Should we have DOO?

[PermitToTravel]

Well if we carry on keeping wages low and not raising them in line with inflation the welfare bill is going to carry on rising surely you dont think that is a sustainable course of action to follow ?

It is not the responsibility of employers to minimise the welfare bill

 

[muz379]

It is not the responsibility of employers to minimise the welfare bill

It is when they are paying their employees minimum wage which is so low that said employees are also having to claim benefits to afford to live . Meanwhile said employer is returning £2billion in profits for its shareholders

 

[PermitToTravel]

It is when they are paying their employees minimum wage which is so low that said employees are also having to claim benefits to afford to live . Meanwhile said employer is returning £2billion in profits for its shareholders

That should be fixed by changes to rules regarding the minimum wage and/or welfare

 

[68000]

As regards DSD, you are making my point for me - if it doesn't activate an emergency transmission in the event of incapacitation then why are the "get rid of guards to save a few quid" brigade so sure it's a panacea?

It does send an emergency transmission in the event of incapacitation, it does not set up an emergency group call. It has never happened though which shows the fraction of a fraction multiplied by a fraction event it is

 

[455driver]

That should be fixed by changes to rules regarding the minimum wage and/or welfare

So anyone with a child would sit at home all day because they would be much worse off in a minimum wage job (and no top up benefits) than being at home all day on the dole.

That would be an excellent 'fix'! :roll:

 

[SF-02]

This is a looong discussion and I havn't read it all but if there's DOO there must be station staff at barriers and frequent RPI patrols or many just will not pay and there's little to make them.

 

[PermitToTravel]

So anyone with a child would sit at home all day because they would be much worse off in a minimum wage job (and no top up benefits) than being at home all day on the dole.

That would be an excellent 'fix'! :roll:

I made no suggestions about the nature of any changes.

 

[w0033944]

It does send an emergency transmission in the event of incapacitation, it does not set up an emergency group call.

I'm aware of that. I don't get the point you were making, though.

It has never happened though which shows the fraction of a fraction multiplied by a fraction event it is

Accidents have occurred to non-DOO stock within the past 10 years in which the driver has been killed, trapped or rendered unconscious, so why you think it should be a near-impossibility on DOO services when more operators and routes will be going-over to DOO operation (thereby increasing the likelihood of it happening in such circumstances), I have no idea. It may be a small risk, but, the more often that risk is taken, the more likely it is to happen.

 

[ExRes]

Wouldn't the part of the train the person falls against play a part, if they fall against the corridor connection, they might well fall down to track level and be killed. Guard or DOO probably won't make much difference.

Modern stock can accelerate faster, so by the time the train stops it might also be too late.

Also does all stock have at least one window that drops down that the guard could use? If they don't, how would the guard notice it if the person has fallen down low?

Try finding the drop down window on a 220/221/222

 

[Oscar]

DOO does seem very problematic for busy London commuter services. Do you think it would cut costs much if implemented on lightly used regional services? Arguments against it would be:
- the need to install ticket machines and employ roving inspectors or a member of staff just to sell tickets
- safety concerns / dehumanisation if the driver is the only member of staff on the train

 

[Carlisle]

Try finding the drop down window on a 220/221/222

Or a 180 or Pendilino (I know they have tiny opening cab windows which I guess are useless for dispatching )

 

[PermitToTravel]

DOO does seem very problematic for busy London commuter services.

It's very interesting to contrast this with LU on which DOO has been very successful. There are certainly lessons the TOCs/DfT could learn from LU.

I think, whether or not DOO is expanded on NR, the following should be rolled out:

• Station-to-train CCTV, visible in all cabs while any part of the train is in a station
• A system only allowing doors to be opened/released if there is a platform beside them
• Station staff who are track competent and can do things like scotch and clip points, isolate traction current, or assist with train to track detrainments
• Train emergency stop plungers on every platform

Also, on busy commuter routes:

• Staffed+gated stations!
• Trains with more than two doors per coach
• An option for the driver/guard to open all doors, rather than just release them

 

[Tomnick]

Station staff who are track competent and can do things like scotch and clip points, isolate traction current, or assist with train to track detrainments

Now there's a way to save money (delays, compensation and the rest), improve efficiency and increase safety (fewer trains approaching signals at danger, less degraded working and so on) if ever there was one. It'd certainly be a challenge to arrange (training and ongoing competency), but ultimately far better than destaffing as far as possible and sod the passengers when it goes wrong...!

 

[92002]

This is a long discussion and I haven't read it all but if there's DOO there must be station staff at barriers and frequent RPI patrols or many just will not pay and there's little to make them.

One of the many benefits of DOO is to release guards from despatch and
door operation duties. Allowing them to take their ticket machine and issue tickets to ticketless travelers. As well as check the tickets of those who actually have one. They also face the travelling public for onboard
security on the train.

Lots of lost revenue recovered, perhaps contributing to less subsidy needed
for operation of the service. Giving a future for the continued operation of the service. Along with a Higher customer awareness of staff on the train for RPI and
customer safety.

 

[fowler9]

One of the many benefits of DOO is to release guards from despatch and
door operation duties. Allowing them to take their ticket machine and issue tickets to ticketless travelers. As well as check the tickets of those who actually have one. They also face the travelling public for onboard
security on the train.

Lots of lost revenue recovered, perhaps contributing to less subsidy needed
for operation of the service. Giving a future for the continued operation of the service. Along with a Higher customer awareness of staff on the train for RPI and
customer safety.

Perhaps you could advise if current DOO trains have managed to reduce the number of people bunking on. I'm guessing not.
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It is not the responsibility of employers to minimise the welfare bill

Actually yeah it is, and it is in their best interests if they want to keep making money.

 

[Carlisle]

DOO does seem very problematic for busy London commuter services.

On many London commuter routes (SWT & LM aside) the train has quite possibly been DOO already for up to 25 years on all or part of its route and according to most regulars seems to work well most of the time

 

[muz379]

One of the many benefits of DOO is to release guards from despatch and
door operation duties. Allowing them to take their ticket machine and issue tickets to ticketless travelers. As well as check the tickets of those who actually have one. They also face the travelling public for onboard
security on the train.

Lots of lost revenue recovered, perhaps contributing to less subsidy needed
for operation of the service. Giving a future for the continued operation of the service. Along with a Higher customer awareness of staff on the train for RPI and
customer safety.

I can only speak for my own experiences at one TOC working routes out of one depot as well as speaking to guards from other depots at my TOC but apart from a small number of stations that are exceptionally close together we get to do revenue between most places assuming A working ticket machine and it is not crowded to the point you cant pass through the train . So releasing us from dispatch would not enable the collection of any more revenue .One of the bigger areas I suspect revenue is lost is having stock coupled together with no corridor connection and only one guard

At these exceptionally close stations even if I didnt have to do dispatch at these I still wouldnt be able to check the tickets or sell tickets to all passengers boarding and alighting between the two.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

One of the bigger areas I suspect revenue is lost is having stock coupled together with no corridor connection and only one guard

If a train is made up of two or more units without a coridoor connection, why isn't there a guard in each unit? Ok only one would need to do the guards duties, the other could focus on revenue or they could take turns at doing the guards duty, say swapping over every 3 stations or every say 40 miles

 

[ANorthernGuard]

One of the many benefits of DOO is to release guards from despatch and
door operation duties. Allowing them to take their ticket machine and issue tickets to ticketless travelers. As well as check the tickets of those who actually have one. They also face the travelling public for onboard
security on the train.

Lots of lost revenue recovered, perhaps contributing to less subsidy needed
for operation of the service. Giving a future for the continued operation of the service. Along with a Higher customer awareness of staff on the train for RPI and
customer safety.

On the lines that I work (South Manchester) there is perhaps on route that is a struggle to get everyone even off peak which is the MIA-MAN (Ask starmill) so most of us just do the back carriage until MAU then do our best to get the other 2 carriages checked before MAN luckily there is a few minutes dwell time outside of MAN where we usually get the last couple but it does not help when they shut the ticket offices at 13.00 (Except HDG) when that line is a constant source of relatively good income!

 

[muz379]

If a train is made up of two or more units without a coridoor connection, why isn't there a guard in each unit? Ok only one would need to do the guards duties, the other could focus on revenue or they could take turns at doing the guards duty, say swapping over every 3 stations or every say 40 miles

Because there is no requirement to have more than one guard it does not happen at least at the TOC I work for ,one could be cynical and say as it is a privatized railway we have and TOCS know that regardless of how much revenue they collect they are guaranteed the same level of profit from government subsidy there is no need for them to employ and deploy 2 guards for every train without a corridor connection .

Which brings me onto the point that if there is no requirement for a guard or ticket examiner or whatever they are going to be called for a train to run how many trains will actually run without them if you take away the safety critical nature of the job , and how will this effect revenue collection and in turn the actual money you are saving by getting rid of the guard ?

On the lines that I work (South Manchester) there is perhaps on route that is a struggle to get everyone even off peak which is the MIA-MAN (Ask starmill) so most of us just do the back carriage until MAU then do our best to get the other 2 carriages checked before MAN luckily there is a few minutes dwell time outside of MAN where we usually get the last couple but it does not help when they shut the ticket offices at 13.00 (Except HDG) when that line is a constant source of relatively good income!

I dont work the stoppers from MIA so I dont know about revenue collection on those, but the services I work out of MIA we manage to get through in the off peak before Piccadilly , in peak times it can be a bit harder and so a bit busier . That is also a service where it is more likely to get asked loads of questions so not get to complete revenue checks .
Anybody on trains from MIA that is traveling into just Picadilly will have their tickets checked on leaving the station anyway (at least in theory). And then anybody that travels further afield than Manchester is likely to have their tickets checked somewhere along the journey they are making .

 

[Aictos]

It's very interesting to contrast this with LU on which DOO has been very successful. There are certainly lessons the TOCs/DfT could learn from LU.

I think, whether or not DOO is expanded on NR, the following should be rolled out:

• Station staff who are track competent and can do things like scotch and clip points, isolate traction current, or assist with train to track detrainments

Also, on busy commuter routes:

• Staffed+gated stations!

Now from what I've been told by my ex BR colleagues the first point above actually used to be done whereas station staff were a lot more competent in BR days then they currently are as they were trained in the above however nowadays in the accountant's mind there is NO need for station staff to be trained up on the basics as you've mentioned which is why in my view where the efficiency earnings are to be made.

Example 1. Train trapped at Stevenage Platform 4 unable to continue onto the Down Slow, a member of station staff who is trained could with permission from the signaller clamp the pointwork to enable the train to proceed at caution to access the Down Fast in order to depart the station however this will never happen as the powers to be don't want it to happen.

Your other point above staffed and gated station, I can think of one station which DOES have gateline barriers on the GN but hardly sees the gateline barriers in operation mostly being left open 80 to 90% of the time now pardon me for questioning your point but I think it's a waste of resources to install gatelines at any station if they're not to be manned properly therefore excuse me being cynical for a moment but I don't think installing them on routes converted to DOO operation will bring in any more revenue then what happens under Guard operation.

Which is why although I think gating stations is a good thing to deter ticketless travel they need to be manned properly to make full use of them.

 

[SF-02]

One of the many benefits of DOO is to release guards from despatch and
door operation duties. Allowing them to take their ticket machine and issue tickets to ticketless travelers. As well as check the tickets of those who actually have one. They also face the travelling public for onboard
security on the train.

Lots of lost revenue recovered, perhaps contributing to less subsidy needed
for operation of the service. Giving a future for the continued operation of the service. Along with a Higher customer awareness of staff on the train for RPI and
customer safety.

That did not happen around London on every route I'm familiar with, and now fare evasion is very widespread. DOO meant guards were ditched completely, and barriers only really manned to any length of time at terminals. Anyone taking local trips can do for free.

TfL know that there is a large amount of revenue going missing and so when taking over routes have staffed and manned barriers at many stations all day, every day. They were willing to take on this revenue risk as they were sure it would pay for itself. That's really the only substitute for DOO.
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On many London commuter routes (SWT & LM aside) the train has quite possibly been DOO already for up to 25 years on all or part of its route and according to most regulars seems to work well most of the time

Not so sure about that. I know of places where the culture amongst many is to just not pay. I've known quite a few people that havn't paid for years - some DOO lines in London and surrounding areas are thought of as free lines amongst many people.

TfL realised there is a widespread feeling that paying is optional and thus made staff and barriers a big element of their takeover of Silverlink, Southern routes, the Denmark Hill routes, and Greater Anglia next year.

 

[BritishRail83]

That did not happen around London on every route I'm familiar with, and now fare evasion is very widespread. DOO meant guards were ditched completely, and barriers only really manned to any length of time at terminals. Anyone taking local trips can do for free.

TfL know that there is a large amount of revenue going missing and so when taking over routes have staffed and manned barriers at many stations all day, every day. They were willing to take on this revenue risk as they were sure it would pay for itself. That's really the only substitute for DOO.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Not so sure about that. I know of places where the culture amongst many is to just not pay. I've known quite a few people that havn't paid for years - some DOO lines in London and surrounding areas are thought of as free lines amongst many people.

TfL realised there is a widespread feeling that paying is optional and thus made staff and barriers a big element of their takeover of Silverlink, Southern routes, the Denmark Hill routes, and Greater Anglia next year.

The Chingford branch has always struck me as a highly abused route in that respect!

 

[otomous]

On many London commuter routes (SWT & LM aside) the train has quite possibly been DOO already for up to 25 years on all or part of its route and according to most regulars seems to work well most of the time

Aside from every time there is a delay in closing the doors because the driver can't see the platform to his complete satisfaction from whatever is available in the cab; every passcomm that the driver has to stop the train for and go back and reset (thus holding up the trains behind and possibly ahead too); every passenger taken sick that the driver has to deal with; every fault that now takes longer to deal with because the driver has to deal with passengers as well as the train; and every bit of anti social behaviour that there is now no one in the train to address.

 

[BritishRail83]

Aside from every time there is a delay in closing the doors because the driver can't see the platform to his complete satisfaction from whatever is available in the cab; every passcomm that the driver has to stop the train for and go back and reset (thus holding up the trains behind and possibly ahead too); every passenger taken sick that the driver has to deal with; every fault that now takes longer to deal with because the driver has to deal with passengers as well as the train; and every bit of anti social behaviour that there is now no one in the train to address.

I always think back to about 2009 and the night that a lady got mugged i.e grabbed out of her hand, a mobile phone a few seats away from me on the Greenwich line at Deptford on an up train on a Sunday night i jumped up as the muggers sprinted out the doors and down the platform. I asked her if she was alright she was just shocked as i suppose anyone would be. I pulled the alarm and told the driver. Who was very good and asked if anyone was hurt and requested the police. We sat there for about 10 minutes the driver came up to our carriage and said the signalman had been informed by the police that it would take about an hour for them to get there and take the train forward to cannon st and report it there....by phone! The point i am trying to make is unstaffed station, driver on his own. Ok so there wasn't anything more the guard could have done but if i had a violent incident and the assailants still on scene the driver could be attacked as well as leaving his cab puts him in a vulnerable position with keys to a multiple unit with passengers onboard. True a guard is vulnerable as well but the driver would be locked in his cab with radio to the signaling centre as back up.

 

[SF-02]

I always think back to about 2009 and the night that a lady got mugged i.e grabbed out of her hand, a mobile phone a few seats away from me on the Greenwich line at Deptford on an up train on a Sunday night i jumped up as the muggers sprinted out the doors and down the platform. I asked her if she was alright she was just shocked as i suppose anyone would be. I pulled the alarm and told the driver. Who was very good and asked if anyone was hurt and requested the police. We sat there for about 10 minutes the driver came up to our carriage and said the signalman had been informed by the police that it would take about an hour for them to get there and take the train forward to cannon st and report it there....by phone! The point i am trying to make is unstaffed station, driver on his own. Ok so there wasn't anything more the guard could have done but if i had a violent incident and the assailants still on scene the driver could be attacked as well as leaving his cab puts him in a vulnerable position with keys to a multiple unit with passengers onboard. True a guard is vulnerable as well but the driver would be locked in his cab with radio to the signaling centre as back up.

That line is also one of quite a few that is rife with fare evasion - it was made DOO in the early 90s and almost all stations have barriers open, barriers only at one entry/exit, or none at all which Deptford falls into, as does Greenwich one stop along which is a major station. TfL would barrier that no doubt and staff it properly. More often than not the ticket office is closed let alone there being other station staff.

Barriers and/or staff on the train would almost certainly make such occurrences rarer. Not eliminated of course but a bit rarer as there would be some deterrent.

 

[TheEdge]

Not so sure about that. I know of places where the culture amongst many is to just not pay. I've known quite a few people that havn't paid for years - some DOO lines in London and surrounding areas are thought of as free lines amongst many people.

TfL realised there is a widespread feeling that paying is optional and thus made staff and barriers a big element of their takeover of Silverlink, Southern routes, the Denmark Hill routes, and Greater Anglia next year.

And I think a widespread application of DOO would just increase that problem. I can see TOCs only regularly revenue manning known busy train and stations with a entry/exit figure over a certain point. It wouldn't take long for people to work out which trains and between which stations journeys could regularly be made for free. Its only going to hurt the rural TOCs and routes which are the ones which need the most effort to pay their way.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Can I offer a purely passenger opinion please that has no technical merit.

I like seeing a guard. It gives me enormous comfort factor on a train. The driver is up the front doing what needs doing.

The guard has the train - I like seeing that guard.

Nothing more than that. I hate DOO.

JW

not if the guard is hiding in the back cab ...

so many of these arguments seem to revolve around door controls or 1 in ?100000? incidents , not about the presence of customer service orientated on train staff ...

 

[TheEdge]

so many of these arguments seem to revolve around door controls or 1 in ?100000? incidents , not about the presence of customer service orientated on train staff ...

Because a guard is primarily an operational and safety oriented role. Punctuality and customer service come 2nd and 3rd to safety.

The point is not primarily that DOO will make customer service worse but how there will be unnecessary risks introduced to train travel by the removal of a safety critical operation position from the train.

 

[Tomnick]

However, DOO will undoubtedly also make customer service worse, if it's implemented in the same manner as most, Strathclyde excepted, with no more than a very occasional revenue protection presence.