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Should the third rail ban be lifted?

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AndrewE

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The review on this specific point was not talking about nuclear safety in specific but about how the courts interpret the meaning of "reasonably practical" with regards to the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 - it cites the 2011 case Baker v Quantum Clothing Group, which was about noise protection, where different judges had different and contradictory views about whether a defence to claims of failing to implement a safety measure required the employer to show that the expense of the measure was in disproportion to the risk.
The phrase is "Reasonably practicable." It is in the HaSaWA 1974 and is well understood, being defined by the courts way back. Practicable means physically possible to achieve. "Reasonably" applied to it means where the further benefits to be gained are not outweighed by the cost or effort of achieving those gains.

I would say that the gains from extending/infilling 3rd rail (more economical and reliable trains, possibly lower cost in the longer term, less diesel exhaust pollution too) are worth grabbing and outweigh the slight additional risk from slightly more 3rd rail geographically-speaking.
 
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Bald Rick

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I would say that the gains from extending/infilling 3rd rail (more economical and reliable trains, possibly lower cost in the longer term, less diesel exhaust pollution too) are worth grabbing and outweigh the slight additional risk from slightly more 3rd rail geographically-speaking.

But if the cost if a battery train solution is lower….
 

AndrewE

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But if the cost if a battery train solution is lower….
Jam tomorrow - but not available tomorrow (or even this year) let alone today. The best time to start decarbonising was years ago. I bet a team could start installing 3rd rail with a 3-month lead time (as long as the sleepers are long enough to mount the insulators on.)
 

Snow1964

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Jam tomorrow - but not available tomorrow (or even this year) let alone today. The best time to start decarbonising was years ago. I bet a team could start installing 3rd rail with a 3-month lead time (as long as the sleepers are long enough to mount the insulators on.)
From way back in 1970s (if not earlier) every line on Southern region gaining concrete sleepers had the version with 4 plug holes to screw the insulating pots on. Even non electrified bits to Salisbury etc.

From memory normal practice was every second sleeper had holes one end, and 4th sleeper was opposite way round, so holes other end. Apologies if I got spacing wrong. Don't know if they still do that, but it was done for many years.
 

Energy

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I get the sense that some on here may just "like" 3rd rail, much like many maintenance staff quite like fixing diesel engines...

From way back in 1970s (if not earlier) every line on Southern region gaining concrete sleepers had the version with 4 plug holes to screw the insulating pots on. Even non electrified bits to Salisbury etc.
Makes sense, it stops the Southern Region from having to keep both hole & no hole sleepers around.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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From way back in 1970s (if not earlier) every line on Southern region gaining concrete sleepers had the version with 4 plug holes to screw the insulating pots on. Even non electrified bits to Salisbury etc.

From memory normal practice was every second sleeper had holes one end, and 4th sleeper was opposite way round, so holes other end. Apologies if I got spacing wrong. Don't know if they still do that, but it was done for many years.
I believe some of the un-electrified sections of Reading - Redhill have been relaid with steel sleepers, which rather puts a kibosh on things!
 

35B

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I get the sense that some on here may just "like" 3rd rail, much like many maintenance staff quite like fixing diesel engines...
Possibly. Personally, I see a viable technology that is in widespread use, and find it deeply frustrating that the policy seems based on doing anything but optimise use of it. Personally, I'd sooner have 25kV AC overhead because of the advantages it offers, but that ship sailed a century ago and I see no plausible possibility of a changeover.
 

Djgr

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I get the sense that some on here may just "like" 3rd rail, much like many maintenance staff quite like fixing diesel engines...
I get the sense that there is a battle between science and an anti 3rd rail cult!
 

AndrewE

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I get the sense that there is a battle between science and an anti 3rd rail cult!
I think group-think is the problem! Within "the railway establishment" they have lost heart and aren't prepared to call out the ultra-cautious civil servants. I heard a lot of criticism from senior railwaymen of the Railway Inspectorate's edicts once it came within HSE and risk assessments ruled...

The trouble with RAs is that (if you don't actually have experience running that specific job plus a bit of courage) it is easy to write yourself into an ultra-cautious backside-protecting corner and completely block any worthwhile development. I speak as one who went from BR to HSE so I have experience of it - and trying to resist!

Given that most technical (scientific) people who know what they are talking about are saying we have got to move to a war footing if we are going to avoid catastrophic harm - and costs - from global warming I am surprised that we still have no joined-up government on issues like this.
 

Bald Rick

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I bet a team could start installing 3rd rail with a 3-month lead time (as long as the sleepers are long enough to mount the insulators on.)

Probably. I bet we couldn’t run third rail trains on it for years though.


From way back in 1970s (if not earlier) every line on Southern region gaining concrete sleepers had the version with 4 plug holes to screw the insulating pots on. Even non electrified bits to Salisbury etc.

Not everywhere…

I believe some of the un-electrified sections of Reading - Redhill have been relaid with steel sleepers, which rather puts a kibosh on things!

Correct.
 
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Energy

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Possibly. Personally, I see a viable technology that is in widespread use, and find it deeply frustrating that the policy seems based on doing anything but optimise use of it. Personally, I'd sooner have 25kV AC overhead because of the advantages it offers, but that ship sailed a century ago and I see no plausible possibility of a changeover.
I'm not convinced that optimizing 3rd rail is extensions though.
I get the sense that there is a battle between science and an anti 3rd rail cult!
You'll need to back up the scientific side...

So far, for 3rd rail:

- higher transmission losses due to the lower voltage
- requires frequent substations
- limited to 100mph max
- limited ability for regenerative breaking
- susceptible to environmental factors, like ice
- more equipment to maintain
- increased danger to lineside workers

Meanwhile, for battery EMUs:

- a bit more weight, but many electrostars already carry around a concrete block
- Marshlink & Uckfield might be microfleets... but Southern already has similar-size 377 variant microfleets due to dual-voltage units.

While there is an environmental impact in making the batteries, the additional conductor rail, insulators, switchgear (see SF6), etc., are rarely considered in comparisons.
 

eldomtom2

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"Reasonably" applied to it means where the further benefits to be gained are not outweighed by the cost or effort of achieving those gains.
This would be the "gross disproportion" standard, which as I have explained is something the courts have at times endorsed and at other times rejected.
 

Pigeon

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- higher transmission losses due to the lower voltage

Some months ago someone posted on here how much loss we actually experience in the two systems, and it turns out the difference is much less than I^2R would lead you to expect. Why this should be so is a question with many different answers, but a couple that spring to mind are that the very limitation on available power from 3rd rail has restrained EMU designers from installing quite such an extravagant excess of power as is possible on 25kV, and that there is a regrettable tendency to cheap out on power distribution systems by specifying them down to an "acceptable" degree of lossiness, as a result of which 25kV systems don't gain the full advantage that they ought to get. So while third rail is worse, it's nothing like as much worse as it's straightforwardly assumed to be, and furthermore both systems have considerable scope for improvement.

Meanwhile the fact that battery systems have their own losses is generally ignored. Not all the energy you put into the battery manifests itself as charge, and not all the charge comes out again as useful energy: neither charging nor discharging are free of loss in the battery itself. Then there is the need for an additional power conversion step. There is also an effect on overall transmission loss, because the short term heavy loads of battery charging cause more loss than drawing the same amount of energy over the longer time of the train's whole journey. Etc etc... lots of small effects, but since they are multiplicative you can't just collectively dismiss them as negligible. The point here is that the implicit widespread assumption that losses need to be considered with third rail but not with batteries does not hold up.

- requires frequent substations

This is a good thing. It gives you more redundancy and ability to cope with faults, and smaller sections which can be individually isolated. It also means you can draw from the grid at more points in smaller amounts, rather than single gigantic point loads which the grid finds it difficult to cope with.

- limited to 100mph max

So was overhead before all the research into pantograph dynamics they did when developing the APT. There's no reason to believe third rail can't do over 100mph. The difference is that nobody has seriously bothered to try, and the reason for this is that with the geography and service patterns of the third rail network being what they are there is no point. So few trains can ever get a chance at 100mph anyway that it doesn't make any difference.

- limited ability for regenerative breaking

The same applies to AC electrification... if you use old technology which doesn't support bidirectional conversion. These days there's no more reason for it to be true of one than of the other. The components of the system are all the same, it's just a matter of some of them being in different places.

- a bit more weight, but many electrostars already carry around a concrete block

Many Electrostars may have been bodged, but that isn't a justification for anything.

- Marshlink & Uckfield might be microfleets... but Southern already has similar-size 377 variant microfleets due to dual-voltage units.

All the more reason to avoid proliferating them even further.

Possibly. Personally, I see a viable technology that is in widespread use, and find it deeply frustrating that the policy seems based on doing anything but optimise use of it. Personally, I'd sooner have 25kV AC overhead because of the advantages it offers, but that ship sailed a century ago and I see no plausible possibility of a changeover.

I quite agree.
 

Djgr

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So few trains can ever get a chance at 100mph anyway that it doesn't make any difference.

Are there any potential 3rd rail extensions where there would be a requirement for 100mph running?

Kirkby to Headbolt Lane certainly wasn't one!
 

martin butler

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Are there any potential 3rd rail extensions where there would be a requirement for 100mph running?

Kirkby to Headbolt Lane certainly wasn't one!
I Can't think of any, even Basingstoke to Exeter unless any electrification scheme included line upgrades would not have a line speed above what it already is, and to be honest, any scheme would be 25kv anyway,

The most likely candidates are already existing routes that have 3rd rail sections, so filling in gaps, rather than electrifying whole routes,
 

mmh

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Trains up to Oxted do not draw full current all the way, far from it. And, of course, it’s downhill from Oxted tunnel for nearly 9 miles.
So it's uphill in the opposite direction.
 

JohnElliott

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I believe some of the un-electrified sections of Reading - Redhill have been relaid with steel sleepers, which rather puts a kibosh on things!
When the SR electrified to Eastbourne in the 1930s some sections had to be relaid because they had steel sleepers.
 

Pigeon

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I thought most 3rd rail emus had regenerative breaking now? Desiros started rolling it out in 2012? http://www.railjournal.com/rolling-stock/south-west-trains-upgrades-emu-fleet/

The problem is old substation equipment not being able to send the power back into the grid because passive rectification can't convert DC back into AC. This is exactly the same reason why AC electrics used not to be able to regenerate, and the answer is the same too - install the technology we now have available, which can do it.
 

Technologist

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The article splits it, there is not a question over battery trains continuing along a branch. But article is about the bad idea of discontinuous electric on main lines and through routes.

In summary, if leave gaps, then forced to add complexity and weight to the trains for decades, so add to ongoing running costs and energy to haul the mass of extra equipment, and lose flexibility to run the pure electric trains and electric freight locos (or have to add much more powerful alternative systems to freight locos because not just moving them to depot reception off the mains).

So whilst you save in short term, having gaps on the mainline means either stuck with bimodes which as experience has shown need lots of diesel maintenance (which is so costly and time consuming the railway regularly puts trains out with dead engine) this in term loses revenue because then slow down timetables (or never speed them up) to allow the regular weaker performance. Slower timetables less attractive than trains running quickly using all their power.

Yes wires need maintenance, but costs of doing so are small compared to the costs of using diesels with their extended downtime, extra repairs and servicing and fueling, or extra energy hauling around engines and batteries which are only used part time.
He's engaging in one of the basic principles of arguing against a technology, cherry pick your examples and then assume no improvements are possible. He also conflates batteries and Bi-Modes.

If you want to create a strategy BEMU is likely the best option and it is also the option on the "right side of history". OHLE technology is unlikely to go anywhere, BEMU technology is currently at the Tesla Roadster level of implementation and is only going to get better as technology is fed through from cars.

To address a few of his augments:

Weight - Track wear is proportional to approximately the 4 power of axle weight, if we are designing a proper BEMU we are going to distribute the batteries across the carriages to equalise axle weight and thus have the lowest possible track wear. This also assumes that we are standing still with rolling stock design, if we pull technology from BEVs we are looking at having every axle powered, with a higher overall output and lower and better distributed load. We could also replace transformers with power electronics which would again remove a large point mass and distribute it around the train. Just to put this into perspective we are looking at a high performance adding about 5% to its dry weight in batteries, this is not a massive difference in track wear.

Even if we assumed a BEMU with the same weight distribution as Bi-Mode it only costs £2k more per mile in track maintenance. At German costs it would cost £1 million to electrify a plain mile of track. This would have a payback time of "infinity" once we add in maintenance of the OHLE.

Maintenance - The typical amount of maintenance done on a battery pack is zero pounds, since we are mostly talking about partial discharge cycles the battery will run for several tens of thousands of cycles, you will see its capacity gradually degrade and when this rate of degradation shows signs of increasing you schedule it's removal. It is then replaced by a much better and longer life battery. The maintenance benefit is that all the depots now don't need electrification and they also don't need refuelling facilities.

Flexibility - You can deal with failures in the OHLE or you can disable sections of it to allow maintenance while trains are still running. This is likely to be a massive improvement to maintenance cost and scheduling.

Cost - Batteries are cheap and getting cheaper, even if you double the price of a battery pack vs what you currently pay for a car pack, you assume the pack only lasts 700 journeys and then you divide it per passenger it would only add pennies to your ticket. Batteries add a small proportional cost to the rolling stock which is the cheap bit of the cost of travel. They then allow you to remove an major expense from the most expensive bit of your ticket.

Performance - You might have noticed that you can now get 1500bhp family hatchbacks due to electrification and batteries. Even though trains will have proportionally smaller batteries it is quite feasible to design a BEMU that will be able to accelerate like a tube train all the way to 150mph. Thus it doesn't matter if we lose a battery or a few motors, the BEMU will comprehensively out perform a OHLE powered train which is always limited by how much power we can put down a relatively thin wire or through substations. This plus the flexibility is why we should have BEMUs run on electrified lines and be the default for all rail vehicles.
 

Technologist

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Didn’t think the Xiaomi SU7 was a family car?
It's got 5 seats, the back ones have individual monitors, it's still more powerful than a Bugatti, has 5 seats and costs 1/20 the price. If you can live with only 1000bhp you can have the Tesla Model S which is definitely a family car, there is also the Lucid Air.

Even the most basic 5 door hatchback EV has more power than a GTI. It's cheaper to delete the gear box and scale up the motor to compensate which results in all EVs having pretty fierce low down acceleration.
 

Energy

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Some months ago someone posted on here how much loss we actually experience in the two systems, and it turns out the difference is much less than I^2R would lead you to expect.
Interesting, I'll have a read through that thread.
This is a good thing. It gives you more redundancy and ability to cope with faults, and smaller sections which can be individually isolated. It also means you can draw from the grid at more points in smaller amounts, rather than single gigantic point loads which the grid finds it difficult to cope with.
While I agree that reducing massive single-phase loads is good, using Static Frequency Converters is a better solution than drawing from DNO feeds.
The same applies to AC electrification... if you use old technology which doesn't support bidirectional conversion. These days there's no more reason for it to be true of one than of the other. The components of the system are all the same, it's just a matter of some of them being in different places.
Yes... but I was comparing against battery EMUs.

AC electrification is a great technology, but where battery trains are sufficient, it has many of the downsides that DC electrification would have, like extra infrastructure to maintain and, as you said, limited regen.
 

DM352

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Not read the whole thread but filling in the Uckfield and Marsh link routes with third rail is logical to me and until recently thought it was just money that stopped it.

I remember reading about when Hastings route was electrified they had to make gaps for badgers not to get fried crossing it. Yes, I get third rail is more dangerous to trespassers than overhead but those folks could have the same problem on a route already electrified.

Batteries have their place but of late seeing existing fleet modifications it has not worked as well as the project proposal material with one more thing that could go wrong. Headbolt lane in my opinion should have been third railed than move the issue to a subfleet.
 

Harlequinuk

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Doesn't make much sense as described. What would your shoebox device actually do? How would it be actuated when a train passed over it? How would the current get to it? (That would need extra draggy wires, presumably). If you run the system at a higher voltage you still need "wires". Oh, and of course higher voltage would need new trains and new substations -or at least very expensive conversion of old ones. It sounds more like about £10M/km to me. And if you are going to use a BEMU in case the switches fail, why bother with the third rail at all?

The Bordeux tramway was embedded 3rd rail , with isolation sections at regular intervals. The power is only `on` for the section the tram is on and the one its approaching. Once passed over it turns off.
 

anthony263

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The Bordeux tramway was embedded 3rd rail , with isolation sections at regular intervals. The power is only `on` for the section the tram is on and the one its approaching. Once passed over it turns off.
Maybe something like that would be good for new 3rd rail extension
 

zwk500

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The Bordeux tramway was embedded 3rd rail , with isolation sections at regular intervals. The power is only `on` for the section the tram is on and the one its approaching. Once passed over it turns off.
It clearly isn't the best solution though because once outside of the historic city centre, Bordeaux trams switch to conventional OLE. I have a feeling APS is also limited in speed due to the segment length (as it uses 11m segments), but the only reference I can find online is Grok, and it cites an article for a 50 km/h max speed that doesn't actually say anything about it.

For reference, 90mph is 40m/s, and so the train would be traversing each segment in 0.25 seconds. That's not a lot of time to energise each section. In comparison, 30mph is 13m/s and so the section is on for about 3.5x longer.
 

MarkyT

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The Victorians have already tried that out (as usual) - at Torquay. See the Dolter system on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stud_contact_system#Dolter
Definitely in the "Seemed like a good idea at the time" category!
There was another section of Dolter stud track in Hastings, also short-lived. The system was adopted for a connecting line joining two formerly isolated networks through the town center, both of which were already overhead electrified. In both towns, there was great objection to trolley wires in sensitive locations, though locals were forced to accept them eventually when the Dolter technology failed and was removed. When trams in Torbay were removed in the 1930s, the company considered retaining and converting the electrical supply for trolleybuses, but internal combustion buses won out instead. Perhaps the original feelings towards overhead wires informed that decision. Finally, after nearly another century, Torbay's buses are being electrified by Stagecoach using battery technology. Note something similar to the Dolter stud boxes embedded in the road might make a good alternative static charging station at terminals, switched on only when a suitable vehicle is present. I think e-buses today mostly use the shoreside upside down pantograph charging system, contacting twin rails on the vehicle roof.
 
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