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Should there be a new terminal in Liverpool?

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Bevan Price

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As a former resident of an area served by the Northern Line, I don't agree at all. Most people want to go to Liverpool Central (well, central Liverpool :) ), and of those who connect onwards to London, Manchester etc people are generally happy to take the walk from Lime St to Central above ground which barely takes 10 minutes (or use the Loop, but it only saves any time if you use the lifts at both ends). Personally, I'd take the Merseyrail Electrics "service package" over anything any of the City Lines get - it really is very popular and well-regarded these days.

As a St. Helens resident, I would not welcome that change. In addition, Northern lines interface with other routes at Wigan, Warrington, plus Manchester to Earlestown; in consequnce, delays of several minutes are not uncommon. Even that smallish level of lateness would be enough to cause chaos if added to the existing levels of service at Liverpool Central. Even if Central was enlarged, you would still get additional movement conflicts at Sandhills and/or Walton Jn.

Moreover as commented previously, having our existing trains replaced by the new "metro-style" stock would almost certainly lead to a big reduction in seating capacity.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Re-building and re-opening Woodside would be a far cheaper option. Euston - Chester services could be extended to provide the additional London capacity, much quicker through services to North Wales could be provided rather than via the circuitous Halton curve route, along with alternative services to the Midlands and South-West via Wrexham and Shrewsbury. Woodside being so close to Hamilton Square virtually has the same connectivity to Merseyrail that LIme Street has. Admittedly it wouldn't provide much additional space for North and East bound traffic but a lot of the required route is still there to enable it to be done relatively cheaply as opposed to some mammoth tunnelling projects below the city streets.

That's an interesting idea. I can see your point that the Wirral has enough population in its own right to perhaps justify some longer distance services going there rather than Liverpool. However, a big problem is that - unlike Liverpool - the Wirral doesn't really have any one single centre that a high proportion of people would be going to, and that would make it harder to justify a terminus station there. Birkenhead probably comes closest to that, but is still nothing like the centre of Liverpool.

I can also see that providing much faster services to Chester would be very useful. But the trouble is, if getting those services to Liverpool requires changing to the existing Wirral line, that to some extent negates the benefit for a very high proportion of passengers. The other problem is, it only stands a chance of working well if the terminus where you change to get to Liverpool has tube-like frequencies. Hamilton Square does, and is close to where any Woodside station would go, but is still enough of a walk to make changing unattractive. In another post, you mentioned Rock Ferry as an alternative terminus. That could give convenient cross-platform interchange to get to Liverpool, but the Wirral line there doesn't have anything like tube-like frequencies. And it's basically in a residential area - would be pretty disadvantaged as a terminus site because almost no commuters would actually want to go there. Any longer-distance train arriving there would basically have to offload all its passengers onto the Wirral trains, and I'm not sure those metro trains could cope!

Another problem is, to run fast trains to Chester, you'd probably need to 4-track at least as far as Hooton, maybe all the way to Chester, depending how many fast services you want to run. Looking on Google maps, space to do that looks pretty tight, and you'd probably end up rebuilding every station along that line to do it.

Further, at Chester itself you hit the problem that the line comes in facing the wrong way to get to Wales, or to Wrexham, or any of the places that it'd make geographic sense to get to from the Wirral rather than central Liverpool! You're facing the right way for trains to Crewe/Frodsham/Knutsford, but those are exactly the places that it'd make far more sense to run to from Lime Street! (Talking geographically for Knutsford. I realise you can't actually do that on current infrastructure).

So overall, it's an innovative idea, but I think you'd have trouble making it work and getting it to be worth the investment.
 

Mutant Lemming

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1. , the once frequent Woodside to Liverpool commuter ferry is now just an hourly service mainly for tourists.

n.

Yes I forgot to mention the new improved ferry services connecting Woodside with the Pier Head, the Airport, New Brighton, Southport and Blackpool.
 

Chester1

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Yes I forgot to mention the new improved ferry services connecting Woodside with the Pier Head, the Airport, New Brighton, Southport and Blackpool.

What?! Pure fantasy. Why an earth would people change from train onto the ferry at Woodside to go to Pier Head or New Brighton? You seem fixated with restoring the rail network to its previous geography. Numerous terminals where the result of rival companies setting up their own lines. Merseyside benefited from a rationalisation of lines to create a interconnected underground style network. Lime Street is the only main lineline term that Merseyside needs, although it does need an upgrade.
 

Mutant Lemming

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What?! Pure fantasy. Why an earth would people change from train onto the ferry at Woodside to go to Pier Head or New Brighton? You seem fixated with restoring the rail network to its previous geography. Numerous terminals where the result of rival companies setting up their own lines. Merseyside benefited from a rationalisation of lines to create a interconnected underground style network. Lime Street is the only main lineline term that Merseyside needs, although it does need an upgrade.

I was being a tad flippant with the ferry suggestion . The river as a transport artery kind of died off once the bus terminals at the landing stages all disappeared (along with through buses and improved rail links).
Although there may have been potential for an airport > Albert Dock service before they concentrated the terminal buildings closer to Speke. It seems people just don't like (or maybe weren't encouraged to like) ferry travel. A Liverpool to Blackpool ferry would be quicker than rail - although the Southport > Blackpool service foundered even with a 15 minute journey time.

As for Woodside - it would not take a great deal to build a single island platform for an hourly Woodside > Rock Ferry > Chester> Euston service. As a borough the Wirral has a greater population than Coventry.
As the whole thing these days is about cost then Woodside would be the cheapest option to provide the Western half of Merseyside (Liverpool City Region or whatever) with additional rail capacity to London.
 

geoffk

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As for Woodside - it would not take a great deal to build a single island platform for an hourly Woodside > Rock Ferry > Chester> Euston service. As a borough the Wirral has a greater population than Coventry.
As the whole thing these days is about cost then Woodside would be the cheapest option to provide the Western half of Merseyside (Liverpool City Region or whatever) with additional rail capacity to London.
Unless the four tracks were reinstated south of Rock Ferry, you would have the situation where Merseyrail shared tracks with long-distance trains. Being a self-contained network is one of the main selling points of Merseyrail. I was on the line yesterday and four tracks certainly went as far south as Hooton and as far as Ledsham on the Chester line.
 

DynamicSpirit

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As for Woodside - it would not take a great deal to build a single island platform for an hourly Woodside > Rock Ferry > Chester> Euston service. As a borough the Wirral has a greater population than Coventry.
As the whole thing these days is about cost then Woodside would be the cheapest option to provide the Western half of Merseyside (Liverpool City Region or whatever) with additional rail capacity to London.

But would it serve much purpose when most of the population of the Wirral could get to Lime Street using Merseyrail just as easily as they could get to Woodside? You'd save 7 minutes on the train getting from Hamilton Square to Lime Street, and lose far more than that time because of the inevitably slower journey to London from Woodside (as well as having to walk from Hamilton Square to Woodside). The only people who'd benefit would be people who can easily get to Rock Ferry and commuters between Birkenhead/Rock Ferrry and Chester (very marginally if it's only 1tph).
 

Bevan Price

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Is it even possible to reinstate Birkenhead Woodside? If so, could there be a direct service to Snow Hill and London Old Oak Common like there was previously?

Yes - but would a Class 158 (or 150) fit on the Wolverhampton / Birmingham tram system ??
 

edwin_m

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Is it not possible to convert it to allow both tram and a passenger service like they are planning the South Staffordshire line for freight and trams or make modifications to the system to facilitate it.
Trying to fit a fast train service down the tramway would be far more difficult than trying to fit one down Merseyrail!
 

Jorge Da Silva

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https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/business/rail-boss-says-21-minute-15290129

The man charged with creating a new high-speed link that could get passengers from Liverpool to Manchester in 21 minutes says it WILL happen - and that it could help bring "decades" of economic growth to Liverpool.


Transport for the North is pushing for the building of "Northern Powerhouse Rail" (NPR) to allow high-speed travel across the North.
It would see a new line built from a new Liverpool city centre station to Manchester Airport, Manchester city centre and beyond.

As well as giving Liverpool faster links to Manchester, Leeds and other Northern cities, the line would also connect to HS2 - meaning the city would also get faster high-speed services to London.

If the NPR plan and HS2 went ahead journey times from Liverpool to London would fall to around an hour and a quarter, down from 1 hour 33 under the current HS2 plan and more than two hours at the moment.


0_AHR_LEC_161018_npr_01JPG.jpg

A graphic showing the impact of "Northern Powerhouse Rail", produced by Transport for the North (Image: Liverpool ECHO)
The project would cost billions of pounds and needs Government backing. TfN is preparing a detailed masterplan to prove to ministers that the scheme would be worth an investment of more than £24bn.

It today released its latest research into the boost NPR could give local economies and has called on business leaders to back the plans.

Today Tim Wood, programme director for NPR at TfN, told the ECHO the line was a "once in a lifetime" opportunity. And he said he was confident work could start as early as 2024.
He told the ECHO: "This will put 1.95m people actually within 90 minutes' travel time of the centre of Liverpool.

"It would put an extra 100,000 businesses within one hour of the city centre. And there would be 46% more people within an hour of the centre of Liverpool.

"It’s a major transformation for the north."

And asked if NPR could ever become reality, Mr Wood said: "It is definitely going to happen, as will HS2 Phase 2 (from Birmingham to Manchester).

He said: £24bn is their estimate. We know it will cost a little bit more than that.

“But it would all be funded by the £50 per person extra for the next 30 years.

"We receive £100 per person from the Government for transport. That’s what we want to go up by another £50 per person. And we are asking the Government for that. That would fund our projects - smart ticketing, highways, and NPR."


0_AHR_LEC_161018_npr_02JPG.jpg

Transport for the North is promoting the benefits of the proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail scheme (Image: Liverpool ECHO)
TfN calls it Northern Powerhouse Rail but others - particularly Labour politicians wary of using George Osborne’s phrase Northern Powerhouse - prefer to call it Crossrail for the North.

Mr Wood said all 11 Local Enterprise Partnerships on the route - including the Liverpool City Region LEP - had signed up to support it.

The high-speed rail line is also being backed by Liverpool city region metro mayor Steve Rotheram.

He said: “England is the most politically centralised and economically unbalanced country in the Western world and a large part of that imbalance has been caused by decades of underinvestment in the North’s transport infrastructure, by governments of all political hues.

“Delivering Crossrail for the North, as I call it, is a vital part of addressing that underinvestment and has the potential to deliver a huge boost to the economy of the Liverpool City Region. Northern Powerhouse Rail must be delivered in its entirety, with a new station for Liverpool, a new twin-track rail line between Liverpool and Manchester, and full connectivity into the HS2 network.”

New City Centre station?
I am assuming this will be under the existing station, but we shall find out very soon when the business case is finally outlined.
 
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Jorge Da Silva

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https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/24000-jobs-15bn-huge-benefits-15939185

The HS2 project set to transform mainline rail travel across the country will deliver a series of exciting benefits for Liverpool, it has been claimed.

The Northern Powerhouse Rail (previously HS3) is a planned high-speed rail link connecting Liverpool to Manchester and Leeds.

It will connect Liverpool to the currently under construction HS2, a high speed rail link between London and Manchester expected to open in 2033.

That would mean Liverpool-Manchester journey times of approximately 22 minutes, with the Liverpool to London journey taking around an hour and 25 minutes.

There will be a number of others benefits in addition to shortened journey times, revealed at the Liverpool City Region combined authority's transport committee on Thursday.
They were:
1. A total of 2m more people could reach Liverpool within 90 minutes. That will also mean 10m more people have access to four or more northern cities within 90 minutes - a five-fold increase.

2. There will be a predicted £15bn economic growth.

3. It could create 24,000 additional jobs...

4. ... and 11,000 new homes needed to support a growing region.

5. There will be 3.6m additional visitors to the region each year.

6. It will mean a new city centre train station for Liverpool, with further details to be announced shortly. - and further upgrades to Liverpool Lime Street Station.

7. As previously reported, the move would also mean Liverpool-Manchester journey times of approximately 22 minutes, with the Liverpool to London journey taking around an hour and 25 minutes. That plan would mean freeing up space on existing rail lines - opening up more capacity for freight services to and from the Port of Liverpool.


Addressing the committee, Tom Carbery, rail development advisor in relation to the Northern Powerhouse Rail and HS2, told councillors: "Officers have worked really hard on this.


"When the business case was first made, there was little reference to the visitor economy, but work has now been done to ensure there's substantial output on benefits for the visitor economy.


"A massive amount of work and ambition has gone into this. That's what we have come together to try and push for."

Campaigners have been calling for Liverpool to get a direct high-speed rail link ever since the city was missed out in the first plans for HS2.

Local business and political leaders joined forces in the Linking Liverpool campaign to call for a new high-speed line to be built linking Liverpool and Manchester.

Details of further upgrades to Lime Street and a new city centre station to be announced shortly!
 

6Gman

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Just a question.

Have the advocates of reopening Woodside been there recently?

80-90% of the time it's cold, windy ... and deserted!
 

Jorge Da Silva

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http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2019/03/13/liverpool-launches-plans-for-new-6bn-station/

Liverpool is setting up a Station Commission to oversee delivery of a planned new £6bn station in the city centre connecting to HS2 and the Northern Powerhouse Rail network.

Steve Rotheram, Metro Mayor of the Liverpool City Region, described construction of a new station as a “once-in-a-generation opportunity.”

The Commission will be chaired by Professor Denise Barrett-Baxendale, CEO of Everton Football Club.

Rotheram said: “Connecting the Liverpool City Region to HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail will both cut journey times and increase capacity, boosting our economy by £15 billion.

“In order to make that connection happen we will need a new station in Liverpool city centre, capable of accommodating HS2 trains, NPR trains and linking in with our local transport infrastructure. Lime Street will simply not be able to cope.

“Building a new station is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to create a gateway to the Liverpool City Region that is fit for the 21st century.

“What we envisage is more than just a station and a world-class transport hub, it has the potential to be a destination in its own right, architecturally stunning and featuring leisure and recreation facilities, commercial, retail, high-quality office accommodation, residential facilities and much more.

“But of course bringing this kind of infrastructure project to fruition will be enormously challenging, and that is why I have created this Commission, to take forward the work required.”

Barrett-Baxendale said: “I have no doubt that it will be challenging but with that challenge comes a golden opportunity to create a modern transport hub fit for the city region’s future.”


The Commission will bring together a range of experts from across the worlds of transport, business and the public sector.

Its remit will be to take forward all the key considerations in developing the project such as the size, functions, location and orientation of the station, working with partners on all elements leading towards its development.

A full connection to both Northern Powerhouse Rail and HS2 will reduce journey times between Liverpool and Manchester to around 23 minutes and Liverpool and London to around 89 minutes.

The current estimate for delivering the scheme and the development, design and construction spend is £6bn over a ten-year build programme.

Joe Anderson, Mayor of Liverpool, said: “We now need Government to put their money where the mouth is and commit to funding the project, while the Commission takes forward the exciting work of making it happen.”

Commission has been established to develop plans for a city centre station.
 

Bletchleyite

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Any alternatives?

Like Street cannot accommodate both NPR and HS2. Fact. Similar to how New Street could not accommodate HS2 so they chose Curzon Street instead.

I consider NPR to be a waste of money as well, to be honest; far more benefit would be gained from a blanket electrification programme and a programme to extend local and regional trains in the North to a minimum of 160m.
 

AndrewE

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I consider NPR to be a waste of money as well, to be honest; far more benefit would be gained from a blanket electrification programme
Electrification is needed, but doesn't deal with congestion on the 2-track section east of Stalybridge (or the full lines between Liverpool and Manchester) which is why I think NPR is needed. It should start by digging a new base tunnel between Oldham and Huddersfield which would deal with the electric gap too
and a programme to extend local and regional trains in the North to a minimum of 160m.
A good quick, but temporary, fix...
 

Bletchleyite

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Electrification is needed, but doesn't deal with congestion on the 2-track section east of Stalybridge (or the full lines between Liverpool and Manchester) which is why I think NPR is needed. It should start by digging a new base tunnel between Oldham and Huddersfield which would deal with the electric gap too

That congestion is caused by operating too many short trains. Reducing TPE by 2tph through the core would provide a significant improvement. The existing infrastructure is sufficient, particularly with electrification and high-acceleration EMUs making stopping services get out of the way, for an SBB-style 2tph frequency base using very long trains, which would be in my view the right way for the North.

A good quick, but temporary, fix...

Unlike down South I think this would last for a very long time.
 

AndrewE

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That congestion is caused by operating too many short trains. Reducing TPE by 2tph through the core would provide a significant improvement. The existing infrastructure is sufficient, particularly with electrification and high-acceleration EMUs making stopping services get out of the way, for an SBB-style 2tph frequency base using very long trains, which would be in my view the right way for the North.
And freight paths/loading gauge improvements through the Pennines?
Unlike down South I think this would last for a very long time.
but it might not. Funny how the best solution for a northern extended conurbation is to cut train services to 2 an hour! I suppose it would suppress demand, so that would help justify your proposal!
 

Bletchleyite

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And freight paths/loading gauge improvements through the Pennines?

NPR isn't going to be clogged up with a load of freight even if it is built. So its loading gauge is irrelevant.

Funny how the best solution for a northern extended conurbation is to cut train services to 2 an hour! I suppose it would suppress demand, so that would help justify your proposal!

Have you ever used SBB? Switzerland is quite similar to the North - the Swiss model of long trains on a 2tph frequency base with a perfect clockface timetable would be ideal. You don't need an InterCity train every 10 minutes.
 

AndrewE

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NPR isn't going to be clogged up with a load of freight even if it is built. So its loading gauge is irrelevant.
Nice to be future-proofing our railway (not!)
Have you ever used SBB?
Frequently. I might have been the first person to use "TahkFahrPlan" here and got abused for using foreign words that rail enthusiasts couldn't be expected to understand
Switzerland is quite similar to the North - the Swiss model of long trains on a 2tph frequency base with a perfect clockface timetable would be ideal. You don't need an InterCity train every 10 minutes.
Haven't we got bigger areas of population at closer spacing than Switzerland? I think Inter-Regio every 15 mins is a better comparison.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Lime Street is a massive problem for Liverpool as without any expansion (which would be incredibly disruptive and more expensive than a new terminal) there will be no room for any more services and I believe the upgrade recently was only a temporary fix for the medium term (i.e up to 2026). A new terminal is needed and Liverpool Exchange seems to me an obvious candidate as you could link it with Moorfields and it is close to the city centre could easily accommodate 6 platforms (or 8 platforms) for HS2 and NPR
 

AndrewE

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Have you ever used SBB? Switzerland is quite similar to the North.
Oh no it's not! I've looked it up now. The whole of Switzerland has about the same number of people (8.5 million) as Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds together (but not counting the rest of their hinterlands.) Switzerland is about 150 miles by 90, the population along our Northern corridor live in an area about 80 miles long by 20 wide... which might make the Netherlands or Belgium a more appropriate comparison.
 

Bletchleyite

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Oh no it's not! I've looked it up now. The whole of Switzerland has about the same number of people (8.5 million) as Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds together (but not counting the rest of their hinterlands.) Switzerland is about 150 miles by 90, the population along our Northern corridor live in an area about 80 miles long by 20 wide... which might make the Netherlands or Belgium a more appropriate comparison.

And if you have a look at the service offered in those countries, it's not short trains on silly frequencies.
 

Bevan Price

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Commission = Committee = Device to spend loads of £££££££££ waffling roundabout the topic for several years, and often producing schemes that eventually prove to be unaffordable. Meanwhile, one intelligent individual could probably reach the same conclusion at much lower cost in no more than a few weeks.

OK - a bit cynical, but that does seem to happen all too often.

So, what are the options ? First, to reach somewhere near the city centre, a fairly long tunnel will be needed to get clear of the built-up areas.

Next, where is there space to put a very long station on the surface ? Exchange has been mentioned above, but the exit points northward, and we need routes heading east / south. Using Exchange would need a long curved tunnel to get out of the city centre, probably adding 2-3 miles to the route, and increasing the cost.

There are some areas near the river bank, south of Albert Dock, that might be suitable, but would require some compulsory purchase and site clearance. But I don't think anyone would appreciate in-filling of Queen's Dock and/or Wapping Docks to create a station site.

Like Exchange, the North Docks areas are in less than ideal locations for lines heading east / south.

There is insufficient free surface space anywhere near the city centre business or shopping areas. That just leaves the option of an underground station, with a need to avoid existing underground lines, and avoiding areas lower than the water-table (which already causes problems with the loop line.)
 
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