Should we have a universal ID card?

[Razorblades]

The government has misled, lied to, gaslighted and played divide and rule with the British public to such an extent that many people are now extremely suspicious of what governments, especially those with globalist tendencies, are up to.

Plenty of the pandemic 'conspiracy theories' are now demonstrably points of fact, to the point where debate is now practically redundant. Unfortunately, 'buyer remorse' is such that many people are so far in denial that it's too difficult to engage and they would just rather pretend that nothing ever happened during 2019-2021.

 

[Topological]

I am not into any conspiracy theories.

I would live with the Digital ID card if it came in.

However, I do not want the Digital ID cards. You can say it is stupid, conspiracy, or whatever, but I like the fact that in the UK we do not have a formal tracking system for individuals activities across multiple platforms. There is a lot to be said for trusting people are who they say they are as a default position.

Generally speaking what governments are up to may be unpalletable, but it is usually consistent with their specific unpalletable beliefs (be that Tories helping their friends, or Labour trying to micromanage us all).

 

[DustyBin]

the problem is many of the "arguments" suggested rely utterly on conspiracy nonsense so it is hard to engage with them. There are people in this country who seem to have completely lost thier mind and fallen so far into the conspiracy rabbit hole they cant work out up from down!

I haven’t seen too much conspiracy nonsense in this thread to be honest (I have elsewhere!).

The primary concern appears to be the possibility (probability?) of mission creep, with ever more personal information and data being linked to the proposed digital ID and the ease with which it would allow the government to potentially interfere in various aspects of our lives. When one considers the events of 2020, and the way similar schemes have been (ab)used elsewhere, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to discuss these concerns, surely?

 

[Yorkshire09876]

the problem is many of the "arguments" suggested rely utterly on conspiracy nonsense so it is hard to engage with them. There are people in this country who seem to have completely lost thier mind and fallen so far into the conspiracy rabbit hole they cant work out up from down!

And another one!

Not everyone agrees with you on the definition of "conspiracy nonsense"!

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Cambridge defines a Conspiracy theory as:

conspiracy theory
noun

uk

a belief that an event or situation is the result of a secret plan made by powerful people

Other sources have similar definitions.
Many of the assertions made in this thread clearly meet this definition - that there is some secret plan to use ID cards for mass surveillance / state control, a plan put in place by the UK government / a wider world order / msterious powerful enemies...

ipso facto, they are conspiracy theories.

 

[DarloRich]

with ever more personal information and data being linked to the proposed digital ID and the ease with which it would allow the government to potentially interfere in various aspects of our lives.

How would they do that? Why? What would be the goal?

I think almost every European nation save Denmark, UK and Ireland have ID cards. Have these issues appeared there? If not why is the UK uniquely at risk?

it doesn’t seem unreasonable to discuss these concerns, surely?

Happy to discuss such concerns as long as not based on crank conspiracy nonsense. The problem is many ARE! There is no secret plan for the population to be controlled by the, er, globalist (?) order.

You cant discuss with these sort of people as there is no logical foundation to thier position.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Some, even in the present government, thought they didn't go far enough.

Exactly my point.

 

[43096]

What a fine example of the standard which public debate often now aspires to! You could address the issue, but no - far easier to start throwing playground insults at anyone who disagrees with you, isn't it?!

What do you expect when the issues have been thoroughly de-bunked as conspiracy nonsense? Yet people still persist with this twaddle.

 

[DustyBin]

How would they do that? Why? What would be the goal?

Put simply, because they think they know best!

I think almost every European nation save Denmark, UK and Ireland have ID cards. Have these issues appeared there? If not why is the UK uniquely at risk?

I don’t think any other European country has mandatory ID cards (digital or otherwise); I’m happy to be corrected though.

Who has claimed we’re uniquely at risk?

Happy to discuss such concerns as long as not based on crank conspiracy nonsense. The problem is many ARE! There is no secret plan for the population to be controlled by the, er, globalist (?) order.

You cant discuss with these sort of people as there is no logical foundation to thier position.

I agree there’s no secret plan or grand conspiracy, but I do think there’s the potential to effectively hand further power to the government. To what extent can the government be trusted to use such power wisely?

 

[realemil]

I don’t think any other European country has mandatory ID cards (digital or otherwise); I’m happy to be corrected though.

According to Wikipedia, "They are compulsory in fifteen countries, voluntary in eleven countries and in five countries they are semi-compulsory (possession of some ID is required)"

 

[Falcon1200]

I have stated my concerns in Posts #396 and #436, and conspiracies are not among them! Anyway, I have already scuppered the Government (and anyone else's) surveillance schemes by paying cash for everything......

 

[DoubleLemon]

the right wing complaints about ID Cards are such nonsense. If Farage came out with an idea for ID cards the whoppers would whop themselves crazy saying what a great idea it was for stopping forigns doing evil forign fings.

it is that transparent.

reform were tweeting and demanding them up to a few weeks ago

 

[DustyBin]

According to Wikipedia, "They are compulsory in fifteen countries, voluntary in eleven countries and in five countries they are semi-compulsory (possession of some ID is required)"

Fair enough, I stand corrected! The mandates appear to relate to physical cards though.

 

[DarloRich]

reform were tweeting and demanding them up to a few weeks ago

you amaze me!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2025 ==

Put simply, because they think they know best!

That isn't a good answer. Sorry but I must ask the question again: How would they do that? Why? What would be the goal?

If you are suggesting that there is a risk that the government could use ID cards to control out lives you must explain how you think that could happen and why. We can debate these points but we must have something to debate!

 

[Tetchytyke]

How would they do that? Why? What would be the goal?

Same reason why the Stasi had warehouses full of files on all its citizens?

Same reason why China has its social credit system?

Remember we’re dealing with a government who designated a group of people as terrorists because they threw some red paint at an Airbus A330. An Airbus A330 that is so vital to the country’s security that it will usually be found flying people to Torremolinos for their Jet2 Holiday, saving £50 per person, that’s £200 off for a family of four!

 

[signed]

Same reason why China has its social credit system?

That has been debunked so many time, social credit, as we think exist from the West, doesn't exisit in China. Sure, everyone is surveilled, but that's a given and means nothing right now

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2025 ==

Great video about that

The video, "The Truth About China's Social Credit System," argues that the widely publicized Western narrative of a single, all-encompassing, Orwellian social credit score is a profound misinterpretation of a much more fragmented government initiative.
The popular notion—that every citizen is assigned a score from 350 to 950 that punishes minor offenses like jaywalking or criticizing the government—is a conflation of various distinct, often localized projects, rooted in early speculation and amplified by media headlines [00:00]–[03:17].
The actual Social Credit System is a broad, vaguely defined national policy outline composed of three main areas:
Financial Credit: This was an attempt to establish credit reports for China's large unbanked population to boost consumption, initially delegated to eight private companies like Sesame Credit. The central government later refused to renew these companies' operating licenses, effectively halting this private-sector initiative [07:49]–[09:08], [12:25].
Local Reputation Systems: Vague central guidance to create a "reputation society" to combat moral crises (like food scandals and corruption) led to chaotic, often bizarre, and impractical pilot programs by dozens of city governments (e.g., subtracting points for smoking or rewarding steps). Many of these local experiments were quickly abandoned due to public backlash or central government intervention [10:48]–[12:17].
Blacklists: This effort is designed to centralize and share data across different government ministries. While most blacklisted entities are companies, the most severe restrictions (such as bans on taking flights or trains) are generally reserved for "judgment defaulters"—individuals who refuse to pay court-ordered damages despite having the requisite funds [12:43]–[13:51].
The video concludes that the dystopian narrative emerged from the media incorrectly blending the inputs of the optional, private Sesame Credit system (like shopping data) with the state-enforced punishments of the entirely separate Blacklists (like travel restrictions) [15:04]. It suggests that the true and more fundamental tool of social control in China is the pre-existing, non-score-related requirement of real-name registration for all SIM cards, internet accounts, and internet cafes [15:47]–[16:05].
Video: The Truth About China's Social Credit System

 

[Tetchytyke]

That has been debunked so many time, social credit doesn't exisit in China

Are you sure about that?

China unveils guideline to improve social credit system

China on Monday published a guideline to improve the social credit system amid efforts to promote its high-quality development.

english.www.gov.cn

BEIJING, March 31 -- China on Monday published a guideline to improve the social credit system amid efforts to promote its high-quality development.

The guideline, issued by the General Office of the Communist Party of China Central Committee and the General Office of the State Council, includes 23 measures and aims to build a unified national market while maintaining a fair and orderly competitive market environment.

It’s a bit more nuanced than people in the west understand it as, but it exists. Try posting Winnie the Pooh memes on Weibo and see what happens if you don’t believe me.

 

[signed]

Are you sure about that?

China unveils guideline to improve social credit system

China on Monday published a guideline to improve the social credit system amid efforts to promote its high-quality development.

english.www.gov.cn

My information is outdated then, I am sorry about that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My information is outdated then, I am sorry about that.

It’s nuanced, it’s not what we would understand as the credit score we would get from Experian, every Winnie the Pooh meme reducing your overdraft limit by RMB100. But if you’re critical of, or even merely nonplussed about, the government you find the doors of your life gradually closing. Similar to what we saw in East Germany.

 

[Topological]

The UK will never have anything approaching the Chinese system, whether we get Digital ID or not.

However, the security of knowing that we will not get to Chinese levels of state monitoring does not mean that we should get Digital IDs.

 

[AlterEgo]

I like the fact that in the UK we do not have a formal tracking system for individuals activities across multiple platforms. There is a lot to be said for trusting people are who they say they are as a default position.

That is not how your interactions with businesses or the state work. You have to evidence who you are to open a bank account, claim benefits, get on a plane, buy alcohol, rent a flat, buy a house, etc etc etc. You do not just get to tell institutions "trust me bro"; the electronic ID will make sure you have one gold standard ID which is essentially unfalsifiable, universally accepted, without scratching around for pieces of paper you may not have or have ever had.

 

[DarloRich]

Same reason why the Stasi had warehouses full of files on all its citizens?

To be clear you think that introducing an id card will begin an inexorable slide into totalitarianism? You really think that?

If so, why has it not happend in Belgium? I was there last year and didn't see any stasi. I drank a lot but wasn't that drunk that I missed an oppressive surveillance apparatus.

They have had an id card of some sort for over 100 years so it must be a slow slide.

Also why is Britain uniquely at risk of this problem? What is different about us?

 

[Cdd89]

That is not how your interactions with businesses or the state work. You have to evidence who you are to open a bank account, claim benefits, get on a plane, buy alcohol, rent a flat, buy a house, etc etc etc. You do not just get to tell institutions "trust me bro"; the electronic ID will make sure you have one gold standard ID which is essentially unfalsifiable, universally accepted, without scratching around for pieces of paper you may not have or have ever had.

I think you may have misunderstood the post you're replying to. I believe their point (which is also my view!) is that they like the fact that existing ID verification methods are quite weak in this country. In particular, unless you intend to drive or travel abroad, there is no requirement by the state to have your photo captured anywhere.

You are correct that digital ID with a centralised record will mean far more integrity to ID checks and the elimination of the remaining bit of trust in the system. But I wouldn't say that's a good thing; personally I would like fewer checks on things like right to work or financial transactions, and if that means more illegal immigration or money laundering or whatever, that's a consequence I'm willing to accept. (I know that's a difficult argument for some people to understand/empathise with; this is probably why the discussion in this thread hasn't really got anywhere!).

 

[AlterEgo]

You are correct that digital ID with a centralised record will mean far more integrity to ID checks and the elimination of the remaining bit of trust in the system. But I wouldn't say that's a good thing; personally I would like fewer checks on things like right to work or financial transactions, and if that means more illegal immigration or money laundering or whatever, that's a consequence I'm willing to accept. (I know that's a difficult argument for some people to understand/empathise with; this is probably why the discussion in this thread hasn't really got anywhere!).

I don't understand how fewer checks on financial transactions would lead to a more trustworthy system or a better society. Where's the benefit there?

 

[GusB]

As I've said before, I'm not opposed to having an ID scheme that can be used to prove eligibility to work, etc. When I applied for my last job it was an utter pain in the backside because I didn't possess a passport and my driving licence was a paper one. I was able to provide a birth certificate but, at the time, none of the household bills were in my name. I think I ended up producing a combination of birth certificate, paper driving licence, NHS card and bank statements. Ironically, my employer required me to apply for a personal alcohol licence and I was issued with a photocard which couldn't even be used as proof of age, despite the fact that I had to be over 18 to hold one in the first place!

That said, I do have some reservations about the proposed scheme. I have no objection to using it to interact with various government departments, local authorities or to obtain a bank account but I am concerned about "mission creep". While I'm well past the age where I'd expect to have to show ID for buying alcohol/tobacco etc., there are still certain age-restricted products where ID is required in order to purchase them. I wouldn't have a problem with being asked to show identification, but I would have a problem with my ID being recorded in order to make such a purchase.

I don't think that it's helpful to dismiss such concerns as "conspiracy theories" when people are genuinely concerned about how their data will be used.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the electronic ID will make sure you have one gold standard ID which is essentially unfalsifiable

You have more faith in a government IT project than I do.

And that’s before we consider how attractive it will be to fraudsters to get their hands on such a “gold standard” piece of ID, especially one held and used digitally. Online fraud already generates more revenue for organised crime groups than drug trafficking.

Look how bad it is now if someone socially engineers or phishes their way into getting your bank details. And then think how bad it will be if they get hold of this ID. It’ll be a fraudsters paradise. The crooks running the scam compound in Cambodia must be licking their lips.

Also why is Britain uniquely at risk of this problem? What is different about us?

Britain has always been an authoritarian nation.

History shows how little our government can be trusted, all the way through history. Look at all the people in the construction industry who were blacklisted just for being in a trade union. Look at the police infiltrating peaceful protest groups; look at how the police decided to rape* women just to get intelligence. Look at how a protest group gets designated as terrorists.

And at a local level, look at local authorities misusing their surveillance powers to check on people applying to schools. Look at how the private litter wardens will entrap people.

Britain is the land of Peterloo and nothing much has changed in the 200 years since.

Anyone who does trust the government in the UK simply isn’t paying attention.

* The police spies formed sexual relationships without telling the women who they are. It is a matter of settled law that rape by deception is rape. https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offences-chapter-6-consent

The prosecution must show that the defendant did the relevant act and that either of the circumstances in subsection 2 applies:

• The defendant intentionally deceived the complainant as to the “nature or the purpose of the act.” ( not the nature and quality of the act), or
• The defendant intentionally induced the complainant to consent by impersonation of a “person known personally to the complainant.”

In my humble opinion, taking the identity of a dead child, using it to infiltrate a protest group, before inducing women in that protest group to have sex with you, is rape.

 

[DarloRich]

You have more faith in a government IT project than I do.

And that’s before we consider how attractive it will be to fraudsters to get their hands on such a “gold standard” piece of ID, especially one held and used digitally. Online fraud already generates more revenue for organised crime groups than drug trafficking.

Look how bad it is now if someone socially engineers or phishes their way into getting your bank details. And then think how bad it will be if they get hold of this ID. It’ll be a fraudsters paradise. The crooks running the scam compound in Cambodia must be licking their lips.

Does this happen in any of the other European countries that have digital ID? If not why is Britain uniquely at risk of such compromise?

History shows how little our government can be trusted, all the way through history.

this is unhelpfully emotive nonsense. Could you answer the question raised?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Look at how the private litter wardens will entrap people.

Do they force people to drop litter or to fail to pick it up immediately if dropped by accident?

It's a vile habit and I am 100% in favour of strict enforcement on it. Just take it home, or if you don't want to take it home don't consume things that result in it.

The complaints I have heard about this are generally from bone idle smokers who think dropping their dog end on the floor is OK. Well, it isn't. Put it in an ashtray/bin or if where you smoke doesn't have one get a pouch or other container to take them home.

FWIW this sort of commercial enforcement could end tomorrow if people just didn't do the thing they are enforcing. See also private parking companies which are only in business because people park inappropriately all the time. If everyone didn't for a couple of months they would go bust, the odd genuine error wouldn't be enough to sustain them.

This is not an example of concerning Government overreach. It is an example of something being done about a disgusting, lazy habit which every right-minded person hates, which is a good thing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Does this happen in any of the other European countries that have digital ID? If not why is Britain uniquely at risk of such compromise?

Which other countries have digital ID, as opposed to a physical card you hold in your hand?

this is unhelpfully emotive nonsense. Could you answer the question raised?

I have given countless examples of why I think the Britain establishment will exploit any mandatory digital ID scheme. I don’t think Britain is alone in this: I gave the examples of East Germany and China. East Germany was, famously, in Europe.

So I shall flip the question around: why do you have faith that the UK government- despite all the previous- can be trusted with this?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2025 ==

Do they force people to drop litter or to fail to pick it up immediately if dropped by accident?

There are countless examples where they have entrapped people.

I also have no time for people who litter. But these wardens are paid per ticket, essentially, and so morals and ethics go out of the window.

See also: the hired goons at Crapita who enforce the TV Tax.

 

[DarloRich]

Which other countries have digital ID, as opposed to a physical card you hold in your hand?

None - yet. To be rolled out to all EU members in 2026 though. Call it 2027/28 by the time it slips a bit.

I have given countless examples of why I think the Britain establishment will exploit any mandatory digital ID scheme. I don’t think Britain is alone in this: I gave the examples of East Germany and China. East Germany was, famously, in Europe.

With respect you have offered an emotive response. Why is the UK at risk of this slip into authoritarianism when comparable 21st century European nations ( not a communist country that ceased to exist in October 1990!) are not and have not made that journey?

So I shall flip the question around: why do you have faith that the UK government- despite all the previous- can be trusted with this?

I don't have any more or less faith in the government over this than I have with any other item. I just don't subscribe to conspiracy or British exceptionalism. I do look at comparable European nations and see how things have worked there and wonder why we are different and what we can learn.

Why, for instance, should we not trust our government with this stuff but others in Europe have an identify card and don't seem to have collapsed as a nation and seem to enjoy similar freedoms to us?