• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Should the HS2-HS1 tunnel under London be uncancelled?

Status
Not open for further replies.

bspahh

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2017
Messages
2,447
Sorry, but that is still ridiculous. How is it calculated?
Could you provide a link to the original so we can see the logic employed?

I found a few documents which refer to the interchange penalties from PDFH 6.0 table B4.13, but don't include them.

However, page 148 of the 2023 East West Rail Economic and Technical Report says:
PDFH research in the table below suggests that passengers treat the interchanging at least 10 minutes in on-train time equivalent for a 15-mile journey, which rises according to distance. This is in addition to the time required to interchange. For Bicester to Cambridge - 70-mile journey – a passenger on an Off-Peak ticket would treat interchanging as equivalent to 31 minutes of travel time.

Table 11 Interchange penalties (from Table B4.13, PDFH v6.0)

Distance (miles)Passengers on Anytime, Off Peak and Advance tickets, minutesPassengers on Season tickets, minutes
151510
301912
502516
703120
1004026

The transfer times between Euston and other terminals are listed at brfares.com. If you add the minimum connection time for each of Euston and St Pancras (15 minutes each), 5 minutes for the transfer time between 7am and 7pm and the penalty from the table above you can get to over an hour.

In the East West rail document, it looks like it is counting the penalty for changing trains at the same station. It doesn't seem to count the minimum connection time for the station for the interchange.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
2,405
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
when if Crossrail 2 is built
I cant see any politician willing to sign off Crossrail 2 given the huge overruns on the original Crossrail later Elizabeth line project, and the financial disaster that HS2 has turned into. How long it will take for this situation to change I don't know, but my guess would be several political cycles.

Maybe the learning is that any study for a new project should only take account of other projects which have reached a point where they are funded and happening. Otherwise its pie in the sky.

A similar thing happened in Manchester with the Ordsal chord, there was going to be other improvement in the Castlefield corridor, which got scrapped and the Ordsal chord became almost a white elephant
 

Indigo Soup

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
1,488
Sorry, but that is still ridiculous. How is it calculated?
I wonder if it's X minutes to actually get from A to B, Y minutes in case you just miss the next train, and Z minutes as an allowance for the general nuisance putting passengers off.

AFAIK at one point the value of 'Z' was 30 minutes for a change of train, and the allowance for Euston to St Pancras currently is 20 minutes. If the connecting service runs every 15 minutes, that does get you to 65 minutes.

Whether that's at all the correct calculation for these purposes is another matter altogether.
 

MotCO

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
6,147
Or extend the Elizabeth line to Ashford where you can change onto Eurostar if they reopen the international platforms. Either option does seem a lot cheaper than more tunnels under London.

There is a Youtube video broadcast by Ashford Borough Council pleading the case for Ashford to reopen as an international station. Maybe my proposal wasn't so far off the mark :D
(Various dignitaries from Ashford Council, Chamber of Commerce, MPs etc are asking the Government to consider re-establishing Ashford as an international station to link with Europe.)
 

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
2,405
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
I do it a street level, however can understand why many don‘t. Mainly rain and having to cross very busy roads.
I have always thought that if a (mainly) covered flat/ramped, as in OK for wheely luggage, buggies or wheel chairs, walking route could be provided between Euston and St Pancras, properly lit, signed and patrolled, and away from the mayhem of Euston Rd most people would be happy. In the grand scheme of everything else the cost would be peanuts.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,678
Location
Northampton
I have always thought that if a (mainly) covered flat/ramped, as in OK for wheely luggage, buggies or wheel chairs, walking route could be provided between Euston and St Pancras, properly lit, signed and patrolled, and away from the mayhem of Euston Rd most people would be happy. In the grand scheme of everything else the cost would be peanuts.
TfL did propose something that was basically that minus the coverage for the Phoenix Road route as part of the HS2 works. Not sure if that ever got through to design.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,967
The best thing would be to go with my plan and build a tunnel from HS1 to OOC with a small underground station north of Kings Cross to send all the Javelins to Heathrow.

How are you defining “best” in that scenario?
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,678
Location
Northampton
The best thing would be to go with my plan and build a tunnel from HS1 to OOC with a small underground station north of Kings Cross to send all the Javelins to Heathrow.
Well you'd better get down to OOC rather quickly then, because they've already built the station to plans that don't include space for a tunnel so it'll need rebuilding again.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,967
Well you'd better get down to OOC rather quickly then, because they've already built the station to plans that don't include space for a tunnel so it'll need rebuilding again.

And you cant get from the box to Heathrow. And there aren’t enough Javelins, and most people who ise the Javelins actially want to go to St P or at least by onward transport accessed from there, and not some random station in Camden. But other than that…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I will be interesting if Crossrail 2 will sort this anyway (if it ever gets built)

Very coincidentally, The British Library has today confirmed their plans for the vacant site that sits on top of part of the Crossrail 2 safeguarded area. IanVisits has done an excellent piece on his website, which shows the Crossrail 2 station in some detail, along with the rest of the area. It also has a diagram that shows deep the Library goes, and its foundations.


(too much to quote, and it’s the pics that are the interesting bit.)
 
Last edited:

Sad Sprinter

Established Member
Joined
5 Jun 2017
Messages
3,186
Location
Way on down South London town
Well you'd better get down to OOC rather quickly then, because they've already built the station to plans that don't include space for a tunnel so it'll need rebuilding again.

Yes, I was talking theoretically.

If you really wanted another station box, it'll probably have to be on what is now North Pole depot.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,058
I found a few documents which refer to the interchange penalties from PDFH 6.0 table B4.13, but don't include them.

However, page 148 of the 2023 East West Rail Economic and Technical Report says:


The transfer times between Euston and other terminals are listed at brfares.com. If you add the minimum connection time for each of Euston and St Pancras (15 minutes each), 5 minutes for the transfer time between 7am and 7pm and the penalty from the table above you can get to over an hour.

In the East West rail document, it looks like it is counting the penalty for changing trains at the same station. It doesn't seem to count the minimum connection time for the station for the interchange.

However, the assumption that an station interchange doesn't have any penalties is where I (and I suspect others) have an issue.

Bottom line, either there's penalties as described at all stations, or there's none.

Either way you can't count it for changing at Euston but not at St Pancras.

I cant see any politician willing to sign off Crossrail 2 given the huge overruns on the original Crossrail later Elizabeth line project, and the financial disaster that HS2 has turned into. How long it will take for this situation to change I don't know, but my guess would be several political cycles.

Maybe the learning is that any study for a new project should only take account of other projects which have reached a point where they are funded and happening. Otherwise its pie in the sky.

A similar thing happened in Manchester with the Ordsal chord, there was going to be other improvement in the Castlefield corridor, which got scrapped and the Ordsal chord became almost a white elephant

Crossrail, even with a massive drop in rail passengers due to COVID is bettering the post COVID expections and (as I understand it) are only a few years behind the pre COVID predictions.

Whilst the costs were much higher, the funding from London will just operate for longer to cover the extra cost.

Even with the extra costs, almost no one is currently saying that we shouldn't have built it.

The cost over runs for HS2 aren't as big as some make out. A typical example given is saying £65 billion for phase one compared with the original price of £37bn for the whole lot.

For example the 2009 price of £37.5bn when uplifted to 2024 prices (with just general inflation, not construction inflation) gets you to £58.6bn.

However that doesn't include the cost of the rolling stock which has been added since the original price.

The other thing is whilst phase 1 is expected to cost £60 billion to £65 billion in 2024 prices, only the upper finger is ever given.

As such a significant amount of the extra costs are likely to be down to delays in authorising the project or making changes to delays.
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
2,009
How challenging would it be to have unground walkway between St Pancras and Euston? Granted it wouldn’t be cheap, but neither would a rail tunnel. It is hard to tell one the real distance, but would it be any worse then walking between Heathrow T5 and the far end Satellite terminal.

I do it a street level, however can understand why many don‘t. Mainly rain and having to cross very busy roads.
One will be provided when they build the Euston-St Pancras double ended Crossrail 2 station.
british-library-extension-01.jpg
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
21,993
Location
Airedale
I found a few documents which refer to the interchange penalties from PDFH 6.0 table B4.13, but don't include them.

However, page 148 of the 2023 East West Rail Economic and Technical Report says:


The transfer times between Euston and other terminals are listed at brfares.com. If you add the minimum connection time for each of Euston and St Pancras (15 minutes each), 5 minutes for the transfer time between 7am and 7pm and the penalty from the table above you can get to over an hour.

In the East West rail document, it looks like it is counting the penalty for changing trains at the same station. It doesn't seem to count the minimum connection time for the station for the interchange.
Thanks.

I assume the table refers to the (perceived) difference between a through service and one involving a change of train. It's not about the difference between changing within a station and changing between adjacent stations. I don't imagine PDFH considers these specifically!

It's therefore relevant (in the OP's proposal) to Heathrow-Kent or Birmingham-Stratford passengers, but not to people using those trains to interchange with Thameslink, LU etc - nor even to Milton Keynes-ECML and similar (though obviously the same-station interchange is quicker and more convenient).
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,625
Location
Torbay
Thanks.

I assume the table refers to the (perceived) difference between a through service and one involving a change of train. It's not about the difference between changing within a station and changing between adjacent stations. I don't imagine PDFH considers these specifically!

It's therefore relevant (in the OP's proposal) to Heathrow-Kent or Birmingham-Stratford passengers, but not to people using those trains to interchange with Thameslink, LU etc - nor even to Milton Keynes-ECML and similar (though obviously the same-station interchange is quicker and more convenient).
I don't think interchanges across London are excessively daunting or off-putting for most passengers, though some improvement where possible is always welcome. Services to and from the capital are usually the most frequent and fast in the UK and the inter-terminal transfers by tube or bus are on the busiest parts of those networks. Yes, it's time-consuming, sometimes a bit complicated and occasionally uncomfortably overcrowded, but it is generally dependable and often included in the national rail fare. A 3-mile interchange between two stations across a strange provincial town where the next bus is tomorrow is completely different. You'd at least want to allow enough time to comfortably do the walk if say you couldn't find a taxi. Clearly, many people choosing rail through London will also have the option of driving. That is not quick either going through the city or around it by M25. For 180 degree crossings the orbital route is a long way round and there's a risk of disruption and delay, which also applies crossing closer in, trying to avoid charging zones where relevant. There's no perfect way across London but it does have the most developed and well known local transport network in the UK. I don't believe there's massive latent demand just waiting to be unlocked by a massive notional superhub where all London trains could meet. The Euston Road termini are actually very close and represent a good approximation of such a multi-terminal 'railport' for many long distance services. A tube transfer between Euston and St Pancras can take longer and involve nearly as much distance on foot as a direct surface walk between them. There's much potential to dramatically improve the walking route, especially if an east side entrance to Euston is constructed. It is approximately 500m between the terminals at that point in a straight line along Phoenix Rd and Brill Place.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,967
It is approximately 500m between the terminals at that point in a straight line along Phoenix Rd and Brill Place.

Quite. It is about 550m from the Eversholt St entrance of Euston to the Midland Road entrance of St Pancras. That’s less than from Heathrow Central tube to Terminal 3 check in, or Terminal 3 check in to most of the T3 gates, or perhaps more appropriately, the St Pancras Thameslink platforms to the Victoria line platforms.

Euston to St P is one of those links where the distance is significantly longer in mental terms than physical.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,625
Location
Torbay
Euston to St P is one of those links where the distance is significantly longer in mental terms than physical.
Those mental terms can be adjusted by physical measures. An eastern well-signposted entrance for Euston. Public realm shared space improvement along a predominantly access only Phoenix Rd. Possible assistance cart and luggage trolley service between termini...
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
3,982
Location
Newport
Quite. It is about 550m from the Eversholt St entrance of Euston to the Midland Road entrance of St Pancras. That’s less than from Heathrow Central tube to Terminal 3 check in, or Terminal 3 check in to most of the T3 gates,
No comparison with the level of safety and security in and around air terminals.

Fine for me (a confident bloke with a backpack) but not something I would recommend to anyone else, let alone at all hours.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,967
No comparison with the level of safety and security in and around air terminals.

Fair point.

Fine for me (a confident bloke with a backpack) but not something I would recommend to anyone else, let alone at all hours.

Mrs BR and eldest sprog BR both do the route as a matter of routine. (Doric Way, Levita House, Dangoor Walk). The recent sprucing up of Levita House makes it more friendly.
 

Indigo Soup

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
1,488
I don't think interchanges across London are excessively daunting or off-putting for most passengers, though some improvement where possible is always welcome.
I think you'd be surprised. Getting along Euston Road is one thing. Getting out to Paddington, or one of the southern terminals, can be quite daunting - especially for those that can't use the Underground, whether due to disabilities or luggage.
 

Palmerston

Member
Joined
4 Oct 2024
Messages
230
Location
Hampshire
One will be provided when they build the Euston-St Pancras double ended Crossrail 2 station.
british-library-extension-01.jpg
Given how many people will want to go between Euston and StP, if it was possible to have a non-gated airport style travelator running through the tunnel, it could be a very well-used route. Appreciate this might not be possible.

Also, Crossrail 2 being built before about 2040 seems very unlikely.
 

Austriantrain

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2018
Messages
1,814
Ideally being in Schengen would make this feasible however as others have previously stated it's not a popular idea at the moment.

If the UK were still in the EU and in Schengen, and if the Tunnel security theatre were to be abolished, and if HS2 hadn't been curtailed there might even have been a case to simply extend HS1 towards Birmingham and running not only a few, but many or most trains through from Paris and Brussels via London to Birmingham, Manchester etc. It would, of course, have required a completely different HS station for London.

But since none of the above is the case....
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
2,009
If the UK were still in the EU and in Schengen, and if the Tunnel security theatre were to be abolished, and if HS2 hadn't been curtailed there might even have been a case to simply extend HS1 towards Birmingham and running not only a few, but many or most trains through from Paris and Brussels via London to Birmingham, Manchester etc. It would, of course, have required a completely different HS station for London.

But since none of the above is the case....
The UK has never been in Schengen.
 

John Jefkins

Member
Joined
14 Mar 2025
Messages
39
Location
Croydon
I found a few documents which refer to the interchange penalties from PDFH 6.0 table B4.13, but don't include them.

However, page 148 of the 2023 East West Rail Economic and Technical Report says:


The transfer times between Euston and other terminals are listed at brfares.com. If you add the minimum connection time for each of Euston and St Pancras (15 minutes each), 5 minutes for the transfer time between 7am and 7pm and the penalty from the table above you can get to over an hour.

In the East West rail document, it looks like it is counting the penalty for changing trains at the same station. It doesn't seem to count the minimum connection time for the station for the interchange.
Exactly.
The 65 minutes figure was worked out by an expert ( not me ).
He used to work out the data to bid for franchises - so he knows his stuff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Given how many people will want to go between Euston and StP, if it was possible to have a non-gated airport style travelator running through the tunnel, it could be a very well-used route. Appreciate this might not be possible.

Also, Crossrail 2 being built before about 2040 seems very unlikely.
It’s a lot cheaper to just take most of the HS2 trains to those unused HS1 platforms though.
 

John Jefkins

Member
Joined
14 Mar 2025
Messages
39
Location
Croydon
I don't think interchanges across London are excessively daunting or off-putting for most passengers, though some improvement where possible is always welcome. Services to and from the capital are usually the most frequent and fast in the UK and the inter-terminal transfers by tube or bus are on the busiest parts of those networks. Yes, it's time-consuming, sometimes a bit complicated and occasionally uncomfortably overcrowded, but it is generally dependable and often included in the national rail fare. A 3-mile interchange between two stations across a strange provincial town where the next bus is tomorrow is completely different. You'd at least want to allow enough time to comfortably do the walk if say you couldn't find a taxi. Clearly, many people choosing rail through London will also have the option of driving. That is not quick either going through the city or around it by M25. For 180 degree crossings the orbital route is a long way round and there's a risk of disruption and delay, which also applies crossing closer in, trying to avoid charging zones where relevant. There's no perfect way across London but it does have the most developed and well known local transport network in the UK. I don't believe there's massive latent demand just waiting to be unlocked by a massive notional superhub where all London trains could meet. The Euston Road termini are actually very close and represent a good approximation of such a multi-terminal 'railport' for many long distance services. A tube transfer between Euston and St Pancras can take longer and involve nearly as much distance on foot as a direct surface walk between them. There's much potential to dramatically improve the walking route, especially if an east side entrance to Euston is constructed. It is approximately 500m between the terminals at that point in a straight line along Phoenix Rd and Brill Place.

Euston HS2 station is planned to be between 6 and 11 platforms. How are the 3 Southeastern platforms supposed to handle the HS2 traffic on top of what they have at the moment?
Not to mention that they're not long enough to handle 400m HS2 trains.
Even if you could turn them round in those platforms, where are you terminating them? None of the stations along HS1 have vast numbers of platforms where you can sit a train and prep it for its next journey.
There are six 400m long platforms completely unused on HS1.
Two at Stratford, Two at Ebbsfleet and Two at Ashford.
The six 400m platforms at St Pancras are only used by 2 Eurostar services per hour.

And by reversing todays Javelins terminating at the 3 shorter platforms at St Pancras, to terminate them instead 7 minutes west at Old Oak Common, we create enough slots at those 3 platforms to reverse 8 of the shorter classic compatible HS2 trains per hour to terminate them along HS1.

4 Javelins / hr sent west.
8 HS2 trains / hr sent east.
All reversed in around 4 minutes within 24 slots of 7.5 minutes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Yes, but the explicit additional interchange time for a St Pancras - St Pancras interchange to a St Pancras - Euston interchange is closer to fifteen minutes, maybe half an hour, not an hour.
Experts say the interchange penalty is more like an hour.

People travelling long distances- such as Brighton or Ashford or Colchester or Cambridge to Bristol via GWR or to Manchester or Glasgow via HS2 all allow far more time to drag their baggage and to transfer between say St Pancras or Kings X and get to Euston.

It’s an awful interchange. Let’s not pretend that the link from Clapham Junction to Old Oak Common will be much good either.

Taking most of the HS2 trains to HS1 platforms will massively boost HS2 markets. The estimate is a 47% boost from about 70% of London and the Home Counties.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Yes, but where has 65 minutes come from for a St Pancras to Euston interchange?

Interested to know which presentations/publications the slides are from too.
The slides are from my own presentation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I did hope that my above comment wouldn’t need repeating (again), but….









You have said this three times today, and about 6 times in total. Repeating something in a Trumpian style does not mean it is true. Where are these “70%” of passengers coming from, and where are they going? What are the current passenger numbers per year for some example flows, and what does improving the connections - in most cases quite marginally - do to those flows? Given that the entire revenue of the Avanti WCML operation is in the order of £1bn pa, it seems extraordinarily unlikley that your proposal would generate ‘billions extra’.

Can you answer this with some detail without simply repeating what you have already written several times?





I have said twice, and others have said more times, that it is not possible to terminate trains at Stratford from the west, nor is it practical to adjust the track layout to do so. Why are you ignoring this obvious flaw to your proposal when it has been pointed out several times?




I and others have pointed out that there are 7 ”Javelins” per hour at peak times, likely to be 8 next year. Again, why are you ignoring this ?




Again, you have stated this three times today and at least six times in total. Repeating something that is wrong does not make it right.









And again (sigh), repeating something multiple times does not make it correct.

To make the ‘existing’ link to the NLL (not NNL) would need rather more work that replacing a couple of bridge spans - which in central Camden is not by any means simple. For one thing the first GC trains to pass each other at Primrose Hill would collide due to the track separation not being fit for GC. All the tracks would need moving, all the signalling replaced, all the OLE replaced (much of which will be out of gauge anyway) all the structures replaced - including the viaduct that runs right through the middle of Camden, which is very definitely not gauged for the GC KE (Kinematic Envelope - you have checked this, right?). And you still need provision for conventional freight and passenger services to operate between Camden Rd and Camden Junction in the WCML. Yet again, why are you ignoring this?


Finally, I’ll give you one more thing to think about. The line speed from St Pancras round the link to the NLL is 40km/h (25mph), and would be lower still to accommodate the significant extra pointwork needed to access the domestic platfroms. The linespeed on the NLL through Camden and on to Primrose Hill is 20mph due to the alignment. It would also be about 600 metres further to the bufferstops on P11-13 at St Pancras (and a further 200 metres to the bufferstops on the Eurostar platforms) from OOC than it is to the buffer stops at Euston HS2. The Euston layout is designed specifically to accommodate the acceleration and braking potential of the trains: 60km/h from the bufferstops, then progressive increases to 160km/h at the same point where your proposed portal is at Primrose Hill. The tail end of a train from Euston will be doing 140km/h + by that point, whereas the tail end of a train from St Pancras will be doing 30km/h, nearly 3km (and over 4 minutes) into its journey.

The HS2 time from Euston to OOC start to stop is 5 minutes. Even using the current linespeeds at St Pancras, ie not the reduced speeds due to the necessary changes to the layout, the time from St Pancras domestic platforms to OOC by your proposal would be, by my estimate, 8.5 minutes, ie 3.5 minutes worse, plus another half minute if using the international platforms. (These times are naturally estimates and may be out by 10% or so, but they are calculated on the same basis so are directly comparable as the error margin will be the same for both).

What allowance have you made for the lost revenue and socio-economic benefit from all the HS2 passengers heading to central London via St Pancras due to this time loss?

A final plea - can you please try to answer these points without resorting to repeating what you have already written several times?
There are not 7 Javelins per hour into St Pancras.
Repeating that doesn’t make it right.
Talk to the drivers as I have.
 
Last edited:

bspahh

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2017
Messages
2,447
There are not 7 Javelins per hour into St Pancras.
Repeating that doesn’t make it right.
Talk to the drivers as I have.
Between 0800 and 0900 on Monday RealTimeTrains lists 14 movements in platforms 11-13

WTT Starts here 12 1L14 SE Ramsgate 0804
WTT 0805 Broadstairs 11 1C13 SE Terminates here
WTT 0814 Margate 12 1J13 SE Terminates here
WTT Starts here 13 1C14 SE Ramsgate 0820
WTT 0824 Sandwich 13 1L13 SE Terminates here
WTT Starts here 11 5J14 SE Ashford Down Sidings 0825
WTT Starts here 12 5J66 SE Ashford Down Sidings 0828
WTT 0837 Broadstairs 12 1C15 SE Terminates here
WTT Starts here 13 1J16 SE Margate 0840
WTT 0843 Margate 11 1J15 SE Terminates here
WTT 0846 Maidstone West 13 1T95 SE Terminates here
WTT Starts here 12 5J55 SE Ashford Down Sidings 0850
WTT 0854 Faversham 12 1L15 SE Terminates here
WTT Starts here 13 1F16 SE Faversham 0855
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,279
Location
West Wiltshire
The station has, I understand, never been fitted out on the international side.

There is just a giant empty box where the customs stuff would be.
It is not really big enough, especially with the bad post Brexit bodge coming in, which will slow people through passports.

For those not upto speed, after much delay looks like the wet stamping of UK passports into Schengen area is delayed to October, and the new European visa has this week been announced as delayed to April 2027. In meantime the interim need for double processing will be very slow (compared to eventual biometric scan process with prearranged visa)

Eurostar has indicated that it won't reopen Ashford because number of staff needed for these processes is too costly. It hasn't commented on Stratford or Ebbsfleet, but clearly that's because there is no current plan to serve either.

Of course 19 months of everyone in UK suffering border delays when they go on holiday to Europe might change public attitudes to joining Schengen (it might not, but can't be ruled out). If it does happen the HS1-HS2 link may suddenly become urgently needed. In a sensible world would make provision by adding junction caverns, even if link not going ahead at this time.
 

John Jefkins

Member
Joined
14 Mar 2025
Messages
39
Location
Croydon
Between 0800 and 0900 on Monday RealTimeTrains lists 14 movements in platforms
There could be 30 slots of 6 minutes each per hour on those 3 platforms and I’m suggesting that platform 10 is also setup to allow some use in that rush hour. Flexibility to cope with rush hour.

Normally there really are only 4 Javelins in and out - using 8 slots.

And what I’m proposing would mean that the 8 HS2 trains per hour using HS1 would carry a load of the proposed extra Javelins with Javelins also carrying people across London to either OOC or Heathrow.

There are multiple options here for using the 9 St Pancras and 6 unused 400m long HS1 platforms at Stratford , Ebbsfleet and Ashford for most of the HS2 trains - eg ALL of them until HS2 reaches Manchester and most of them when it gets to Leeds.

In the meantime we’d not need anything at Euston and it can be built as a smaller number of future HS2 platforms delayed until the rest of Euston gets rebuilt as one integrated new station- with only some HS2 trains ever terminating there.

The HS2 tunnel could run from Old Oak to a junction at Primrose Hill.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top