Should we have DOO?

[O L Leigh]

...and if it is implemented along the lines of the Strathclyde model it won't result in a reduction in staffing and, therefore, would not yield the savings that the DfT want.

O L Leigh

 

[ainsworth74]

...and if it is implemented along the lines of the Strathclyde model it won't result in a reduction in staffing and, therefore, would not yield the savings that the DfT want.

Actually that's a point. Why was the Strathclyde model introduced? What was the motivating factor to going to DOO with on-board ticket examiners on nearly every train? Or did it start out as DOO as seen in the South East but moved to the model that's currently implemented?

 

[RPI]

Because a ticket examiner is on a lot less money than a guard so a net saving overall, and a ticket examiner will also be far more productive and be able to collect more fares as they don't have to worry about pushing buttons

 

[notadriver]

Is that how you see a guards job then - 'pushing buttons' ? Dispatch of trains is a very important and safety critical job.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Because a ticket examiner is on a lot less money than a guard so a net saving overall, and a ticket examiner will also be far more productive and be able to collect more fares as they don't have to worry about pushing buttons

And what world do you live in exactly? A Guard is so much more knowledgable in so many more things than safety, we even press a couple of buttons :roll:

 

[ac6000cw]

Dispatch of trains is a very important and safety critical job.

Yes - that's exactly why the driver has the final decision as to whether the train actually moves or not....

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Yes - that's exactly why the driver has the final decision as to whether the train actually moves or not....

errrrr actually No! Thats why the Guard is in control of when it moves as it is our decision (just like in DOO land when the driver has crappy monitors and mirrors instead of eyes) to decide when it is safe. The only time I would ever expect 1 back from the driver is if I almost caused a Spad (which luckily I have Never done)

There is a simple saying that resonates around 2 man control land

Let the Driver Drive

And the Guard Guard!

Drivers do a superb job and so do Guards

Thats is why the railway is a safe as it is!

 

[Carlisle]

Actually that's a point. Why was the Strathclyde model introduced? What was the motivating factor to going to DOO with on-board ticket examiners on nearly every train? Or did it start out as DOO as seen in the South East but moved to the model that's currently implemented?

As far as I can remember due to high losses there was a review of costs on Scotrail around the mid 80 s involving BR ,SPT local government etc ,so cost savings across the board were agreed like re signalling , sprinterisation some local electrification and DOO of SPT local electric services which I believe have always carried a second member of staff historically due to smaller stations being unstaffed but I'm sure the unions applied pressure too

 

[68000]

errrrr actually No! Thats why the Guard is in control of when it moves as it is our decision (just like in DOO land when the driver has crappy monitors and mirrors instead of eyes) to decide when it is safe. The only time I would ever expect 1 back from the driver is if I almost caused a Spad (which luckily I have Never done)

That does not disprove what ac6000cw actually said! The driver does have final decision as to whether the train moves or not
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as I can remember due to high losses there was a review of costs on Scotrail around the mid 80 s involving BR ,SPT local government etc ,so cost savings across the board were agreed like re signalling , sprinterisation some local electrification and DOO of SPT local electric services which I believe have always carried a second member of staff historically due to smaller stations being unstaffed but I'm sure the unions applied pressure too

Correct, DOO was introduced in lieu of shutting lines

 

[ANorthernGuard]

That does not disprove what ac6000cw actually said! The driver does have final decision as to whether the train moves or not
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Correct, DOO was introduced in lieu of shutting lines

Only if he sees something dangerous in front of him, to say anything else is just plainly daft (Unless once again you are in a DOO area)

 

[O L Leigh]

That does not disprove what ac6000cw actually said! The driver does have final decision as to whether the train moves or not

No the driver doesn't have the final say unless, as ANorthernGuard says, the guard tries to send the train through a red signal.

It is the guard's responsibility to check that station duties have been completed and it is safe for the train to move. Then, and only then, will they give two on the bell/buzzer to signal to the driver that the train is ready to start. What grounds does the driver have to overrule this when he/she has no part in completing station duties?

O L Leigh

 

[ANorthernGuard]

No the driver doesn't have the final say unless, as ANorthernGuard says, the guard tries to send the train through a red signal.

It is the guard's responsibility to check that station duties have been completed and it is safe for the train to move. Then, and only then, will they give two on the bell/buzzer to signal to the driver that the train is ready to start. What grounds does the driver have to overrule this when he/she has no part in completing station duties?

O L Leigh

Thanks mate

 

[jopsuk]

No the driver doesn't have the final say unless, as ANorthernGuard says, the guard tries to send the train through a red signal.

It is the guard's responsibility to check that station duties have been completed and it is safe for the train to move. Then, and only then, will they give two on the bell/buzzer to signal to the driver that the train is ready to start. What grounds does the driver have to overrule this when he/she has no part in completing station duties?

O L Leigh

The driver surely does have the final; say? His decision as to whether or not the train moves obviously requires the input from the guard to say station duties are complete, but as well as signals at danger there's always the (remote) chance that there may have been something (or more likely, someone) end up on the line in front of the train out of sight of the guard. It's not as if the guard has a gun to the head of the driver forcing him to start.

 

[notadriver]

In normal operations (that is pre-supposing there are no red signals and/or nothing abnormal with train or track), the guard controls dispatch. The driver can't depart without the guards authority.

 

[O L Leigh]

The driver surely does have the final; say? His decision as to whether or not the train moves obviously requires the input from the guard to say station duties are complete, but as well as signals at danger there's always the (remote) chance that there may have been something (or more likely, someone) end up on the line in front of the train out of sight of the guard. It's not as if the guard has a gun to the head of the driver forcing him to start.

Oh dear, we really are at the hair splitting level now.

Yes of course the driver won't set off if there is an obstruction irrespective of the guard's input. However, that is a separate matter to the safe completion of station duties.

Then again, it's probably better that the driver is separated from the despatch process because they won't have their attention diverted away from what's happening out front, especially at locations where there is "look back" working. Checking back to make sure that no-one falls down the gap as you pull away means you're not looking out front for anything untoward happening.

O L Leigh

 

[warriorwarlord]

(just like in DOO land when the driver has crappy monitors and mirrors instead of eyes)

I guess monitors are OK if you have station staff carry out daily checks to ensure that camera's are aligned with no blind spots and monitor quality is A ok, this happens on LUL.

Does such a thing happen on the mainline?

 

[Tomnick]

So, to summarise for the benefit of the pedants, the Guard has the responsibility for confirming that station duties have been safely completed and that the train's ready to depart? Still sounds like "an important and safety-critical job" to me, even if the Driver does have to make the "final decision" once the Guard's done his stuff...

 

[68000]

Twlight zone time alert, it is obvious that the driver has final say to depart. He may rely on the Guard to clear dispatch but he has final say. To think otherwise is mad
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, to summarise for the benefit of the pedants, the Guard has the responsibility for confirming that station duties have been safely completed and that the train's ready to depart? Still sounds like "an important and safety-critical job" to me, even if the Driver does have to make the "final decision" once the Guard's done his stuff...

May well be but it is not correct at all to say 'errrrr actually No!' to 'Yes - that's exactly why the driver has the final decision as to whether the train actually moves or not....'

 

[O L Leigh]

I guess monitors are OK if you have station staff carry out daily checks to ensure that camera's are aligned with no blind spots and monitor quality is A ok, this happens on LUL.

Does such a thing happen on the mainline?

I doubt it. I had to report a DOO mirror for being too dirty. A week later I have to report the same mirror for being etched because whoever had come out to clean it had clearly used something inappropriate to clean it. A couple of weeks after that there was a brand new mirror.

The problem with DOO monitors is that you have to be accurate to the foot in where you stop the train in order to get a clear view. Perversely it this is even more crucial for the newer colour types because the screens are effectively computer monitors turned on their sides and if you stop a little short you won't get a very clear view at all. These monitors were identified as a contributory factor in the incident where a passenger lost a limb at Huntingdon when they were dragged along the platform and fell under the train after their jacket became caught in the doors of an FCC service.

O L Leigh

 

[Tomnick]

Twlight zone time alert, it is obvious that the driver has final say to depart. He may rely on the Guard to clear dispatch but he has final say. To think otherwise is mad
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


May well be but it is not correct at all to say 'errrrr actually No!' to 'Yes - that's exactly why the driver has the final decision as to whether the train actually moves or not....'

No, that much I agree on. So - both have important responsibilities during the non-DOO dispatch process, yes?

 

[O L Leigh]

Twlight zone time alert, it is obvious that the driver has final say to depart. He may rely on the Guard to clear dispatch but he has final say. To think otherwise is mad

And what do I do if I decide that the guard has given me two on the buzzer three minutes or so early? Or should I be giving the guard a rocket if I decide he's being too tardy?

O L Leigh

 

[warriorwarlord]

I doubt it. I had to report a DOO mirror for being too dirty. A week later I have to report the same mirror for being etched because whoever had come out to clean it had clearly used something inappropriate to clean it. A couple of weeks after that there was a brand new mirror.

I think DOO/OPO can only be considered safe if stations are actually staffed with people who are licensed to dispatch in case of equipment failiure and that the equipment is checked regularly with markers on the platform to make sure there are no blind spots.

Otherwise, with the amount of unstaffed stations out there, I think the role of guard is still very much important!

 

[yorkie]

I think DOO/OPO can only be considered safe if stations are actually staffed with people who are licensed to dispatch in case of equipment failiure....

See Degraded dispatch method

Modern DOO installations (e.g. SouthEastern High Speed) are based on bodyside CCTV cameras.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k9n6WVihu0&feature=player_detailpage#t=523

 

[68000]

And what do I do if I decide that the guard has given me two on the buzzer three minutes or so early? Or should I be giving the guard a rocket if I decide he's being too tardy?

O L Leigh

You can give the guard what you want, it is the driver decision to go. The driver is accountable not the guard

 

[Tomnick]

Both are accountable, surely?

 

[O L Leigh]

No matter what method of DOO despatch is being used, where do you want the driver to be looking? Down the line where the train is heading or back along the platform to check that no-one has fallen down the gap? And what about stock that does not permit the driver to look back while driving due to the layout of the cab or has in-cab CCTV monitors that shut down the moment the train hits 5mph or the platform is curved or has an obstructed view? And even where there are platform staff, how do you call back a DOO service once it's been despatched?

The poor lass that died under a Merseyrail service in Liverpool isn't the only person to have lost their lives after falling down the gap between the platform and a departing train.

You can give the guard what you want, it is the driver decision to go. The driver is accountable not the guard

No, it's not.

Both are accountable, surely?

No. If there is a delay at a station it is down to the guard but if you lose time between two places then it is down to the driver.

O L Leigh

 

[the sniper]

You can give the guard what you want, it is the driver decision to go. The driver is accountable not the guard

If the driver starts against a red where the Guard has given two, the Guard will be in more trouble than the driver... The Guard is also the one accountable if the train goes early.

 

[TheEdge]

Modern DOO installations (e.g. SouthEastern High Speed) are based on bodyside CCTV cameras.

And if they are defective a DOO service will be cancelled just as quick as a service would be cancelled if the guard didn't show.

 

[Tomnick]

No. If there is a delay at a station it is down to the guard but if you lose time between two places then it is down to the driver.

Apologies, misunderstood what 68000 was trying to say - I thought the suggestion was that the driver alone was accountable for the whole dispatch process, not just timekeeping. Either way, I agree with you that it's the Guard's problem!

 

[yorkie]

And what about stock that does not permit the driver to look back while driving due to the layout of the cab or has in-cab CCTV monitors that shut down the moment the train hits 5mph or the platform is curved or has an obstructed view?

But would the Guard of, say, a Voyager, be able to see if a passenger had slipped under the train?