Should passengers vote for TOCs?

[yorksrob]

I agree it is very much down to individual circummstances. Someone living in Maidstone for example, isn't going to have as much leeway as someone further up the line in Bromley.

 

[Dave1987]

I do see your point of view Richmondcommu. Sorry I am sterio typing which I really shouldn't do and for that I apologise. It's just some commuters really don't seem to get that on some lines the trains are as long as they can be or there is no additional stock to make the trains longer. Or there are no extra paths to add additional services. I think that TOC's deliberately make peak fares as expensive as they are to try and discourage people from travelling during the peak as it is so crowded. I think the only way of solving it is to ban walk up train travel and convert to an airline style have to book before you travel.

 

[Mintona]

I'll never understand why commuters complain so. If I used a company that I despised as much as commuters do the railway, then I would change my habits, and start driving/getting a bus to work instead.

Voting with your feet sends out a much clearer message than complaining on an Internet message board.

 

[CNash]

"Voting with your feet" assumes that there are alternative methods of travel that are equal in most ways - speed, convenience, price. Cars are expensive to buy, own and drive in; buses are slow; both travel at the mercy of local traffic conditions. It also assumes that commuters are both willing and able to "change their habits", as you put it. People's circumstances are always different.

 

[A-driver]

I know trains are far from perfect but I think that to be fair the criticism is far far exaggerated and often based on unrealistic expectations and a couple of fairly rare bad experiences. For example, the other week when the wires came down at barford on the ECML I overheard some commuters one morning at a station moaning along the lines of everyday there is some excuse and everyday the service is this poor and unreliable. Now let's be fair, most days their train may run 2 or 3 mins late but its very unusual for them to be caught up in disruption as severe as that (yes I know they suffered before Xmas with the OHLE problems at hitchin aswell but that's still very rare when you look over the past few years).

Yes trains can be very crowded but often only for a short part of the journey and on stretches of track with a very high frequency of trains at that time if day. There is also a big difference between overcrowded and not being able to get a seat. As for punctuality, trains don't run 10-20mins late every day. It's fairly common to run 5 mins late but that's often simply because the track has to be used way over capacity to provide the service needed. I know I will get shouted down for this but if your train running 5 mins late is actually going to make you late for work then you need to re think your plans and get up 30 mins earlier of a morning to get an earlier train. I often get the train to work and never leave it that tight to get the train in on time.

The cost is high but that's down to the amount of politics involved in this countries railways.

People love a good moan and you are very unlikely to hear people ever saying how good their commute is and how much they love commuting even if everyone got a seat, complimentary champagne breakfast each morning, 100% punctuality and for a dirt cheap price. It dosnt sell newspapers and people prefer moaning to giving praise.

 

[Tibbs]

I'll never understand why commuters complain so. If I used a company that I despised as much as commuters do the railway, then I would change my habits, and start driving/getting a bus to work instead.

Voting with your feet sends out a much clearer message than complaining on an Internet message board.

It must be so sad for you to have such a lack of empathy.

Life is made up of a series of choices and compromises. Not everyone has a free choice of where they work, especially in the current climate, or where they can afford to live.

I would love to be able to walk to my office in the morning, but working in central London means I can't afford a flat that close. Driving into London from a place I can afford isn't an option as there's nowhere to park when I get there, let alone the travel time.

So I get the train, as do hundreds of thousands of other people who are in the same situation. Like 99% of the rest of the commuters, I have my headphones quiet enough only i can hear my music, I'm polite to staff and I keep my bags and feet off the seat. Just as people on here are quick to say that bad rail staff are rare, I would say the same of commuters. Most just want to get from a to b a efficiently as possible. I guess that's why we're looked down upon with such disdain here as we don't necessarily travel because we like trains, but as they were originally invented, to get a lot of people around the country as efficiently as possible.

I realise I'm on a hiding to nothing defending commuters on this forum, but there we go.

 

[Mintona]

It must be so sad for you to have such a lack of empathy.

Life is made up of a series of choices and compromises. Not everyone has a free choice of where they work, especially in the current climate, or where they can afford to live.

I would love to be able to walk to my office in the morning, but working in central London means I can't afford a flat that close. Driving into London from a place I can afford isn't an option as there's nowhere to park when I get there, let alone the travel time.

So I get the train, as do hundreds of thousands of other people who are in the same situation. Like 99% of the rest of the commuters, I have my headphones quiet enough only i can hear my music, I'm polite to staff and I keep my bags and feet off the seat. Just as people on here are quick to say that bad rail staff are rare, I would say the same of commuters. Most just want to get from a to b a efficiently as possible. I guess that's why we're looked down upon with such disdain here as we don't necessarily travel because we like trains, but as they were originally invented, to get a lot of people around the country as efficiently as possible.

I realise I'm on a hiding to nothing defending commuters on this forum, but there we go.

It's not a lack of empathy, I just genuinely don't understand. If I went in to Sainsburys every day, and they hardly ever had what I wanted then I would go somewhere else. If I used the train every day and it was always late, overcrowded, expensive and dirty then I would try to alter my commute. I'd start cycling or walking if it was close enough, or drive/catch a bus/get a lift with a colleague/taxi if it was further away.

It just seems strange to consistently moan about something and yet continue paying to use it.

I've got a suspicion that trains aren't nearly as bad as people make out. They're quick, convenient, cheap (compared to other methods of transport), and generally a nice place to sit and get work done on the way to the office.

 

[Oswyntail]

I have commuted into London for many years (long ago) and my experience in the rush hour there last week confirms that it is a close approximation to hell on earth. However, it puzzles me when said commuters complain that the railways are expensive, slow, dirty and inconvenient - and then say they cannot take the alternatives because they are more expensive, slower, more dirty and less convenient. Sorry, but that is all part of working in a city - and there must be compensations, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it.

 

[Dave1987]

Like someone has already pointed out I feel that some peoples expectations are a little too high. I point to the case with the GEML as that is my line. During the peaks the line is maxed out, there are no extra paths as the trains already run close together, most are the maximum length they can be. Any kind of small delay such as a sticky door or a passenger holding to door open so their mate can jump on can have a massive knock on effect and then half an hour later the whole service is 10 mins late. A lot of passengers complain due to their services being overcrowded and late. They unfortuantely cant or wont see the bigger picture. I know people only care about the particular journey they are making but I sometimes wonder if they expect the railways to magic longer platforms and longer trains out of thin air. When the railways do start engineering work to improve the line at the weekends people complain that they have to have a replacement bus service. Could any passengers please suggest how the railway is possibly supposed to win?

 

[soil]

It's not a lack of empathy, I just genuinely don't understand. If I went in to Sainsburys every day, and they hardly ever had what I wanted then I would go somewhere else. If I used the train every day and it was always late, overcrowded, expensive and dirty then I would try to alter my commute. I'd start cycling or walking if it was close enough, or drive/catch a bus/get a lift with a colleague/taxi if it was further away.

It just seems strange to consistently moan about something and yet continue paying to use it.

I've got a suspicion that trains aren't nearly as bad as people make out. They're quick, convenient, cheap (compared to other methods of transport), and generally a nice place to sit and get work done on the way to the office.

This is a very silly analogy. I hate tesco and I can avoid it by just going to another supermarket, which is no further away, and which sells much the same goods.

If I dislike the TOC, there is no alternative for London commuters.

 

[Mintona]

As I said, they could drive, catch a bus/coach, get a lift, taxi, walk or cycle. There are plenty of alternatives. It's just that no-one ever uses them.

 

[Hellfire]

. Could any passengers please suggest how the railway is possibly supposed to win?

The railway cannot win. As long as the majority of people have to or choose to go to work Mon-Fri between 7 and 9 in the morning and back home between 5 and 7 in the evening then there will always be problems. Even if there was room on the tracks for the additional trains needed to cope with this it makes no sense to invest in more rolling stock which will only be fully utilised for four hours a day.

I realise people do commute into cities across the UK but this is a particular problem in the South East and, given the expanding population it can only get worse. The only way this problem can be prevented from escalating is by government giving companies incentives to relocate to other parts of the country. Of course, they would have to make sure the rail infrastructure in other areas is sufficently robust to take style strain.

 

[soil]

As I said, they could drive, catch a bus/coach, get a lift, taxi, walk or cycle. There are plenty of alternatives. It's just that no-one ever uses them.

You might as well suggest people get a helicopter from say Chatham.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'll throw in my opinion to the mix...

I used to commute through central London, working something resembling standard office hours. It was expensive and I never got a seat.

However, my company is office-based and has changed its working hours. Now we can work 9:30-18:00, 10:00-18:30, 10:30-19:00 or 11:00-19:30. As far as I can tell, these new hours haven't had a negative effect on the company (other than working when it's dark outside, which isn't fun - but my office has no windows anyway so its always depressing). We just know not to book meeting before 11am.

Now, all nearly all employees where I work commute off-peak, which saves money and means we all get a seat . I've also changed my route so that I take an Overground train that isn't bound for a London terminal, then do the final stretch to work by bicycle. Although my commute takes an extra 15 minutes, I'm yet more likely to get a seat, it lowers my travel costs even more, and I get the bonus of some exercise rather than sitting around all day.

Luckily, my partner works flexitime, so we've both just shifted our day slightly, and still manage to eat together.

If more companies and employees were a flexible like this, then they might have better commutes (but I understand that not everyone has an alternative route that they can take)

 

[Flamingo]

I've been reading a Twitter feed from a chap recently who has been pretty vitriolic with his complaints about the Swindon-Pad train service, and the fact that his train is sometimes 4 or 5 minutes later than advertised. Fair enough, you might say. However, reading back on his tweets, he was using Megabus, and was equally vitriolic about their service being 20+ minutes late.

Some people are never happy.

If the same gent was to drive Swindon to London daily I wonder who would he tweet to?

 

[Mintona]

You might as well suggest people get a helicopter from say Chatham.

Actually, from Chatham I would suggest using the Kings Ferry coaches, which run every day as direct competition to the trains.

Either that or drive, using the the M2. If you don't want to drive all the way in then drive as far as say Charlton or Lewisham and then cycle.

That said, I commute daily from Gillingham to Victoria and never once have I not got a seat, and in the 6 months I've been doing it I've encountered a delay of more than 15 minutes on about 3 occasions. I've also never been late for work as I plan my journies around the potential for delays, and always catch the train before the one I need to.

 

[D1009]

I have commuted into London for many years (long ago) and my experience in the rush hour there last week confirms that it is a close approximation to hell on earth. However, it puzzles me when said commuters complain that the railways are expensive, slow, dirty and inconvenient - and then say they cannot take the alternatives because they are more expensive, slower, more dirty and less convenient. Sorry, but that is all part of working in a city - and there must be compensations, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it.

I totally agree. I believe the ones who are complaining the most vehemently are the ones who refuse to travel on other than the fastest train available, allow themselves very little time to catch it, and also very little time to get to and from their work, and anything less than perfection on the part of public transport will not do. These people will never be pleased however much investment is put in. I worked in London from 1974 to 1984 commuting from Reading West, and my journey was not perfect every day, but I usually got a seat. However when my work moved to Swindon in 1984, and I bought a house in Stoke Gifford where I still live, I found it an eye opener how less stressful it was. I think some of those who complain should step back and examine their own life style and whether the quality of life they are getting actually justifies the stress they are putting themselves through by working in London. Money does not always equal happiness.

 

[Flamingo]

The potential problem is, that the vocal minority as described above will NEVER be satisfied, regardless of what any TOC does to appese them. The risk is that eventually, both individual staff and the companies as a whole will say "Enough, we can't please these people, so we are going to stop trying. They are a captive audience", to the detriment of all passengers.

Nobody outside the industry seems to understand the ammount of investment that is put into addressing commuters concerns and complaints. At some stage, the rail industry is going to step back and say "We have done all we can. This is how it is. Deal with it!".

 

[dcsprior]

This is a very silly analogy. I hate tesco and I can avoid it by just going to another supermarket, which is no further away, and which sells much the same goods.

If I dislike the TOC, there is no alternative for London commuters.

Maybe then, rather than having customers vote for which TOC gets a franchise, there should be an attempt to have multiple companies covering the same route.

From many ECML destinations, there's more than one provider (though from most of these, I think East Coast are the only franchise, as Hull Trains and Grand Central aren't?) I wonder if this makes service / pricing better than it otherwise would be?

I'm not always a believer in the idea that competition makes everything better, but I'm not keen on the idea of private monopolies - which many rail routes are.

 

[A-driver]

Maybe then, rather than having customers vote for which TOC gets a franchise, there should be an attempt to have multiple companies covering the same route.

From many ECML destinations, there's more than one provider (though from most of these, I think East Coast are the only franchise, as Hull Trains and Grand Central aren't?) I wonder if this makes service / pricing better than it otherwise would be?

I'm not always a believer in the idea that competition makes everything better, but I'm not keen on the idea of private monopolies - which many rail routes are.

If they run on the same road then they will suffer the same problems-no difference if you are caught in a signal Failiure at peterbourgh on east coast, hull trains or grand central.

That's not what the competition on the railways is about.

Brighton -London commuters have a choice of FCC or southern but most probably don't even realise there are different companies. Both suffer the same delays generally and have fairly similar prices.

 

[notadriver]

Actually, from Chatham I would suggest using the Kings Ferry coaches, which run every day as direct competition to the trains.

Either that or drive, using the the M2. If you don't want to drive all the way in then drive as far as say Charlton or Lewisham and then cycle.

Speaking as a qualified coach driver Kings Ferry does provide an alternative but there are some disadvantages. The service is limited to morning and evening peaks so it doesn't offer the flexibility that trains do. It is subject rush hour traffic and the A2 can be a nightmare. And in my opinion in order to keep time Kings Ferry drivers are very aggressive - changing lanes constantly, breaking speed limits and tailgating in order to provide the quickest possible journey times. I bet passengers need their seat belts to prevent injury !

Parking a car in Charlton or Lewisham isn't easy due to the plethora of parking restrictions and station car parks are expensive.

 

[dcsprior]

If they run on the same road then they will suffer the same problems-no difference if you are caught in a signal Failiure at peterbourgh on east coast, hull trains or grand central.

They may be similarly affected by delays, but can compete on price, service, etc. I knew I'd read something about this recently, and just managed found this which shows a price difference on walk-up tickets of between 9.7% (off-peak return) and 52% (anytime return) between EC and GC.

Brighton -London commuters have a choice of FCC or southern but most probably don't even realise there are different companies.

I dunno about that, I've heard comments from people that make me think they'd avoid FCC trains for journeys such as this, as they see them as similar to an underground train, great for a commute but not suitable for an hour-plus journey.

 

[jon0844]

As I said, they could drive, catch a bus/coach, get a lift, taxi, walk or cycle. There are plenty of alternatives. It's just that no-one ever uses them.

If the train and every option is not viable and commuting to work is a nightmate, there's also the option to change job.

Many people commute because they earn more money in a city (especially London) and figure it's worth giving up £3,000 or more a year to a train operator. If that no longer becomes worthwhile, people can consider their options.

It might not be easy, but sometimes if you want to make a stand you have to make tough choices.

Even in the supermarket example, some people might live very close to a store they don't like and have to travel a lot further away to use one they do - but if you're serious about it, you'll do it.

Failing that, you could approach your employer to see about working more flexible hours or changing your core hours.

 

[12CSVT]

I've been reading a Twitter feed from a chap recently who has been pretty vitriolic with his complaints about the Swindon-Pad train service, and the fact that his train is sometimes 4 or 5 minutes later than advertised. Fair enough, you might say. However, reading back on his tweets, he was using Megabus, and was equally vitriolic about their service being 20+ minutes late.

Some people are never happy.

If the same gent was to drive Swindon to London daily I wonder who would he tweet to?

More to the point, if he were to drive from Swindon to London each day, would he be able to predict within an hour how long his journey would take, let alone 5 minutes ?

 

[moggie]

Why is anybody suprised people moan constantly about the railways? After all, people spend thousands of their hard earned pounds doing something that the majority really don't want to do - WORK for a living. Given any sort of freedom of choice most would do something very different with their lives than join in the daily grind. Simply the vast majority of us have no effective choice and the state of the trains makes not one jot of a difference to that choice.

I think they call that reality - and paying a fee to indulge in the joy of blaming something for your lack of choice in life is why we're entitled to a good ol' moan about trains which are just a small part of that reality. Not that it's the poor sod at the receiving end of the rant who is to blame for one's lack of silver spoon.

 

[HH]

Why is anybody suprised people moan constantly about the railways? After all, people spend thousands of their hard earned pounds doing something that the majority really don't want to do - WORK for a living. Given any sort of freedom of choice most would do something very different with their lives than join in the daily grind. Simply the vast majority of us have no effective choice and the state of the trains makes not one jot of a difference to that choice.

I think they call that reality - and paying a fee to indulge in the joy of blaming something for your lack of choice in life is why we're entitled to a good ol' moan about trains which are just a small part of that reality. Not that it's the poor sod at the receiving end of the rant who is to blame for one's lack of silver spoon.

LOL. Precisely, and it's not a happy coincidence that the very morning that most of us have to go back to work is also the time most likely to suffer delays (due to overrunning engineering works), making this doubly stressful.

This is also why people using the train for pleasurable purposes generally rate it higher.