Should the GBR Livery be Neutral Colours?

[RUK]

I say: a burnt-orange main bodyside, with a reflective cyan / powder-blue stripe + a royal / marine-blue stripe, entwined horizontally; morphing to an "organic" entwined waveform shape at each outer of bodyside.

This sounds like a combination of the West Midlands Railway livery and older colour which they are just replacing with bright orange, and First’s Dynamic Lines livery, but in different colours.

 

[AlterEgo]

I honestly can't see why we can't just have liveries that represent they type of service offered onboard the train, rather than the geographical area it operates in. At the risk of looking backwards, the Intercity livery made it clear what standard of service you should expect onboard. We could then have a regional/express and commuter version. The GBR livery (whatever it's merits or otherwise) doesn't seem to do this, with the only difference being an operating unit name. For me, having completely different rail identities in Wales, Scotland and potentially devolved part of England just dilute the 'unified system' message. Just keep it neutral, functional and representative of the service provision.

I wouldn't object to this. I think the GBR livery is a bit naff though my objection isn't that there's a flag on the trains.

 

[81A]

I have argued for "Rail England" before. The LNER livery could tastefully use Union Flag colours by adding a blue stripe under the red window band.

This strikes me as a good idea-the LNER livery could also be used (with different modifications, as no need for a blue stripe) as the basis for the regional livery. Obviously the regional livery would need to have several variants to suit the wide array of "regional" rolling stock, but the same base could work.

 

[Sun Chariot]

That's utterly hideous, to be frank. Way worse than what DfT have actually done.

I merely wanted to stop the barrage of posts about flags.

 

[Sorcerer]

Having GBR in that font just spoils it. I'm not quite sure why I think SBB CFF FFS in Helvetica looks good but that not, but it just doesn't. Maybe it's because their livery is more functional than decorative?

I think because SBB CFF FFS is usually placed below the windows at the end of each coach rather than at the front of each train between the driver's cab and the passenger saloons. But probably also because it's a functional livery that still manages to incorporate Swiss national flag colours.

I would argue that any "GBR intercity" livery should use the union flag (as intercity operators link three of the four nations), with the St. George's cross applied to regional trains (in England, in the same fashion the St. Andrew's cross is used by ScotRail).

I wouldn't have opposed single liveries for predominantly English, Welsh and Scottish services with InterCity ones being Union Flag derived to represent the entire union even if I think a single unified livery is better. If Rail England were to exist, I would've personally had crests for each region on certain fleets to add some degree of localism (such as the roses of Lancashire or Yorkshire on some Northern trains).

I very much share everyone's same criticism though in that using red, white and blue isn't really a bad idea for Great British Railways, just the fact it's not the least bit subtly applied. For me I'd rank my preferences as single unified national livery, followed by a South West Trains style application for different train types, and the devolved liveries for England, Wales, Scotland and a single union flag based InterCity livery.

 

[Mike Machin]

Actually, with the intention of creating a cohesive feel for the national passenger services on the UK network, perhaps following the pattern of the previous SWT identity really would be the ideal way forward. I live in the former SWT region and the branding was incredibly comprehensive, but the concept of having train’s themselves being in different base colours but belonging to a greater entity really worked.

It really would be incredibly effective if local trains were red, with a few subtle blue and white accent shapes, and white doors. Regional trains could be blue, red doors and a few red and white accent shapes. Inter-City trains would be white, blue doors and a few blue and red accent shapes.

I would suggest that a new ‘one network’ graphic should be designed, probably circular overall but made up from various geometric shapes. This ‘One Network’ device would be used in its entirety on items such as the app, website, advertising, posters, pdf timetables etc. Various small sections of this graphic could be used to form the accent colour shapes on the trains, using the appropriate section of the main graphic device to create accent colour areas that are appropriate to the individual shapes of the rolling stock concerned.

The nation world end up with a very strong identity across the complete network, it would be distinctly British, but would not have the overtly nationalistic feeling of using the flag elements.

 

[Halifaxlad]

How a out we just don't bother with it ?

Some trains in Manchester are in Bee Network yellow.

Some stations in West Yorkshire are in Weaver network colours.

We might as well just keep the existing branding from each operator.

 

[mike57]

I suppose the first question is: Will Scotrail and TfW still exist when GBR finally fully rolls out.

If they do then a red and white colour scheme would have been more appropriate. If not and everything were back under one brand then Red White and Blue is fine.

I personally dont have a problem with our national flags, St Georges Cross, Welsh Dragon, Scottish Saltaire or Union Jack (I have deliberately not mentioned Northern Ireland, as its railways are separate from the mainland system). The appropriate national flags and colours should be used by government run undertakings.

As for the GBR livery, it does look very 'busy', but neutral colours are not the answer.

A bit of a rant... In terms of 'Nationalists' having 'taken over' the flags and our national colours, and people being offended, they dont have to use the services if they feel that strongly, use a different mode of transport, and it is the woke bending over backwards not to 'offend' that has helped fuel a lot of current nationalist views and sentiment. You dont see the same issues in other countries, the French have their Tricolore and it doesn't seem to cause the same problems. We need to own our flags and national identities and be proud of them. If you have moved to this country from another country then one assumes you did this because you prefer this country, If I moved to France and started calling out people for celebrating the Tricolore I imagine I wouldn't be popular. Rant over.

 

[TastyMaltesers]

I suppose the first question is: Will Scotrail and TfW still exist when GBR finally fully rolls out.

Yes.

 

[mike57]

Yes.

In which case I would have gone Red and White, possibly with a stylised St Georges cross somewhere

 

[greyman42]

No, just a gesture and a thought.

National populism is doing us no good. You could say that the colour makes no difference, but subliminally, I think it does.

Why not a neutral name and colour scheme? Progress Rail? Advance Rail? Horizon Rail? Go Travel? Go Rail?

Lots of opportunities and chances without jumping on the GB bandwagon.

IMHO, I think GBR was chosen when Starmer was scared to death of not seeming nationalistic.

There's nothing wrong with national populism and nothing wrong with being nationalistic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2026 ==

I find the livery objectionable but only because it looks like it was designed by a toddler off their face on Haribo, it is way too busy. The 68+MkIV set which has just been done out in it makes my teeth itch. It could only be worse if they used Comic Sans as the font.

Red, white, and blue works well on a train livery (photo from Wikimedia Commons):

That's great!

 

[NCT]

Good colour schemes are usually simple, matt, metallic, or brilliant. The blue in the union flag is none of those things. There are already a lot of things that are red - Royal Mail / post office, telephone boxes, London buses.

There are good reasons for certain industries to be nationalised, and if every time the instinct is to use the flag as the colour scheme life would become rather dull.

 

[Jim the Jim]

I quite like the livery and think red, white and blue are pretty much the best colours for trains regardless of patriotic considerations.

Personally though I would have gone with different liveries for different service types. E.g. white for commuter trains, blue for regional services and red for intercity. (You could have detailing in the other colours but with a single main colour for each.) I somewhat disapprove of the current system of fragmented liveries, but it can make it easier to differentiate trains even without knowledge of rolling stock. Where faced with a choice, people can remember they need to get "the blue train" or whatever which ought to make things easier for them.

 

[NCT]

I'm weary about white, or even light grey (Thameslink) - gets dirty too easily. I'll miss the classy dark colours of GWR and EMR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm weary about white, or even light grey (Thameslink) - gets dirty too easily. I'll miss the classy dark colours of GWR and EMR.

I'll miss GWR too, I just love the whole branding package from start to finish. I know some find it twee though.

The Avanti colours on the other hand - get them red, white and blue-ed ASAP. It really is lackadaisical, like the whole TOC has been throughout bar the quite nice seats!

 

[HSTEd]

I was somewhat joking earlier, but overall black with silver on the contrast features would probably look quite nice.......

Pity we can't have the unfinished stainless steel look which is quite popular in Sweden!

 

[TastyMaltesers]

I was somewhat joking earlier, but overall black with silver on the contrast features would probably look quite nice.......

Alas that would be a bit uncomfortable in the summer!

 

[Western Lord]

I find some peoples enthusiasm for a uniform livery somewhat amusing, being old enought to remember when everything was blue and grey and many people moaned about it. Different liveries started under BR with sectorisation and I see no reason why, going forward, we should be saddled with a uniform livery. The colour of the train is the last thing that most passengers care about.

 

[Sorcerer]

I find some peoples enthusiasm for a uniform livery somewhat amusing, being old enought to remember when everything was blue and grey and many people moaned about it. Different liveries started under BR with sectorisation and I see no reason why, going forward, we should be saddled with a uniform livery. The colour of the train is the last thing that most passengers care about.

Uniform liveries can signify a consistent unified brand image. Of course it's quite rare to find a perfectly uniform livery across an entire national fleet (even SBB with it's red and white has significant blue on it's Zurich S-Bahn trains for example) but a single company should have as close to one as possible. This wouldn't be mutually exclusive with sectorisation if done like South West Trains by using the same colours applied differently which seems to be a decent compromise for those wanting a uniform brand image and sectorised services.

 

[MattRat]

Better rename the National Health Service then. Bit too nationalistic.

You just made me realize there was a missed opportunity to name GBR the NRS instead, the National Rail Service. Then use NHS colours for the livery.

Something people can rally around, without it looking like trying to win over Reform voters, or people that watch GB news

 

[Stossgebet]

So, nationalism has no place on a nationalised railway. Right... hmmm.

I think the OP is just 'wanting' or 'chosing' to be offended.

That the colours are of the flag is irrelevant. NSE was a wonderful livery. The GBR livery can and should be much better. The design itself is the problem, and wouldn't work irrespective of what colours were used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That the colours are of the flag is irrelevant. NSE was a wonderful livery. The GBR livery can and should be much better. The design itself is the problem, and wouldn't work irrespective of what colours were used.

Yep, it's just not a very good pattern. If you did the TPE livery shape in GBR colours it would work better for instance. I saw someone did that in a thread ages ago and it did look good.

 

[NER1621]

and it is the woke bending over backwards not to 'offend' that has helped fuel a lot of current nationalist views and sentiment.

People trying a bit too hard not to offend are responsible for morons in balaclavas calling lifeboat crew traitors?

It would be useful if some contributors could learn the difference between “nationalism” and “patriotism”. Criticising the former does not mean that you are against the latter.

And anyway, the correct colours for trains are green and a rich red-brown. With gold lining.

 

[Stossgebet]

People trying a bit too hard not to offend are responsible for morons in balaclavas calling lifeboat crew traitors?

It would be useful if some contributors could learn the difference between “nationalism” and “patriotism”. Criticising the former does not mean that you are against the latter.

And anyway, the correct colours for trains are green and a rich red-brown. With gold lining.

On left wing forum like this, and elsewhere. I see lots of people who proudly display nationalism.... just for countries other than their own! They are nimby nationalists

 

[Russel]

On left wing forum like this, and elsewhere. I see lots of people who proudly display nationalism.... just for countries other than their own! They are nimby nationalists

I do agree with this, and I'm quite left wing.

This attitude of nationalism for other countries = good, nationalism for the UK = bad that we see from a lot of the left is probably driving a decent number of voters to the right.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I was somewhat joking earlier, but overall black with silver on the contrast features would probably look quite nice.......

Pity we can't have the unfinished stainless steel look which is quite popular in Sweden!

It’s the chosen look in New South Wales too. Obviously on their old silver electric sets it was real, but the succeeding modern trains from the 2000s and 2010s are painted the same colour. Only in the last couple of years have they started to go for black instead. Black and orange, compared to silver and yellow.

 

[styles]

I don't really mind the GBR livery. Don't see an issue with it representing the union flag either. It could be made a little better but I don't think it's as awful as many make out.

But otherwise, I'm in favour of single colour livery. GWR and Caledonian Sleeper look smart. ScotRail would if they just kept the logo which is centered on the unit and removed the extra faded saltire spanning the whole side. TfW looks smart, though they felt the need to add a small extra colour strip at the top. Lumo looks smart apart from their silly logo. Obviously you do need a second colour for the door so it contrasts, but blue with either a red or white door would work, both of which are colour-blind "safe". Keep it simple. It'll also save money in design costs, because people, somewhere, are being paid to adapt the current GBR livery for all the different rolling stock.

 

[TastyMaltesers]

I don't really mind the GBR livery. Don't see an issue with it representing the union flag either. It could be made a little better but I don't think it's as awful as many make out.

But otherwise, I'm in favour of single colour livery. GWR and Caledonian Sleeper look smart. ScotRail would if they just kept the logo which is centered on the unit and removed the extra faded saltire spanning the whole side. TfW looks smart, though they felt the need to add a small extra colour strip at the top. Lumo looks smart apart from their silly logo. Obviously you do need a second colour for the door so it contrasts, but blue with either a red or white door would work, both of which are colour-blind "safe". Keep it simple. It'll also save money in design costs, because people, somewhere, are being paid to adapt the current GBR livery for all the different rolling stock.

I think a reasonable comprimise between the current GBR livery and your suggestion would be to keep the current livery on the end vehicles, but have the intermediate cars plain blue with white doors.

 

[styles]

I think a reasonable comprimise between the current GBR livery and your suggestion would be to keep the current livery on the end vehicles, but have the intermediate cars plain blue with white doors.

Yeah I must admit the one thing I'm not too keen on in the current GBR design is the haphazard lines being on every unit.

 

[m0ffy]

Personally, I think it works better as static branding (which does look decent, conveying a sense of speed and modernity). On vehicles, less is more.