Should we have a universal ID card?

[Tester]

Sounds like something a digital ID card would be perfect for...

Where is the like button?!

 

[Cloud Strife]

I think if we are going to have digital ID, then why not phrase out old style passports, and driving licences, and replace them with a card type ID card, that will be linked to your government id, one card, that police can scan, to check driving licence, restrictions, are you wanted, immigration status, and as your id at elections, a card terminal, you put your card in, it validates , and allows you to place your vote, all in the security of the booth, it does not need to be compulsory to keep on you, but it makes it easier if you do, and get asked by officialdom to prove your identity, same as we do already,

Generally speaking, this is exactly where the EU is heading. National ID cards will have a digital counterpart, and that ID (whether physical or digital) will be enough to confirm a wide range of things, not just identity. There won't be any need to lug around physical documents, it will all be available on your phone. We're not quite there yet, but 2030 should see cross-border acceptance of digital documents.

Passports will still be needed, but in practice, EU ID cards are becoming more and more accepted internationally. In Europe, they're only needed by EU citizens to go to Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and the UK, and Ukraine will probably allow entry on an EU ID card after the war ends. Given that these biometric ID cards are every bit as secure as passports and that the data from the ID card is often used to produce the passport in the first place, there's really no reason why they can't replace passports in time.

Or they will simply equip themselves with false ID or cloned ID or find alternative ways round it.

It's not that simple. For instance, in Poland, I can use my digital ID app to verify the identity of any person showing me a physical or digital ID. A false ID simply won't work, and as far as I know, there hasn't been a single case of a biometric ID card being cloned. If you believe that a biometric ID can be cloned, then a passport can be as well.

With regard to ID cards more specifically, I do support them, but am worried at the prospect of it being digital.

I'm not a fan of digital-only ID cards. It's excluding a large part of society for no reason whatsoever, and while my digital ID card makes life much easier, I'd still want the physical card as a backup just in case. Honestly, if you're going to the bother of creating digital ID cards, you might as well simply go the full hog and introduce ID cards for everyone. Agree with the EU to only allow travel to/from the UK with biometric ID cards and give everyone with a passport the ID card for free. You'll soon find that people far prefer to take their handy credit card sized piece of plastic abroad rather than a very expensive booklet that is easily destroyed.

One thing that strikes me is that there's really not a good reason to introduce an ID card. It eliminates identity theft, it provides a simple and easily understood method of verifying your identity, and companies can be certain that the bearer is who they say they are, so they don't need any additional documents. If I go to the bank to change my address, I take my ID card (or now the digital version). I don't need utility bills, I don't need birth certificates or any other nonsense, my ID card is enough to do absolutely everything needed.

For all the people worrying about security: is a biometric ID card really less secure than a birth certificate and utility bills, both of which can be easily forged?

 

[Tester]

Generally speaking, this is exactly where the EU is heading. National ID cards will have a digital counterpart, and that ID (whether physical or digital) will be enough to confirm a wide range of things, not just identity. There won't be any need to lug around physical documents, it will all be available on your phone. We're not quite there yet, but 2030 should see cross-border acceptance of digital documents.

Passports will still be needed, but in practice, EU ID cards are becoming more and more accepted internationally. In Europe, they're only needed by EU citizens to go to Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and the UK, and Ukraine will probably allow entry on an EU ID card after the war ends. Given that these biometric ID cards are every bit as secure as passports and that the data from the ID card is often used to produce the passport in the first place, there's really no reason why they can't replace passports in time.



It's not that simple. For instance, in Poland, I can use my digital ID app to verify the identity of any person showing me a physical or digital ID. A false ID simply won't work, and as far as I know, there hasn't been a single case of a biometric ID card being cloned. If you believe that a biometric ID can be cloned, then a passport can be as well.



I'm not a fan of digital-only ID cards. It's excluding a large part of society for no reason whatsoever, and while my digital ID card makes life much easier, I'd still want the physical card as a backup just in case. Honestly, if you're going to the bother of creating digital ID cards, you might as well simply go the full hog and introduce ID cards for everyone. Agree with the EU to only allow travel to/from the UK with biometric ID cards and give everyone with a passport the ID card for free. You'll soon find that people far prefer to take their handy credit card sized piece of plastic abroad rather than a very expensive booklet that is easily destroyed.

One thing that strikes me is that there's really not a good reason to introduce an ID card. It eliminates identity theft, it provides a simple and easily understood method of verifying your identity, and companies can be certain that the bearer is who they say they are, so they don't need any additional documents. If I go to the bank to change my address, I take my ID card (or now the digital version). I don't need utility bills, I don't need birth certificates or any other nonsense, my ID card is enough to do absolutely everything needed.

For all the people worrying about security: is a biometric ID card really less secure than a birth certificate and utility bills, both of which can be easily forged?

I think you missed a not there!

 

[Cloud Strife]

Correct! Thanks for spotting that

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think people in Russia (this was also the case in the former Soviet Union) are expected to show internal passports just to board a train.

This is also true of China. However there are benefits of provable named train tickets, most notably if you lose it or your phone ran out of battery you could retrospectively prove you had a ticket as you can with seasons. Thus, while I'd like to see it remain optional, I would like to see this use case introduced, as to me it would have no disadvantages (remember, every smartphone owner is tracked, so doing it with train tickets is a bit moot) and a big advantage of a choice of mitigating one of the issues with e-tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2025 ==

There was a chain of electronics stores in the UK during the early 1990s called Tandy, and I recall reading that you had to sign up to their mailing list and give your details in order to buy things from them.

I used to shop there a lot and this is not correct. You could refuse to give it, or give SW1A 1AA

There are physical shops where you can't shop without registering, though not many. It's mainly cash and carry places like Costco.

 

[Falcon1200]

In Hungary while walking around Budapest late at night, I was asked by some (polite and friendly) police to show my ID, which they have every right to in Hungary.

And this is what we want in the UK? Police stopping random people in the street (on what grounds?) and demanding ID?

Should this project ever come to fruition, what are the chances of;

It being delivered on schedule
It being delivered on budget
It not costing us anything, whether directly or indirectly
It being guaranteed unhackable and invulnerable
Finally, it actually having the desired effect?

I have my doubts on all points, and anyway Keir Starmer will probably U-turn (again) and scrap the idea when the multiple issues become apparent.

 

[1D54]

No threats as of yet for anyone who refuses to give details (online of course) of any information required for this project? Early days i suppose but it will happen.

 

[alex397]

And this is what we want in the UK? Police stopping random people in the street (on what grounds?) and demanding ID?

Not really, no. Though, playing devil’s advocate, if you have nothing to hide there’s nothing to fear - I do still see the argument against random stop checks though.
I was walking around an area with lots of drug dealers so that is perhaps a reason I was stopped. Hungary isn’t the best example though and they can be rather authoritarian with some things, I’m not sure how common random ID checks are in other countries.
I was just naming a benefit that I could think of that would benefit me. I’m sure there are some more useful benefits.

 

[DarloRich]

the right wing complaints about ID Cards are such nonsense. If Farage came out with an idea for ID cards the whoppers would whop themselves crazy saying what a great idea it was for stopping forigns doing evil forign fings.

it is that transparent.

 

[DarloRich]

And this is what we want in the UK? Police stopping random people in the street (on what grounds?) and demanding ID?

I don't understand this position. What is the problem? What do you think is going to happen? I already carry a driving license which i will show if requested. What is different with an ID card?

They have them in that notoriously non authoritarian country of Belgium. Why are they not suitable here? What is unique about Great Britain ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't understand this position. What is the problem? What do you think is going to happen?

I wouldn't like a situation where police could stop people at random and ask them to prove their identity just because they felt like with legal consequences if they failed to do so. That's a fundamental shift in our relationship with the police.

If someone was suspected of a fairly low level crime it might be a reasonable alternative to needing to arrest them, though.

Not every country with ID cards has compulsory carry, though. The Netherlands does, for example, but Germany does not.

 

[DarloRich]

I wouldn't like a situation where police could stop people at random and ask them to prove their identity just because they felt like. That's a fundamental shift in our relationship with the police.

is it? Is it REALLY? I wonder if many posters here have little actual knowledge of dealing/interacting with the police!

BTW: Is it a problem in Belgium? has their society fallen apart? Is it an issue in the Netherlands? The Dutch are quite liberal - surely they have kicked up a fuss...........

 

[Bletchleyite]

is it? Is it REALLY? I wonder if many posters here have little actual knowledge of dealing/interacting with the police!

I've never been stopped in the street and asked to prove my identity, no. I don't want that to start unless I am accused of a crime, which I hopefully won't be because I don't commit them. Unless I need to report a crime committed by someone else I don't really want any interaction with them to be honest, they are there to protect law abiding citizens, not hassle them for ID.

Is it a problem in Belgium? has their society fallen apart?

Society hasn't fallen apart in China but it doesn't mean I'd want their authoritarian approach here.

I'm not opposed to ID cards themselves, I am opposed to compulsory carry. It's not necessary and has mostly only disadvantages.

 

[DarloRich]

Society hasn't fallen apart in China but it doesn't mean I'd want their authoritarian approach here.

ok - but they aren't authoritarian in Belgium or Holland! I repeat my point!

I've never been stopped in the street and asked to prove my identity, no.

First question I have been asked every time the police have stopped me: "have you got any ID on you" - Now i can tell them to sod off but i want to get on with my day so just show my driving licence. How would an ID card be different?

I have never committed a crime ( speeding apart!) but have been stopped quite a few times. Sometimes for daring to go to a football match!

Have you ever been stopped? I think that governs responses to this topic. Many people have no idea what the police are like or how to interact with them.

they are there to protect law abiding citizens, not hassle them for ID.

Just to be clear: You think that introducing an ID card will lead to the police just stopping you in the street and demanding your card? That's the police that haven't got the resources to investigate actually crimes like burglary or street robbery? That police yeah?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you ever been stopped?

No, and I don't want to be unless I'm committing a crime, which I won't be. I dislike the idea of having to identify myself when I am doing nothing wrong in law and am not reasonably suspected of so doing.

I've been stopped by police precisely once ever, when driving a car where the insurance policy wasn't on the MID (as I'd only just taken it out). That was reasonable suspicion of a crime (though one was not being committed in the event) and was not unreasonable.

Just to be clear: You think that introducing an ID card will lead to the police just stopping you in the street and demanding your card? That's the police that haven't got the resources to investigate actually crimes like burglary or street robbery? That police yeah?

With compulsory carry yes, because otherwise you get no benefit from it - the benefit of compulsory carry (more relevant in mainland Europe) is being able to arrest and deport people who shouldn't be there, and to do that and comply with discrimination law that means you have to do frequent random checks even on people who are obviously born here. We don't however have to have compulsory carry. We can have ID cards without compulsory carry. We don't even have compulsory carry of driving licences at present! (Well, we sort of do, it's illegal not to carry it but is an absolute defence if produced within a certain period at a police station, but I wouldn't even want that for ID cards).

 

[jfollows]

I’ve been stopped by police once, in some kind of roadside check, which I believe they’re entitled to do, and when they asked me the purpose of my travel I told them - politely - it was none of their business and that was that.
I would not want to be required to show an ID card.
I once had a jumped up IBM employee ask me for proof of who I was before he’d let me in the building and I told him to get lost. I probably said that he could ask the person I was visiting to vouch for me, if he wanted, but he just huffed and puffed.

 

[DarloRich]

No, and I don't want to be unless I'm committing a crime, which I won't be. I dislike the idea of having to identify myself when I am doing nothing wrong in law and am not reasonably suspected of so doing.

But WHY? what are you worried about? Honestly I don't understand this line of thinking

BTW - you have lived a quiet life if you have never been stopped by the police! I have lost count of the number of stops I have had. I have never done anything wrong. I got stopped driving home the other weekend at 3am after dropping my mum at the airport. I think they were bored, ran the number plate and found it registered to a lady of an age more than mine who lived 300 miles away!

I told them what was going on, we had a chat and they checked my identify using my driving license and I was on my way

We don't however have to have compulsory carry. We can have ID cards without compulsory carry.

I agree! You could easily have a "producer" system like you used to have if the traffic police stopped you and wanted your driving license.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2025 ==

I’ve been stopped by police once, in some kind of roadside check, which I believe they’re entitled to do, and when they asked me the purpose of my travel I told them - politely - it was none of their business and that was that.

Why be like that? What are you worried about? I just don't understand that attitude. How would it impact you to say: " I have been to my friends and am going home" - what would the evil old bill do with that info?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But WHY? what are you worried about?

What's the benefit? It's a waste of my time and that of the officer.

Honestly I don't understand this line of thinking

You enjoy it?

BTW - you have lived a quiet life if you have never been stopped by the police! I have lost count of the number of stops I have had. I have never done anything wrong. I got stopped driving home the other weekend at 3am after dropping my mum at the airport. I think they were bored, ran the number plate and found it registered to a lady of an age more than mine who lived 300 miles away!

I'd say you have been stopped unusually often to be honest. Football may be the reason; while far less crime is associated to it these days old habits do die hard!

I told them what was going on, we had a chat and they checked my identify using my driving license and I was on my way

I agree! You could easily have a "producer" system like you used to have if the traffic police stopped you and wanted your driving license.

Again, I have no desire to waste my time taking my ID card to a police station because of an utterly pointless random stop.

Why be like that? What are you worried about? I just don't understand that attitude. How would it impact you to say: " I have been to my friends and am going home" - what would the evil old bill do with that info?

I don't think you get the principle that citizens should be entitled to privacy unless reasonably suspected of committing a criminal offence.

 

[DarloRich]

What's the benefit? It's a waste of my time and that of the officer.

I agree - that's why I don't think the police will just stop you in the street and demand your ID - they have better things to do

benefit - you can easily prove to them who you are and what you are up to and be on your way.

You enjoy it?

not at all but what is the issue that concerns you about proving your ID if asked?

I'd say you have been stopped unusually often to be honest. Football may be the reason; while far less crime is associated to it these days old habits do die hard!

Maybe - and that might be why I am a bit casual about this. I am more concerned about the security of the data on the "system" rather than a bored police constable asking me for the card outside the Kings Arms on a Friday night!

I don't think you get the principle that citizens should be entitled to privacy unless reasonably suspected of committing a criminal offence.

But in what way is your privacy infringed? The "state" already holds the data an ID card would cover. What's different? I bet Facebook or amazon know me better than the government ever will!

I repeat: does this principle not apply to Belgians or Dutch? Are we so expectational that we have some special standing that they lack?

 

[Bletchleyite]

not at all but what is the issue that concerns you about proving your ID if asked?

I can think something should not happen without having an actual concern about it.

But in what way is your privacy infringed? The "state" already holds the data an ID card would cover. What's different? I bet Facebook or amazon know me better than the government ever will!

I can be happy for commercial companies who I have a contract (which I can always exit) to do things I'm not happy with Governments doing. In the end Facebook and Amazon just want to make money by selling advertising/stuff. They don't have any other possible motivation, and if they "go bad" I can always stop using them and put in a GDPR right to deletion request.

I repeat: does this principle not apply to Belgians or Dutch? Are we so expectational that we have some special standing that they lack?

What we don't have is open borders (Schengen). Yes, there are the small boats, but the numbers are tiny compared to the numbers of people moving freely around Europe having entered it via borders that are in practice fairly porous.

You could ask the same of Germany and France, though, neither of which have compulsory carry despite being in the same Schengen zone.

However, a question - why do you think compulsory carry is necessary? Remember I'm not opposed to ID cards, just to compulsory carry (i.e. where I can be asked to prove my identity for no reason and can be penalised for not doing so).

 

[Razorblades]

Please may I just turn this on its head for a moment and ask a reasonable question?

If we had had digital ID cards in 2019, would any of the enthusiastic proponents on here care to speculate, within the bounds of reasonable likelihood, how life would have run differently during the course of 2020?

Would the situation have been better, worse or no different?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please may I just turn this on its head for a moment and ask a reasonable question?

If we had had digital ID cards in 2019, would any of the enthusiastic proponents on here care to speculate, within the bounds of reasonable likelihood, how life would have run differently during the course of 2020?

Would the situation have been better, worse or no different?

Probably little difference aside from that vaccine passports would probably have been integrated into it rather than separate.

 

[DarloRich]

You could ask the same of Germany and France, though, neither of which have compulsory carry despite being in the same Schengen zone.

I am agnostic about compulsory carry

Please may I just turn this on its head for a moment and ask a reasonable question?

If we had had digital ID cards in 2019, would any of the enthusiastic proponents on here care to speculate, within the bounds of reasonable likelihood, how life would have run differently during the course of 2020?

Would the situation have been better, worse or no different?

I don't understand the question - is this something about covid and vaccines?

What we don't have is open borders (Schengen).

my Belgian friends have had ID cards LONG before Schengen. I think they have existed in Belgium since pre WW1! They DO benefit from the kind of frictionless travel we can only dream about mind!

The card in Belgium contains (IRC) A photograph, name, sex, nationality, unique Belgian ID number ( they have some kind of national registration/nationality system that I don't understand), your signature and a fingerprint (on the digital version) - I don't think they even have an address any more which semes odd

I am not sure about the finger print bit ( which I would agree veers into the realms of privacy intrusion and I would have to think about a bit more deeply if proposed here) but the rest seems like my driving license. All adults in Belgium have to carry ID and present it to the authorities when asked. Belgians use their ID card.

They say to me that it makes dealing with the government much easier in everything from prescriptions to benefits and banking. They can even use the card details to sign official documents on line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

my Belgian friends have had ID cards LONG before Schengen.

Dutch compulsory carry is post-Schengen and was I believe specifically stated to be about making sure everyone there should be. I believe it was brought in in the early 2000s.

 

[signed]

I am not sure about the finger print bit ( which I would agree veers into the realms of privacy intrusion and I would have to think about a bit more deeply if proposed here) but the rest seems like my driving license

All EU cards since 2021 have fingerprints in the chip. Some countries save the fingerprints as well to a database, but that is of course objectable without any issues.

 

[DarloRich]

Dutch compulsory carry is post-Schengen and was I believe specifically stated to be about making sure everyone there should be. I believe it was brought in in the early 2000s.

A good point - i will ask if Belgium was compulsory carry BEFORE Schengen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2025 ==

All EU cards since 2021 have fingerprints in the chip. Some countries save the fingerprints as well to a database, but that is of course objectable without any issues.

i am uncertain on holding data not routinely collected by the state. I think i would be against capturing fingerprint data. We don't need to make it to easy for the police

 

[Razorblades]

Probably little difference aside from that vaccine passports would probably have been integrated into it rather than separate.

And that's where all this leads. Perhaps 'Darlo Rich' would like to comment, now he's able to make the link between Digital ID and health surveillance and state control.

 

[Falcon1200]

I don't understand this position. What is the problem? What do you think is going to happen? I already carry a driving license which i will show if requested. What is different with an ID card?

The Police, when they have the power to demand ID cards, will undoubtedly use it. What if you are not carrying yours, for whatever reason?

First question I have been asked every time the police have stopped me

I have only ever been stopped by the Police once - Over 40 years ago! Walking early one morning to my first job on the railway. Will stops happen more often when ID cards become a thing - Without doubt.

I agree - that's why I don't think the police will just stop you in the street and demand your ID

I admire your trust, but they most certainly will. They certainly seem to have stopped you an awful lot! (For no good reason, I am sure).

 

[75A]

Completely agree.

 

[75A]

Police, what are they?
Here in Northern Ireland they only exist in Belfast & Derry, the only time we ever see them is on the Television News.