Should there be a new terminal in Liverpool?

[61653 HTAFC]

But the key difference is that Merseyrail has exclusive use of most of its current infrastructure barring a few minor points. Having it interwork with other services would make it less reliable and more complex. Warrington could be done by handing over the CLC west of Warrington Central to their exclusive use (and wire the other half with a 15 minute frequency EMU service to Manchester), running the expresses another way, but the others couldn't.

Yes, extending Merseyrail onto the "city line" services would introduce complexity, nobody is suggesting that it wouldn't. But I know you have often compared Merseyrail to a German S-Bahn type service: something which also interacts with other services away from the central core. Something being difficult doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be done. If our ancestors had the same fear of complexity our railways would still be horse-drawn.

Anyway, the OP asks if Lime Street needs more capacity, and as it is constrained by surrounding buildings one way to create capacity would be to use the Wapping Tunnel and divert inner-suburban services onto Merseyrail.

I'd avoid the Warrington Central idea though, in favour of Bank Quay via Huyton. Complete 4-tracking should be possible once that motorway bridge at Broad Green is due for replacement (due fairly soon AIUI).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is around a 9 minute layover in Central since the timetable change. The South Parkway service arrives about 5 minutes after the Ormskirk service terminates so would be blocking the platform otherwise

Cheers, sounds like an extra unit has indeed been added.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'd avoid the Warrington Central idea though, in favour of Bank Quay via Huyton. Complete 4-tracking should be possible once that motorway bridge at Broad Green is due for replacement (due fairly soon AIUI).

Pity they put the OHLE masts on the old fast line route then, isn't it?
I think that would be an expensive solution.
Very poor connections at Earlestown/Winwick also.

 

[snowball]

Complete 4-tracking should be possible once that motorway bridge at Broad Green is due for replacement (due fairly soon AIUI).

Are you saying there are major structural problems with the bridge? It's only 40 years old and bridges are normally designed with the intention of lasting 120 years.

 

[driver_m]

You sure? There's a four-track railway between Edge Hill and Lime St. That's the same as the one on the approaches to most of the major London termini and I think they handle far more movements. Surely what's needed are more platforms, and that "just" needs widening out the throat and land acquisition alongside the existing platforms...

You've effectively got 6 tracks on approach though, if you look at the 4 from Allerton and the 2 from Huyton which also used to be 4. Most London terminals probably also haven't got the severe drop into their terminals unlike Lime St and Euston effectively has 6 lines in.

 

[HSTEd]

All this sounds really expensive, Warrington Central services could be diverted via Hunt's Cross using whatever traction system is appropriate, and that requires far less infrastructure than many options proposed here.

 

[6Gman]

You've effectively got 6 tracks on approach though, if you look at the 4 from Allerton and the 2 from Huyton which also used to be 4. Most London terminals probably also haven't got the severe drop into their terminals unlike Lime St and Euston effectively has 6 lines in.

The 4 tracks from Allerton only reach Wavertree Jn, of course, and moving from Up Fast to Up Slow involves crossing the Down Fast.

 

[mr_jrt]

Just because you have 6 merging into 4 east of Edge Hill doesn't change the fact that there are 4 tracks between Edge Hill and Lime St. and I'm fairly sure that's plenty given the number of platforms available. How many movements do other major termini with 4 tracks manage? I'd wager it'd be more than Lime St. as I suspect most if not all will have more platforms. There are reasons to add more tracks, but not before adding more platforms. If you wanted to have some sort of segregated low-level E-W Merseyrail line, for example, that would warrant a new tunnel, obviously.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are you saying there are major structural problems with the bridge? It's only 40 years old and bridges are normally designed with the intention of lasting 120 years.

I was basing that theory on discussions past on (I think) the original Liverpool to Manchester electrification thread. I think there was mention from authoritative members about the M62 near Broad Green currently preventing 4-tracking but that changes are/were planned that would free up space. I may have misremembered the details of this though.

 

[snowball]

I was basing that theory on discussions past on (I think) the original Liverpool to Manchester electrification thread. I think there was mention from authoritative members about the M62 near Broad Green currently preventing 4-tracking but that changes are/were planned that would free up space. I may have misremembered the details of this though.

Thanks for the info. I remember discussion of the constraint represented by the bridge but I don't remember any suggestion that there was a plan to rebuild it. It sounds extremely implausible to me. It would be a big job, and if it was being done for Network Rail's benefit then they would have to pay for it.

 

[driver_m]

Yeah it definitely stops 4 tracking, but the issue with the part that has taken up the track isn't the M62 itself but the road at the side that you need to access the station entrance and the road to get to the southern side of the M62. It should be possible to get rid of it as there are other ways of gaining access to the places off this road but it's whether locals would complain and whether there's the will for not much overall gain, especially seeing as if the Wapping ever did get reused, (or the Vic/Waterloo tunnels) then you'd need some substantial grade separation anyway further down there, where there is far more land to play with .

 

[driver_m]

Just because you have 6 merging into 4 east of Edge Hill doesn't change the fact that there are 4 tracks between Edge Hill and Lime St. and I'm fairly sure that's plenty given the number of platforms available. How many movements do other major termini with 4 tracks manage? I'd wager it'd be more than Lime St. as I suspect most if not all will have more platforms. There are reasons to add more tracks, but not before adding more platforms. If you wanted to have some sort of segregated low-level E-W Merseyrail line, for example, that would warrant a new tunnel, obviously.

As I've said before .The steep gradient is a major barrier to capacity, look at the times dropping in, as opposed to coming out of Edge Hill. There'll be incremental improvements with the extra set of signals in the cutting, and the bi-di working on the down chat Moss in the cutting, but it will still be constrained. Id say overall that the long term plans has to involve getting all current class 2 Northern Electrics into the Wapping to integrate with merseyrail .

 

[B&I]

Are you saying there are major structural problems with the bridge? It's only 40 years old and bridges are normally designed with the intention of lasting 120 years.

The flyover on the Queens Drive nearby, which must be of similar vintage, is said to be life-expired

 

[B&I]

Yeah it definitely stops 4 tracking, but the issue with the part that has taken up the track isn't the M62 itself but the road at the side that you need to access the station entrance and the road to get to the southern side of the M62. It should be possible to get rid of it as there are other ways of gaining access to the places off this road but it's whether locals would complain and whether there's the will for not much overall gain, especially seeing as if the Wapping ever did get reused, (or the Vic/Waterloo tunnels) then you'd need some substantial grade separation anyway further down there, where there is far more land to play with .

It's a shame that, as recently as 4 years ago, when the land north of the station was redeveloped for housing, nobody built ( or reserved the land to build) an access road from the railway bridge on Bowring Park Road down to Old Thomas Lane, to enable that slip road to be removed.

 

[B&I]

The Wapping solution seems most obvious, not just in terms of removing local trains from Lime St high level, but also by improving cross-city connections. The disadvantages strike me as limiting the length of long distance trains, compared to a new terminal, and needing to reinstate the flyover at Edge Hill to take Wapping tunnel trains onto the Chat Moss lines. Neither insurmountable, but both (the former in particular) potentially pricy and disruptive.

Another nice to have would be a fixed pedestrian link to Central.

I'm also glad to see a thread about railway improvements in Liverpool has suvived onto a second page without a. certain people mobbing it to question its necessity b. a certain moderator locking it.

 

[frodshamfella]

Article in Liverpool Echo about railway link to airport, quite interesting reading.

 

[Huntscross]

Complete pie in the sky thinking but isn't there a tunnel parallel to lime street, goes under the old national express station. The whole London road area is a dump within spitting distance of so many historic billings, how much resistance would there be to clearing the lot and putting a few platforms in the tunnel where national express used to be.

 

[B&I]

Complete pie in the sky thinking but isn't there a tunnel parallel to lime street, goes under the old national express station. The whole London road area is a dump within spitting distance of so many historic billings, how much resistance would there be to clearing the lot and putting a few platforms in the tunnel where national express used to be.

In a really really ideal world I'd like to see that tunnel (the Victoria) connected to the Wirral Line loop, to enable trains from it to run through to the north side of Edge Hill, then onto the Chat Moss and Wigan lines. But a supplementary terminus on the underused land north of the London Road, a very short walk from Lime Street, is another option

 

[driver_m]

All the options into Liverpool have some difficulty to an extent with getting an improved route, but one I'm surprised no one has mentioned is the route in via Kirkdale and Sandhills. Most of the infrastructure was 4 tracked over that way as well, doesnt appear to be heavily built on and appears to make a route into Exchange probably the least hard. Sure there's plans though for a big construction project at or near the old Exchange station which would obviously spoil that idea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another nice to have would be a fixed pedestrian link to Central.

Do you mean underground? I'm not convinced that would necessarily be a pleasant place to be when the street-level walk isn't *that* bad.

 

[urbophile]

Do you mean underground? I'm not convinced that would necessarily be a pleasant place to be when the street-level walk isn't *that* bad.

A wide and well-lit passageway (with travelators) would be far preferable to Great Charlotte Street with the sleaziest and noisiest pubs in the city. High-quality buskers would be an improvement on drunken karaoke.

 

[B&I]

Do you mean underground? I'm not convinced that would necessarily be a pleasant place to be when the street-level walk isn't *that* bad.

As I think I said on another thread, if they were going to the bother of flattening the buildings on the east side of Lime Street, they could easily have installed a passage im the basement of the new one, continuining through the basement of Lewis's (also due for refurbishmemt) and into Central. To avoid Clockwork Orangeification, the passage could have had shops alongside it, as the buildings above are due to be re-used for retail

 

[notlob.divad]

As I think I said on another thread, if they were going to the bother of flattening the buildings on the east side of Lime Street, they could easily have installed a passage im the basement of the new one, continuining through the basement of Lewis's (also due for refurbishmemt) and into Central. To avoid Clockwork Orangeification, the passage could have had shops alongside it, as the buildings above are due to be re-used for retail

Or basement level entrances into the ground floor shops, a la the Montreal metro.

 

[The Ham]

The title shouldn't be "Should their be a new terminal in Liverpool?"

Either "Where should the people of Liverpool ask for their new terminal to be?"

Or "Should there be a new terminal in Liverpool?"

Or "The people of Liverpool: they're asking where should a new terminal go?"

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The title shouldn't be "Should their be a new terminal in Liverpool?"

Either "Where should the people of Liverpool ask for their new terminal to be?"

Or "Should there be a new terminal in Liverpool?"

Or "The people of Liverpool: they're asking where should a new terminal go?"

Changed. Thanks for the reply.

 

[yoyothehobo]

A big question then is "What do you want the new terminal for?"

Is it to increase more local services and their movements into and out of lime street?
Is it for more interurban services to Preston, Birmingham and London?
Is it for more for long distance services to London and Glasgow?

The problem for Liverpool is that much fewer people come from the opposite side of the centre to the main rail links (due in part to it being Ocean). This means that if you are on the Lime Street - Crewe line then you get the train there first to change onto London and Scotland services. If you are st helens eastwards you will go to Wigan for your changes which leaves the Merseyrail network as your main source of passengers. So you need to ideally have a duplication of Lime Street completely and I just dont know of a logical place to put it other than extending any electrified trains through a tunnel into an expanded Central and have travelator access between there and Lime Street. Keep anything interurban and diesel in Limestreet itself, you could even run dual voltage units onto the Merseyrail core but as mentioned above, it would greatly affect reliability.

I dont think building a new terminus would be helpful and you cant really expand Lime Street.

 

[Camden]

A big question then is "What do you want the new terminal for?"

Is it to increase more local services and their movements into and out of lime street?
Is it for more interurban services to Preston, Birmingham and London?
Is it for more for long distance services to London and Glasgow?

The problem for Liverpool is that much fewer people come from the opposite side of the centre to the main rail links (due in part to it being Ocean). This means that if you are on the Lime Street - Crewe line then you get the train there first to change onto London and Scotland services. If you are st helens eastwards you will go to Wigan for your changes which leaves the Merseyrail network as your main source of passengers. So you need to ideally have a duplication of Lime Street completely and I just dont know of a logical place to put it other than extending any electrified trains through a tunnel into an expanded Central and have travelator access between there and Lime Street. Keep anything interurban and diesel in Limestreet itself, you could even run dual voltage units onto the Merseyrail core but as mentioned above, it would greatly affect reliability.

I dont think building a new terminus would be helpful and you cant really expand Lime Street.

New York is on the ocean. North Liverpool is facing the sea, Central & South Liverpool is on the Mersey, with the Wirral peninsula 2 minutes away by train. Beyond the peninsula, if it were connected properly, are the million or so people stretched along the North Wales coast strip. What does anyone go to a major city for? Not to change trains, usually.

When you can draw a line between Liverpool and London that passes right by Birmingham, I'm not sure where this popular notion has developed from of Liverpool being the **** end of nowhere with nothing around it. At the very least, it's geographically very incorrect!!

The city is very poorly connected for a major city, and this really does need some radical rethinking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The city is very poorly connected for a major city, and this really does need some radical rethinking.

It really isn't. The North West generally is hugely well connected, with a dense web of lines that provides much greater rail access to places, including smaller places, than the radial network the South East outside London suffers from. I grew up as a kid being able to get near enough anywhere I wanted by a combination of train, bike and bus - a huge level of independence - that few other places in the UK enjoy as typically rail is either just low frequency branch lines or just for going to London.

It also enjoys a dense web of motorways and quality A roads that would be the envy of most of the country other than maybe Brum (and I'd rather live in Liverpool than Brum any day - outside the now quite nice centre the suburbs are "a little bit grim" (say it with a Brummie accent ) ).

Where it needs improvements is in longer (160m) regional trains, electrification, clockface connectional timetabling etc - it basically needs to look a lot more like Nederlandse Spoorwegen, to which it is conceptually very similar, with a bit of SBB in there somewhere to compare to the more rural bits.

The one concession I'd make to actual additional services is that I strongly believe the LNR Trent Valley service should extend to Lime St providing a second train per hour and a budget walk-up option, and I think (much as VT would hate it) it would be very, very popular - it might even kill off the road coaches.

 

[Camden]

Factually it is poorly connected, though. It's one of the countries biggest cities but it sits in the lower half of the table of larger cities (not just major cities) for direct connections. A city 30 odd miles away is in the top three. That kind of disparity doesn't tot up.

In addition the connections it will at some point be gaining, one is only three times a day and the other two are very poor services that will be travelling on local lines. At the same time, connections to East Midlands/Anglia stations will be severed (although these in time terms are only of the same standard).

For roads, two of its key entry points (notably providing access for the area of its hinterland which needs to be bolstered rather than hampered) are tolled.

I don't disagree that the UK ought to do its transport differently, with longer trains running and with better timing, but that's part of the same package because what is being spoken about is doing what's right all round.

There needs to be a step change in the services the city gets, recognising what it as a second tier city needs to support its economy.

Ideally, via an approach where all second tier major cities receive connections broadly to the same level. This means regional cities and towns within X miles get a direct connection, and it should also mean that all major cities are directly connected to one another.

The island has three capitals, plus four truly major cities in terms of size (including Liverpool), and two additional cities which count as major through economy. It shouldn't be this hard!

 

[yoyothehobo]

How is Liverpool poorly connected? It has a line in from the Wirral and a half radial network which many other cities would kill for. With regards to the north wales coast line what is more vital to Liverpool itself? Having a good suburban railway that links right to the heart of the city with little interference from the rest of the city or mixing it with longer distance trains to North Wales, or are you suggesting boring a large tunnel across both the Dee and the Mersey to access the North Wales area?

People in North Wales who want to go shopping somewhere will just as likely go to Chester as Liverpool.

And it may well be a straight line from London to Liverpool through Birmingham, unfortunately if you keep going on that line, there is nowhere to go but sea. North Wales connections are better from Crewe due to geography, Scotland trains are never going to logically go via Liverpool so I dont really know what point you are trying to make.