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Should we have a universal ID card?

Should the UK have a digital ID scheme

  • Yes I think so

    Votes: 91 47.9%
  • No I don’t think so

    Votes: 92 48.4%
  • I’m not sure

    Votes: 7 3.7%

  • Total voters
    190
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FinsburyPark

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As for preventing expansion of surveillance....... it's coming anyway.



We have always been the most surveilled country going.

After all, George Orwell was from here.

And we have one of the most, if not the highest number of security camera per person.

That said I think the Digital ID will enable them more.

Opposing Digital ID won't roll back already existing surveillance, even if the opposition ever does manage to overturn the plans for Digital ID, but it will prevent yet another avenue for yet more surveillance on top of what exists now.
 
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Bevan Price

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If you read what I said, it was that a recognised card that could serve as secure ID if you don't have a passport or drivers licence.

It could help prevent all sorts of fraud when applying for loans, mortgages, opening accounts and so on.

I don't see why you'd need to carry one for any other reason.
And how long will it take the criminal community to forge (almost) perfect identity cards ?
 

brad465

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Having just seen the poll, the forum makes the Brexit vote look resounding.

(At time of writing, only one vote in it with 61 Yes vs 60 No)
 

AM9

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And how long will it take the criminal community to forge (almost) perfect identity cards ?
Hasn't it already been mentioned in this thread, that any new major new id system would just have an id number that that matches a record held within a secure system? The person expecting verification of the presenter wouldn't get one if the number is forged (and wrong).
 

Bevan Price

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Hasn't it already been mentioned in this thread, that any new major new id system would just have an id number that that matches a record held within a secure system? The person expecting verification of the presenter wouldn't get one if the number is forged (and wrong).
Sorry. But with over 600 posts in this thread, I did not have time to check if I had missed some....

Personally I might accept a card ID, or a computerised number ID, but I would decline anything they tried to force me to carry everywhere. (And the battery on my ageing mobile phone cannot be trusted to last for a full day.)
 

ninja-lewis

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Our physical (eurpopean) ID cards have the same safety features as our passports.
And digital IDs are yet more secure due to cryptographic and biometric verification. The fake NHS Covid Passes were scams - the fake passes didn't work under proper verification checks.
 

FinsburyPark

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Our physical (eurpopean) ID cards have the same safety features as our passports.
I honestly dont know why UK Gov didnt go for something like this instead of Digital IDs. Yes there are always Brits who will object to any ID card, while more or less using a driving licence as an ID card anyway, a touch of irony in that one :)

But the international travel benefits of the EU/EFTA ID cards actually provide actual benefits.

While they are most commonly used inside the EU and EFTA, some non EU countries will accept EU/EFTA ID cards as well, under some exception. I think Turkey will accept Romanian ones for group tours only and Albania as well.

Since post full roll out of EES there will be no physical passport stamping, we might be able to get the EU to accept them. Also it will be a condition of entry if we ever join the EU again anyway.
 

ninja-lewis

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I honestly dont know why UK Gov didnt go for something like this instead of Digital IDs. Yes there are always Brits who will object to any ID card, while more or less using a driving licence as an ID card anyway, a touch of irony in that one :)
It's the cack handed way in which the Government have conflated two separate concepts.

Digital ID is to enable digital versions of all sorts of existing identities - driving licences, veterans cards, passports etc - in the same way that Apple/Google Wallets are digital versions of debit/credit cards. Digital ID has several advantages over physical IDs:

1. More security: cryptographic and biometric verification as well as voiding the need to make, share and store photocopies of full identities instead of a token that proves the identity was successfully verified.
2. Greater privacy: by being able to share only the attributes necessary for that transaction e.g. "Over 18: yes/no" instead of full birthday, name and address on a physical driving licence.
3. Useable online
4. Meeting the needs of current and future generations: many younger people don't carry physical wallets or cards anymore except their driving licence or passport as they are also the ones who most often need to prove an attribute of their identity e.g. buying age restricted products.

It's something that has been in development for several years and was announced at the the beginning of the year. The UK has been well behind other countries but roll out has now started (with the Veterans Card last month and driving licences in the new year).

Separately and more recently, there is the concept of introducing a new national ID to address issues with using existing identity documents for purposes they're not really intended for:

a. Passports/driving licences can be taken away for various reasons (e.g. driving disqualification, football banning orders)
b. Existing identities being used for purposes they're not intended for e.g. employers incorrectly accepting national insurance numbers as proof of Right to Work
c. Not everyone has a photo ID. A free basic ID can be made free as a minimum ID for everyone while charges remain for passports, driving licences etc.

Digital ID enables the latter to be introduced a significantly lower cost: don't expect many physical ID cards to be issued as we jump straight to digital IDs just as Europe is transitioning their physical IDs to digital IDs now.
 

martin butler

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I think a time will come when a government imposes a digital ID card, and it will be done to control the narrative, using words like invasion, need to control numbers etc, and it will be a need to show system, when public misinformation reaches a point where people start to demand proof of others right to be here, of course, to be fair, it will need everyone to have a card, not just those deemed undesirables,
 

AM9

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Sorry. But with over 600 posts in this thread, I did not have time to check if I had missed some....

Personally I might accept a card ID, or a computerised number ID, but I would decline anything they tried to force me to carry everywhere. (And the battery on my ageing mobile phone cannot be trusted to last for a full day.)
maybe you should check earlier because it has been stated that there has been no mention of com pulsion to carry. The 'papers please' conspiracy theory has been continually weaponised in the arguments of objectors without any evidence. Official identity has been established in several western European countries without this myth happening.
 

jon0844

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I think a time will come when a government imposes a digital ID card, and it will be done to control the narrative, using words like invasion, need to control numbers etc, and it will be a need to show system, when public misinformation reaches a point where people start to demand proof of others right to be here, of course, to be fair, it will need everyone to have a card, not just those deemed undesirables,

If people vote Reform, that sort of dystopian future may well become reality. It won't matter if we have digital or physical ID cards already. You're talking about a rogue Government, and the people against ID cards who are also supportive of the likes of Farage (who I have no doubt would U-turn and support ID cards once in power, for the reasons you mention) are likely going to make such a horrible future a reality.

As said above, ID cards exist elsewhere without people being stopped on the street and forced to show their ID.
 

martin butler

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If people vote Reform, that sort of dystopian future may well become reality. It won't matter if we have digital or physical ID cards already. You're talking about a rogue Government, and the people against ID cards who are also supportive of the likes of Farage (who I have no doubt would U-turn and support ID cards once in power, for the reasons you mention) are likely going to make such a horrible future a reality.

As said above, ID cards exist elsewhere without people being stopped on the street and forced to show their ID.
ID cards in themselves are not a problem, It's the use some will want to use them for, that is, look back to South Africa, during white rule, did non whites have to carry papers allowing them to be in white towns to work? and before that, in Nazi Germany, when peoples had to wear badges to identify that they were jewish, or gay ,just for being who they were.
 

jon0844

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Exactly. If we allow a Government to take power that wants to do any of those examples, we're probably all screwed even if we didn't have ID cards.

Many countries are moving further to the right and seeing certain people or groups as the problem - and that feeds into the desire to do all sorts of nasty things. We don't really need to keep looking back to Germany in the 1930s or South Africa, as plenty of examples can be seen right now in the USA.
 

nilvaj395

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I honestly dont know why UK Gov didnt go for something like this instead of Digital IDs. Yes there are always Brits who will object to any ID card, while more or less using a driving licence as an ID card anyway, a touch of irony in that one :)

But the international travel benefits of the EU/EFTA ID cards actually provide actual benefits.

While they are most commonly used inside the EU and EFTA, some non EU countries will accept EU/EFTA ID cards as well, under some exception. I think Turkey will accept Romanian ones for group tours only and Albania as well.

Since post full roll out of EES there will be no physical passport stamping, we might be able to get the EU to accept them. Also it will be a condition of entry if we ever join the EU again anyway.
Honestly, an issue for under-17's in this country tends to be proving age, as you can't get a driving license, and you might not have or want to take a passport outside with you. So things that you need to prove age for 16+ you just can't do. This is something that PASS cards can help with if you go through the process of obtaining ones, but the amount of second glances and suspicion you get (or outright refusal when they are not allowed to refuse one that is legit and valid) does happen. I have also seen people who obtain a learner's license with no intention of learning, just because they need one for ID purposes, which seems like a silly workaround and unnecessary work on the DVLA's part to get an ID that you know won't be refused in some places like a PASS card might.

A physical ID card would be very helpful because it can just feel weird to take your driving license (or god forbid your passport) outside to everything. A driving license is more easy if something happens to it than a passport, but you ideally don't want to be replacing either. This however, should be an entirely voluntary affair, and the scale of which Digital ID is being imposed on us as a 'voluntary' whereas the real message centres around you eventually requiring it for any sort of work is scary.

This is being done much to the same tune as the Online Safety Act where they propose a problem and a solution to said problem, but it's really just a great opportunity for them to take away the freedoms of the wider public for little to no real-world benefit. People who want to illegally work are going to illegally work, Digital ID or not. If that were not the case now, then the high street would not be littered with so many of these already illegal or sketchy shops. They can deal with them right now if they wanted to but they won't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

That petition created a parliamentary debate on the subject

Definately one of the more lively debates resulting from a petition, thats for sure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

We have always been the most surveilled country going.

After all, George Orwell was from here.

And we have one of the most, if not the highest number of security camera per person.

That said I think the Digital ID will enable them more.

Opposing Digital ID won't roll back already existing surveillance, even if the opposition ever does manage to overturn the plans for Digital ID, but it will prevent yet another avenue for yet more surveillance on top of what exists now.
Don't forget we are now being happily scanned with Live Facial Recognition (LFR) without consent or any laws to protect us, with some being falsely accused due to it. Just another step in the name of 'safety'. The way it is being done is in a way where if you disagree with it, it looks like you just have to avoid going about the LFR area, either government or business (often vague and sometimes in essential shops etc) when it's being carried out, which very much feels like forcing people to comply as they have no choice. But, that is for another thread.
 
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martin butler

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The thing is this, with any ID system, voluntary or not, is , it will need humans to enforce it, and how its enacted, depends on what the type of person is who carries out the check, it could a polite, request, or an officialdom on steroids "papers please" approach, and I would bet, that it would depend on the ethnicity of the person being asked, imagine giving a knuckle dragging reform voting Tommie type that power?
 

nilvaj395

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The thing is this, with any ID system, voluntary or not, is , it will need humans to enforce it, and how its enacted, depends on what the type of person is who carries out the check, it could a polite, request, or an officialdom on steroids "papers please" approach, and I would bet, that it would depend on the ethnicity of the person being asked, imagine giving a knuckle dragging reform voting Tommie type that power?
Exactly, this Digital ID quite literally is a canary in a coalmine for authoritarianism. There is no other reason for the Government to want to pass it. If they wanted to deal with the root cause they're claiming (i.e immigration) they could do that right now if they funded and managed things properly under what we have now, without compromising the right to privacy and without forcing everyone to sign up for a digital app just to work.

And like you said, it would almost always be disproportionality used against people of a different ethnicity, or opinion, or an other factor, whatever the individual searching it or government thinks.

Imagine with a click of a button they could use LFR on the Digital ID database and then you pretty much have no privacy anymore. Do you want to protest? Well LFR (which is also equally unregulated) can be used to know who has been there along with their names, address and employment information or probably health information, even if you have done nothing wrong. You could also equally be falsely accused of a crime because they scanned the Digital ID database and got a wrong match (you). Which I am sure will not be exploited in any way by an individual, organisation or government (sarcasm).
 
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AlterEgo

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Exactly, this Digital ID quite literally is a canary in a coalmine for authoritarianism. There is no other reason for the Government to want to pass it. If they wanted to deal with the root cause they're claiming (i.e immigration) they could do that right now if they funded and managed things properly under what we have now, without compromising the right to privacy and without forcing everyone to sign up for a digital app just to work.

And like you said, it would almost always be disproportionality used against people of a different ethnicity, or opinion, or an other factor, whatever the individual searching it or government thinks.

Imagine with a click of a button they could use LFR on the Digital ID database and then you pretty much have no privacy anymore. Do you want to protest? Well LFR (which is also equally unregulated) can be used to know who has been there along with their names, address and employment information or probably health information, even if you have done nothing wrong. You could also equally be falsely accused of a crime because they scanned the Digital ID database and got a wrong match (you). Which I am sure will not be exploited in any way by an individual, organisation or government (sarcasm).
What, in your view, makes Britain different to other European countries which have physical or Digital ID without being totalitarian states?
 

martin butler

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What, in your view, makes Britain different to other European countries which have physical or Digital ID without being totalitarian states?
Peoples state of mind, Totalitarianism needs people to actually believe they are under attack, that power, and loss of their own rights is the price they have to pay for security Those European countries that have a system of Digital ID have strong democracies and are able to push back against media that is trying to ferment unrest.
 

nilvaj395

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Peoples state of mind, Totalitarianism needs people to actually believe they are under attack, that power, and loss of their own rights is the price they have to pay for security Those European countries that have a system of Digital ID have strong democracies and are able to push back against media that is trying to ferment unrest.
Exactly this, the UK in comparison also has always had a very slight minority of people that push votes in the favour of usually the most anti-freedom option even if it is bad (Brexit is a great example of this). We quite frankly vote or have a minority that votes ourselves into anything regardless of it's known risks because they're convinced of the narrative in the media or due to really warped opinions (or both).

This is exactly what led to the OSA being passed, because Brits are completely apathethic or even misled about the very laws that open the door to exploitative use cases and the reduction of freedom. Many more Brits only began to care about the OSA when it started being used to id-gate what they actually cared about, like their political content / views. But too late as the law is already passed and good luck getting it changed or repealed because our petition system is only the illusion of democracy.

I have no issue with an Government ran ID scheme, I actually said many reasons as to why it's a good thing in regards to not needing a driving license or passport for ID, but they are making it with the long term plan to be mandatory and a requirement for jobs or just existing in society. And it will be just another data point open to exploitation, malicious usage and hacking. Even if this government doesn't do it, a more right wing or extreme party will absolutely use such laws and tools exploitatively, knowing that Brits are totally apathetic and powerless to do anything to stop it.
 
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AlterEgo

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Those European countries that have a system of Digital ID have strong democracies and are able to push back against media that is trying to ferment unrest.
Are they? In what way do they "push back against the media"?

Do "strong democracies" have governments which "push back against the media"?
 

Cloud Strife

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Those European countries that have a system of Digital ID have strong democracies and are able to push back against media that is trying to ferment unrest.

Um, no. Poland doesn't have a strong democracy, for a start. It's a very fragile one, and it only just held because of the incompetence of the last government.

As said above, ID cards exist elsewhere without people being stopped on the street and forced to show their ID.

I've never been stopped and asked to show ID in Poland in nearly 20 years. It happened twice to me in the UK between the age of 18-22, once for singing loudly in the park late at night with my friends and a second time 'because you're hanging out in the park at night'. Well, yes, it was the middle of summer on a very warm evening and we were drinking beer, which isn't a crime.

And how long will it take the criminal community to forge (almost) perfect identity cards ?

This shows a staggering ignorance about how identity cards work nowadays. If I want to verify someone's identity card, I can use the Polish mObywatel service which confirms if an ID card is valid or not. Combined with the digital ID card, it's foolproof, and forging won't help in the slightest because I can see both the real-time digital ID and the issued physical ID card.

The more interesting thing is just how easy it is to forge documentation that shows that you're a British citizen. Take my wife: she has no discernible accent, she sounds like she comes from somewhere in the SE of England, and she practically lives in the Anglosphere due to work and personal life. If she had a fake birth certificate that proclaimed her to be born to British parents in the UK, it's very unlikely that anyone would actually know any better, especially if she travelled in and out of the CTA through Dublin on her Polish documents. Without any sort of ID system, she can simply produce a forged birth certificate along with her NI number and employers will be none the wiser.

Imagine the police stop her, and she says that she doesn't have a passport or driving licence. She gives her details, but even her name is just a normal British name to anyone checking. The police are effectively unable to verify themselves if she's actually a Brit or not, and the combination of a birth certificate + utility bills is ridiculously insecure.

I'm not saying that we would do it, but the point remains: the UK has no effective way of knowing who someone really is. Of course, a Nigerian immigrant with a thick accent is going to be pulled aside, but who is going to question a person with a London-ish middle class accent with a British name about their nationality? Londoners would be able to tell that something is off, but for instance, I couldn't tell you as a Scot as to the difference between an Essex, North London, South London and Kent accent. For me, it's all Laaahndan and that's it.

While they are most commonly used inside the EU and EFTA, some non EU countries will accept EU/EFTA ID cards as well, under some exception. I think Turkey will accept Romanian ones for group tours only and Albania as well.

They're valid for travel throughout Europe, with the exception of travel to the UK, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. You can even enter Gibraltar with them.
 

gswindale

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I have no issue with an Government ran ID scheme, I actually said many reasons as to why it's a good thing in regards to not needing a driving license or passport for ID, but they are making it with the long term plan to be mandatory and a requirement for jobs or just existing in society. And it will be just another data point open to exploitation, malicious usage and hacking. Even if this government doesn't do it, a more right wing or extreme party will absolutely use such laws and tools exploitatively, knowing that Brits are totally apathetic and powerless to do anything to stop it.
Would that be the right-wing party that is currently vehemently opposed to the proposed scheme?

This is part of the problem with the British take on democracy - the 2 big parties just oppose each other by default when in opposition because they must be seen to be taking the opposing view, rather than actually being pro-active about what might actually be best for the country, and hence when power changes hands, the view points automatically swap over, so today, if Kier said the sky was Blue, Kemi would no doubt claim it to be green and then when the government switches, Kemi would agree it is blue and now Kier would insist it is green.

I have to say that I am really surprised that Reform/Conservatives seem so opposed to this scheme from what I've seen in the media as, to me, it sounds like something that they would be really keen on...
 

nilvaj395

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Would that be the right-wing party that is currently vehemently opposed to the proposed scheme?

This is part of the problem with the British take on democracy - the 2 big parties just oppose each other by default when in opposition because they must be seen to be taking the opposing view, rather than actually being pro-active about what might actually be best for the country, and hence when power changes hands, the view points automatically swap over, so today, if Kier said the sky was Blue, Kemi would no doubt claim it to be green and then when the government switches, Kemi would agree it is blue and now Kier would insist it is green.

I have to say that I am really surprised that Reform/Conservatives seem so opposed to this scheme from what I've seen in the media as, to me, it sounds like something that they would be really keen on...
You're so correct, I'm so tired of it. All of the parties against would do the exact same thing if in power, much to then Labour/Others being on the criticising end.

I feel like this back and forth has done so much harm as well, as the Tories would pass a law already pretty bad and unpopular and then Labour would come in and only make it worse, or vice versa. It feels like no matter what you get youre always going to get the same outcome.

In general the two party system is extremely tiring and I wish both Labour and Tories never ran a smear campaign against proportional representation back in the day otherwise we would now have a much fairer voting and representation system.
 

gswindale

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The problem back in the day was that the Lib Dems wanted a change in the voting system I believe, but the agreed referendum deliberately asked the wrong question, which was would you prefer this proposed system or the existing system. They should have asked should we keep the existing or should we investigate alternatives.

The alternative system proposed had been deliberately designed to be unpopular with the public in order to retain the status quo.

It's similar to the Brexit fiasco really - the question should not have been Stay or Leave - it should have been do we stay and try to improve the EU to our liking or do we investigate how we can leave.
 

AlterEgo

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Without any sort of ID system, she can simply produce a forged birth certificate along with her NI number and employers will be none the wiser.
If she was born outside the UK her NI number will ring alarm bells because it will probably start with an S.
 

sor

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And how long will it take the criminal community to forge (almost) perfect identity cards ?
About as difficult as it is to forge a perfect British passport. They might get close enough on the actual document, but the embedded chip contains data that can't be forged without the passport agency itself being compromised (in which case they could just order "genuine" fakes). That chip is what is being read when you go through border controls and the agent is making polite smalltalk with you. The Blair era ID cards had the same chip and data and that's why it was valid for intra EU travel.

Digital ID would take it a step further because those with a need to check would have access to a government system. They could then scan your phone or physical "digital ID" and receive immediate confirmation that it is legitimate. Employers would not be duped by fake British passports anymore, as they won't currently read the chip
 
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