Regarding talks of us quickly getting alternative trade agreements haven't the US already told us to jog on either today or yesterday (I belive New Zealand have been nice). Regarding open borders we don't really have them especially when it comes to what most people are talking about ie refugee camps in northern France and the people in them coming to the UK.
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Should We Leave the EU?
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EM2
Established Member
As has already been mentioned, the UK was a founding member of the European Convention on Human Rights in 1950.
The European Court of Human Rights was established in 1959, the jurisdiction of the Court has been recognised to date by all 47 member states of the Council of Europe. In 1998, the Court became a full-time institution and the European Commission of Human Rights, which used to decide on admissibility of applications, was abolished by Protocol 11.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The ECHR and EU are different, and a country can be a member of one at not the other. There are 20 countries, uncluding Turkey, who are in the ECHR and not in the EU.
The referendum is about membership of the EU only. Leaving the ECHR on the back of an EU no vote would be unconscionable.
The European Court of Human Rights has many non-EU members, including Russia. If we were to bow out we'd be in the esteemed company of Belarus, that wonderful country, known as "Europe's last dictatorship". Greece did withdraw when it was a military dictatorship, fortunately that didn't last long.
It seems most daily express readers dislike things like a right to a fair and speedy trial, the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, the right to a legal defence, the right to not be tortured, etc.
Doesn't surprise me, anti-Churchill hatemongers who wanted to cover up the thalidomide scandal.
Busaholic
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Since 1970 I've taken every opportunity to vote at a national level, with one exception: the 1975 referendum. My wife and I chose to absent ourselves from the country rather than make a decision, the reason in my case being that, although I was opposed to Ted Heath taking us into the Common Market the previous year, I felt it was too precipitate to call for an immediate withdrawal. This time I shall certainly vote, and I shall almost certainly vote 'yes'.
There is much wrong with the EEC and its opaque bureaucracy but a UK in the grip of many of those who are most vocal for withdrawal would be a UK I would not wish to live in. Let's face it, if Donald Trump was British he'd be on that platform with Farage and Galloway, and let's not forget that all three have expressed (apparent) admiration for Putin. By their friends you shall know them.
I do genuinely wonder if anyone has changed their mind over how they will vote by any contributions to this thread?
There is much wrong with the EEC and its opaque bureaucracy but a UK in the grip of many of those who are most vocal for withdrawal would be a UK I would not wish to live in. Let's face it, if Donald Trump was British he'd be on that platform with Farage and Galloway, and let's not forget that all three have expressed (apparent) admiration for Putin. By their friends you shall know them.
I do genuinely wonder if anyone has changed their mind over how they will vote by any contributions to this thread?
DelayRepay
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I was going to vote to leave, until I read that this would lead to us having to keep the Pacers. So now I am voting to stay and hope that in celebration the EU will also ban Voyagers and any trains with 3+2 seating.
:roll:
It was some years ago now so and I can't find the articles on the Beeb news website about the long protracted process Teresa May went through to get him extradited. But two things are certain the bloke hated the UK yet was very happy to use UK taxpayers money through legal aid to pay for his battle against extradition and house his family in London.
So? There have been repeated calls at various times to leave the ECHR especially when it has tried to overrule our own judges. It has been said many times in the press that being part of the ECHR was a condition of being part of the EU. Is that true or not?
Instead of asking again, you could try reading the replies you have already had...
I doubt many people will change their mind. The next few months will be mainly about winning the c.15% who haven't decided yet, and in encouraging those who have decided to actually get out and vote on polling day.
Current polling seems to indicate that the remain camp have the edge on 44% this month vs 39% in the no camp, but plenty of undecideds to swing every way.
I have to admit the stuff the Galloways and Expresses of the world come out with (frothing about basic human rights) are pushing me into the remain camp.
It's difficult to know, being as every civilised (and most uncivilised) country in europe is a member, and the rest of the world have similar guarantees, and a vote to leave the EU isn't going to change that.
According to this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/stuart-brown/jeremy-clarkson-pro-eu-politicians_b_6309620.html
Jeremy Clarkson is staunchly pro-EU. For some reason I found this quite surprising.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/stuart-brown/jeremy-clarkson-pro-eu-politicians_b_6309620.html
Jeremy Clarkson is staunchly pro-EU. For some reason I found this quite surprising.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Ever since I can remember, my decision on the way that I vote has never been swayed in the final run-up to any General Election, Council Election or Referendum. My views are the result of personal decisions reached long before such events take place based upon my own personal understandings and not of the understandings of others.
The ECHR did not order the UK to pay benefits or provide housing. You can't find reputable articles stating they did because they don't exist. Google is your friend (well, in this case not really). Maybe time for an apology?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Paul - you may have detailed knowledge and understanding of the EU and its operations on which to base your views. Many do not and base their views on what they read in the papers or what they hear in the media via the hectoring of the likes of Nigel Farage and his Tory chums.
Some of us want to see a detailed and dispassionate debate about the pros and cons of membership rather than the usual wibble about immigrants, benefits, human rights and sovereignty.
ExRes
Established Member
I guess that alone should sway most on this forum to join the out campaign .....
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I totally and absolutely agree with your second paragraph, what chance we stand of receiving such a debate is very questionable though
In your first paragraph though you've immediately gone for ".. the hectoring of the likes of Nigel Farage and his Tory chums", are you saying that the pro campaign will be free of hectoring?, I believe that Mr In Cameron is already attacking Mr Out Johnson after calling for an 'orderly debate'
Clarkson is an actor. Top Gear was an Alan Partridge-style satire on sad middle aged men. Of course in reality Clarkson is pro EU.
And an avid cyclist.
Todays headline: Big firms warn EU exit 'threatens jobs'
:roll:
What I want to know is what the concrete plans are (if we leave) for my Polish window cleaner -- will he be deported? How about my German consultant at the hospital? I'm concerned as they're both customers of my local shop, and that's going to impact on their bottom line.
What will happen to my Brother who lives in Portugal, or my friend who works in Munich? They're both probably fine as they have Portugese/German wives. Will my parents ex-pat friends in Greece be repatriated though?
Has the "leave" campaign even got a suggestion, let alone a plan?
I can't imagine anybody will be deported but we will see an end to the endless supply of cheap labour from Eastern Europe that have flooded the healthcare and construction industries supressing wages in the process!
DarloRich
Veteran Member
There was a very good debate on radio 5 yesterday evening with two impartial experts giving both sides of the view to listeners emails with none of the usual spin. They stuck to verifiable facts and figures.
both sides are bad although the Farage and his fellow Tory types have held the agenda for a long time and seem to dominate the press. There is no comparable "figurehead" for the yes campaign. Is that the PM? I am not sure. If it is he needs to step up to the mark.
As for the Conservatives they will be using this referendum as an opportunity for grandstanding and positioning ahead of their leadership elections. Boris, Gideon and the rest have their eyes on the big prize. They cant risk being seen as "soft" on Europe.
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Why do you think no-one will be deported in the event of a vote to leave? We simply do not know what will happen. We might well end up swapping the young, hard working, net-tax-contributing workers from other EU states for the older, ill-er, often retired British citizens current in Spain and elsewhere who lose their right to live in the EU. The numbers are almost the same [1], so the UK would certainly be a net economic loser, and the lives of millions of people would be disrupted. Nice one Nigel.
[1] https://euobserver.com/social/123066
Mvann
Member
Has anybody seen anything from what our MEPs think?
This is just pure scaremongering!
I'm confused on what the state will be for people who rely on freedom of movement. Will Spain be happy to let our citizens continue living there in their cultural enclaves while at the same time we will not allow Spanish citizens to live here? Will we still have EHIC medical cover?
I accept your argument that prices and taxes will rise though.
Let's assume we leave, what next? What is the first law to be revoked? What's the first treaty? What's the timescale?
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How much is the medical cover paid for by the uk under reciprocal agreements? How many of those oaps will require benefits when they return? Pensioners as a whole are better off than workers, and I suspect the average ex pay pensioner is wealthier then the average uk pensioner.
If I had to bet on it, I would say that people would not be repatriated under Brexit, and also I predict that Freedom of Movement would be retained, as that is what business wants. However, that would not satisfy most of those who voted for Brexit.
Johnuk123
Established Member
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One thing is certain, vote for IN and we're IN for the foreseeable future, vote OUT and we would be able to rejoin in the future, in fact the EU would probably be falling over themselves by continually inviting us to rejoin.
I didn't say anything about prices and taxes rising
It's a perfectly possible scenario, unless you can provide any evidence to the contrary. I know many people who are very afraid of it. It would help if the 'no' camp would outline their vision for the country if they win, but even then there would be no guarantee that they could deliver it.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I believe the treaty of Lisbon sets out a 2 year withdrawal and disengagement period - the first European treaty to specifically allow a departure from the union
RichmondCommu
Established Member
People who have doubts as to the extent of a negative effect on the economy if we vote to leave need only to look at the steep overall falls in Sterling against the US Dollar and the Euro. Not to mention the reaction of the credit rating agencies.
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You do seem obsessed with the Conservatives, and you obviously have an inside track on their thoughts. Of course it is equally possible that opposition parties will continue their own little internal squabbles (See, for instance, the laughter from the Labour benches at the "Who are you?" joke).
Or perhaps it is possible that politicians of all colours are generally hard-working, well meaning types who will take this issue seriously.
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