be trapped on the ship with all the lifeboats gone.

 

[Oswyntail]

.. You're asking the wrong people.

There we have it! Most people tend to stay within their social comfort zone, and so tend to hear comfortable, familiar opinions, which confirm their own beliefs. I am very impressed with this board, where the views range from raging nutter to raging nutter with everything in between

 

[NSEFAN]

The problem is that the Earth has a limited amount of resources that can support a finite amount of people and animals. The Earth cannot keep up with the demands of the growing population. I cringe when I hear about the amount of oil being produced in the Middle East since I realise that the oil wells will eventually dry up. The best thing to do is to use the resources we have more efficiently. For example, in the United States, so much fresh food is wasted. They even have these asinine competitive eating contests. Meanwhile, there are people starving in Haiti and Africa.

People should only have kids if they can support them financially and emotionally. Problems occur when they have kids and they're unable to support them. Then, the government has to pay to take care of the kids. I'm not saying to have a quota on the amount of kids that a family has, like in China, but people need to make smart choices.

The population will always rise until resources are stretched. This is how nature does it and how we conduct ourselves as a species by means of free market forces. We also have the advantage over other animals that we have technological developments to sustain more people on the same amount of resources, and also give people a generally better quality of life in the process.

The smart thing to do might be to instead learn to globally manage our resources to avoid the endless bickering over oil, and to ensure everyone on the planet has equal access to said resources. It's probably a bit too communist for us, given how extreme our political and cultural differences can be.

In the mean time, a good way to ensure peace is economic dependence. War is generally about fighting for resources, so if you make it economic suicide to go to war then you can be fairly sure that there will be peace. This is something I think the EU/EEC has built up over time. In the current climate I can't see it being at all sane going to war with France or Germany or any other European country. I think that leaving the EU would be a way of demonstrating that we no longer want that economic interdependence, which paves the way for a return to nationalism and a return to bickering over resources. It hardly seems a mature way for us to conduct ourselves.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I doubt that even the most brilliant Chinese economist could make a silk purse out of the indigenous British workforce:cry:

Oh I'm sure they could improve productivity dramatically if we had Chinese labour laws. Being a brutal and abusive dictatorship definitely helps Get Things Done.

You might not have directly implied anything but by saying this forum would mainly vote to stay In the EU because posters are younger and more educated does imply that voting Out is the preserve of dimwits.

You've chosen to interpret it that way. The fact is that people in favour of the EU tend to be younger and have reached a higher level of educational attainment. People against the EU tend to be older and have a lower level of educational attainment.

I'd say this was about socio-economics more than who's more "intelligent". People with degrees tend to be working in sectors that flourish with EU co-operation. People without degrees tend to be working in sectors that disproportionately suffer from wage deflation caused by migration.

 

[Mvann]

Yes but what we want is the EEC, which after all is what we voted to join, and not a United States of Europe, which is what is becoming.

 

[deltic]

Yes but what we want is the EEC, which after all is what we voted to join, and not a United States of Europe, which is what is becoming.

But the EEC requires common rules and standards to make it work most efficiently including ideally free movement of goods, services and peoples and a single currency, tax and benefits system. So it is as easy to sell your products in Warsaw as in London, to get a job in Prague as in Edinburgh and to prevent tax havens such as Luxembourg. We have still a long way to go to reach those common rules and standards.

 

[Mvann]

And can you see France, Germany etc harmonising there tax and benefit systems?

 

[miami]

Yes but what we want is the EEC, which after all is what we voted to join, and not a United States of Europe, which is what is becoming.

Yes, those people who want to build a kind of United States of Europe are traitors and should be evicted from the country at once!
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Oh I'm sure they could improve productivity dramatically if we had Chinese labour laws. Being a brutal and abusive dictatorship definitely helps Get Things Done.

GDP per person in the UK is about 3 times that of China.

 

[Steveman]

Yes, those people who want to build a kind of United States of Europe are traitors and should be evicted from the country at once!

I take it you're in favour of the end of the individual nation states in Europe then which obviously is the eventual aim of Brussels.

One government, one fiscal system, one army, one welfare system, one police force, one currency, may sound heaven to you and may eventually happen, hope I'm well dead before then.