Should passengers be allowed to sit in 1st class when standard class seating runs out

[Class83]

Trains should be designed so that there is not regularly unused 1st Class provision while standard is full, obviously it will happen sometimes due to disruption or one off events. If this is the case then no it's shouldn't be declassified.

That said other than the ECML, MML, WCML, GWML and Eurostar I'm not convinced by the need for 1st Class. Certainly all former NSE services should be standard class only to maximise capacity. There is rightly a lot of work being done with Thameslink, Crossrail etc to increase capacity, but the increase in both seats and more significantly standing capacity by removing 1st class sections would be far cheaper.

 

[Kite159]

I was on a rather busy Waterloo to Salisbury service last night, first time that I can remember the guard declassified first class. Which is useful for the last service to fit more passengers on board

 

[Senex]

That said other than the ECML, MML, WCML, GWML and Eurostar I'm not convinced by the need for 1st Class. Certainly all former NSE services should be standard class only to maximise capacity. There is rightly a lot of work being done with Thameslink, Crossrail etc to increase capacity, but the increase in both seats and more significantly standing capacity by removing 1st class sections would be far cheaper.

What is the difference between most of the services operated by MML and GWML and those operated by TPE (I'm thinking of Liverpool-Newcastle and Manchester-Scotland) and XC in terms of both stopping patterns and distances? Why should Birmingham-Scotland have first class but Manchester-Scotland not, London-Nottingham yes but Liverpool/Manchester-Newcastle no, etc?

 

[Haydn1971]

Surely the argument here isn't about letting standard class ticket holders use 1st when standard is full, it's more about a lack of capacity full stop and that operators should be adding more and/or longer trains.

 

[jon0844]

But in the real world, you can't do that as easily or cheaply as removing first class (if we want to go down that road, losing revenue that will need to be recovered elsewhere).

 

[Flamingo]

Surely the argument here isn't about letting standard class ticket holders use 1st when standard is full, it's more about a lack of capacity full stop and that operators should be adding more and/or longer trains.

It's got a lot more to do with who defines "Full". In my experience if every last seat in Std class is gone (as opposed to the couple of carriages nearest the entrance) first class will not be much better.

A large number of posts on here are referring to "First Class carrying empty air". These trains are not packed out in Standard, but empty in First. First may be empty, but Standard will only be lightly to moderately loaded.

 

[Class83]

What is the difference between most of the services operated by MML and GWML and those operated by TPE (I'm thinking of Liverpool-Newcastle and Manchester-Scotland) and XC in terms of both stopping patterns and distances? Why should Birmingham-Scotland have first class but Manchester-Scotland not, London-Nottingham yes but Liverpool/Manchester-Newcastle no, etc?

Manchester-Scotland should be part of VWC and have the same trains. Most other TPE journeys are likely to be <90 minutes. I missed out XC from my comment, they should have 1st class as they operate long distance services. In any system there would be oddities, but where the primary function of the operator is long distance travel e.g. London to Edinburgh/Glasgow/Cardiff/Manchester/Sheffield/Penzance or XC with Newcastle to Bristol (and beyond) then 1st Class allows the option to do some work on the train, the 1st stop places on these routes such as Birmingham or Bristol do generally end up with Long-Distance trains, but many services run through these stations to subsequent destinations. Where journeys are generally <90 minutes and capacity is constrained such as in the South East and on TPE then I don't see the point in 1st Class.

 

[mrredrunner100]

So pax on the KGX to INV train should not be allowed to pay for 1st Class seats if they are only going to York, because that's only two hours? Either a train has 1st Class or it doesn't, and where it does then it has to be available for anyone prepared to pay for it.

what i meant is that on the long haul journeys such as KGX to INV train should have the carriges for first class (for anyone to use with tickets regardless if it has been declassified or not (depends on the situation)) but on other journeys either reduce the amount of first class carriges used or take them out completly

 

[frodshamfella]

I booked an advance first class ticket recently on the oh so overcrowded (4 coach) XC services from Birmingham to Oxford ( Friday night ) just so I knew I could get a seat and room for my luggage. I was grateful for it when I soon saw standard fare passengers squished. I probably wouldn't have felt too happy, if me forking out extra meant nothing, and the one first class carriage was also rammed. I would think the answer would be more carriages, particularly on busy Friday evenings. I presume there will be a whole host of reason why a longer train isn't possible !?

 

[najaB]

I would think the answer would be more carriages, particularly on busy Friday evenings. I presume there will be a whole host of reason why a longer train isn't possible !?

Mainly the cost of buying and then hauling around the empty carriages the other six days of the week.

 

[jimm]

Trains should be designed so that there is not regularly unused 1st Class provision while standard is full, obviously it will happen sometimes due to disruption or one off events. If this is the case then no it's shouldn't be declassified.

That said other than the ECML, MML, WCML, GWML and Eurostar I'm not convinced by the need for 1st Class. Certainly all former NSE services should be standard class only to maximise capacity. There is rightly a lot of work being done with Thameslink, Crossrail etc to increase capacity, but the increase in both seats and more significantly standing capacity by removing 1st class sections would be far cheaper.

How would converting first class on LM 350s and lots of the third rail 37x units increase seat numbers? They already have 2+2 seats, same as standard. Bar different seat trim and antimacassars, there's precious little difference. And while the LM 350/2s have 3+2 in standard, not many people seem to think that was a great idea anyway - as ever with 3+2, unless it's an utterly rammed peak train, no one ever sits on the middle seats, as they are hardly a recipe for a comfortable journey.

Chiltern added all of four seats (with no windows to look out of, as they replaced luggage racks) when they removed first class from their 165s.

How would you define former NSE services? FGW uses 180s and HSTs on services between London, Oxford and the Cotswold Line that were worked by Turbos under NSE and Thames Trains.

Could you explain how you can design a train to cope with the fluctuations in demand across the day? The times of the day when there are most standard class passengers are, as Flamingo says, the same times there are most first class passengers. Virgin's first or standard coach on its 221s is a reflection of that situation and was no doubt the result of a lot of calculations as to what was the most productive way to use that space - with the sums apparently favouring the premium brought in by demand for first class in the peaks.

And that premium explains why other TOCs in the South East have not followed Chiltern in abandoning first class altogether and don't appear to be in any hurry to do so.

 

[Senex]

Manchester-Scotland should be part of VWC and have the same trains. Most other TPE journeys are likely to be <90 minutes. I missed out XC from my comment, they should have 1st class as they operate long distance services. In any system there would be oddities, but where the primary function of the operator is long distance travel e.g. London to Edinburgh/Glasgow/Cardiff/Manchester/Sheffield/Penzance or XC with Newcastle to Bristol (and beyond) then 1st Class allows the option to do some work on the train, the 1st stop places on these routes such as Birmingham or Bristol do generally end up with Long-Distance trains, but many services run through these stations to subsequent destinations. Where journeys are generally <90 minutes and capacity is constrained such as in the South East and on TPE then I don't see the point in 1st Class.

I don't think it is just long-distance v. moderate distance (and I think a 90-minute journey might not be too long in distance but can seem an awfully long way in time terms) but rather of the sort of traffic and the market in general. A lot of the SE services are concerned with moving a large number of people to London in the morning peak and back out in the evening and the problem is the best way of managing that. If operators think they can get more money by offering first class and if people will buy this even in the form of 2+2 seating, then why not? XC and TPE do both get commuter traffic i9n substantial numbers on sections of their routes, but both are trying to run an all-day operation and are strongly trying to get business travellers on to their trains. You concede a case for first class on XC and say that Manchester to Scotland should come under the WCML operation (and I agree with you very strongly indeed on that), but are inclined to exclude TPE. I disagree. The operators want to get business traffic between Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Hull, and Newcastle. If people want to read papers to prepare for meetings or to work with a laptop during their journeys, they need more space than is available in the cramped and crowded standard class of the 185s or 350s and they need a level of comfort at least a bit closer to what they would get in their own cars. If the revenue is worth having, TPE need to offer the facilities. The fact that the trains are too short to handle to local traffic that really should not be on such services on certain sections of the routes is not really relevant to the argument as to whether first class should exist or not.

 

[D6975]

I would think the answer would be more carriages, particularly on busy Friday evenings. I presume there will be a whole host of reason why a longer train isn't possible !?

In days of yore, there used to be a whole host of FOs at the tops of columns in timetables.

Nowadays there isn't the spare stock to do it. Almost all routes are run with the bare minimum required (sometimes, you could argue, less). It's just too expensive to have stock sitting around doing nothing most of the time.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if anyone has considered declassifying first class based on the time of day, so signs could be put up to say standard class ticket holders are 'welcome' to use first class between the hours of, say, 1030 and 1600. Or, more likely the times you can NOT use it, so as to allow usage early morning and late at night without having to complicate things too much.

That would then mean a TOC could state it offers more seating, while reserving seats during the busy periods where people would be expected to pay.

Anyone with a first class ticket wanting to travel off-peak would have to accept that for all intents and purposes that train would not have first class at all times, and so not be able to ask for a refund - as it would be clearly marked that first class is only 'part time'.

I am talking only about suburban commuter trains, not Intercity services where it's clear first class should remain first class and it would be up to a TM do decide whether to voluntarily upgrade people in exceptional circumstances.

I personally favour a weekday off-peak first class supplement, available to anyone, which means the TOC making a bit of extra money - but the timed declassification could be another solution.

 

[Flamingo]

Timed declassification would not be needed. If the train is quiet, it's quiet all the way through.

 

[Failed Unit]

I wonder if anyone has considered declassifying first class based on the time of day, so signs could be put up to say standard class ticket holders are 'welcome' to use first class between the hours of, say, 1030 and 1600. Or, more likely the times you can NOT use it, so as to allow usage early morning and late at night without having to complicate things too much.

That would then mean a TOC could state it offers more seating, while reserving seats during the busy periods where people would be expected to pay.

Anyone with a first class ticket wanting to travel off-peak would have to accept that for all intents and purposes that train would not have first class at all times, and so not be able to ask for a refund - as it would be clearly marked that first class is only 'part time

I am talking only about suburban commuter trains, not Intercity services where it's clear first class should remain first class and it would be up to a TM do decide whether to voluntarily upgrade people in exceptional circumstances.

I personally favour a weekday off-peak first class supplement, available to anyone, which means the TOC making a bit of extra money - but the timed declassification could be another solution.

I remember in the past midland mainline used to allow full fare standard opens into first in the off-peak. (And gner allowed free weekend first upgrades) to recognise the price the had paid. However I have travelled on many east coast service were 1st is fuller than standard in terms of % of seats occupied.

 

[pne]

I am talking only about suburban commuter trains, not Intercity services where it's clear first class should remain first class

The "problem" in the UK is that these aren't clearly segregated.

For example, how many people in Reading or Woking get onto long-distance services for their commute into London? (Partly, perhaps, because of the quicker ride than the "suburban commuter trains" from those stations.)

England has a situation as in Switzerland where there is essentially only one ticket class from A to B; your segregation would be easier in a model like the German one where there are multiple "product classes" (as I think they are called there) and you can't use a class-A train such as an ICE or Thalys with a class-C ticket which is valid on regional services only. (And then commuters could choose to buy a class-A, class-B or class-C season ticket depending on whether they favoured speed or a cheap price more.)

I'm sure there are a number of people who would ban commuters on long-distance services from or to places such as Reading or Woking, but it's not possible with the current system (beyond making certain trains pick-up or set-down only there… which can be difficult to enforce).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A campaign has begun to allow 1st class seating when Standard is full

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/campaign-starts-turn-first-class-5166605

My feelings upon this particular matter are best reflected by the title of the song written in 1934 for a 1935 Fleisher Studio short animated film starring my favourite cartoon actress Betty Boop...

"No!, No!, a thousand times no!!"

 

[anme]

My feelings upon this particular matter are best reflected by the title of the song written in 1934 for a 1935 Fleisher Studio short animated film starring my favourite cartoon actress Betty Boop...

"No!, No!, a thousand times no!!"

Personally, I travel in first class from time to time, as my employer sometimes buys first class tickets for business trips. I don't object to standard class ticket holders joining me if there is nowhere for them to sit in standard class. Preferring that they stand rather than use an available seat seems a bit sociopathic.

 

[A-driver]

I can see why people want this but it's never going to happen and is unenforceable and impractical.

Let's take a commuter train running all stations Kings Lynn-Cambridge then Royston, letchworth and London. Say standard is full and standing at Royston with 4 empty first class seats. So 4 passengers move into 1st. Then at letchworth 2 first class punters get on and have to ask standard passengers to move out of the seats. How will tht work?

They can campaign as much as they like but they miss the issue. The railway needs more capacity, not downgrading first class.

 

[GodAtum]

Personally, I travel in first class from time to time, as my employer sometimes buys first class tickets for business trips. I don't object to standard class ticket holders joining me if there is nowhere for them to sit in standard class. Preferring that they stand rather than use an available seat seems a bit sociopathic.

Like A-Driver mentioned, that is very impracticle. What happens if people with 1st class tickets get on-board and there are people with std tickets in 1st class.

Perhaps a lighting system? So if you have a valid 1st class ticket the light on your seat is green, if not then it turns red?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Personally, I travel in first class from time to time, as my employer sometimes buys first class tickets for business trips. I don't object to standard class ticket holders joining me if there is nowhere for them to sit in standard class. Preferring that they stand rather than use an available seat seems a bit sociopathic.

Does that mean "not letting them get ideas above their station and knowing their place"...

 

[Senex]

They can campaign as much as they like but they miss the issue. The railway needs more capacity, not downgrading first class.

Absolutely! We are now paying the price for the civil servants' pressure on the railways always to buy fewer vehicles than the number being replaced (and then to cram more and more people more and more uncomfortably into the new vehicles being bought) and the VT belief already mentioned here that if you offer twice as many trains the passengers will distribute themselves nice and evenly amongst them.

 

[fairysdad]

A random thought occurred to me about this earlier on.

If this were to happen (which to be fair is extremely unlikely), it could actually cause *more* overcrowding on these services as people could think (maybe only subconsciously) "Oh, that train is always busy, but I could get a First Class seat if I catch it and have to stand".

Just a thought to add to the discussion!

 

[anme]

Like A-Driver mentioned, that is very impracticle. What happens if people with 1st class tickets get on-board and there are people with std tickets in 1st class.

Perhaps a lighting system? So if you have a valid 1st class ticket the light on your seat is green, if not then it turns red?

True - but I wasn't really talking about the practicalities of such a system. I was more interested in the psychology of the first class passenger, and the rather insulting mindset sometimes ascribed to us - i.e. that we would rather standard class passengers have to stand than have them sit next to us.

 

[Goldfish62]

This tedious argument has gone on since the day I was borne, which was a very long time ago. I'm sure there's more than a small element of inverted snobbery involved.

 

[plymothian]

Looking at a particular twitter conversation with FGW re standing in 1st class corridor when the train is (quote) packed (unquote) is akin to apartheid. The passenger will be seeking legal advice about being told to move, allegedly. Unfortunately the passenger has also accused the guard of being racist.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Looking at a particular twitter conversation with FGW re standing in 1st class corridor when the train is (quote) packed (unquote) is akin to apartheid. The passenger will be seeking legal advice about being told to move, allegedly. Unfortunately the passenger has also accused the guard of being racist.

Flamingo's popcorn machine will be taking quite the pounding if that ever happens!

 

[jon0844]

This tedious argument has gone on since the day I was borne, which was a very long time ago. I'm sure there's more than a small element of inverted snobbery involved.

I do think a lot of people who travel first class are not doing so just to look down on everyone else, while there are plenty of people who seem to look at people in first class in a negative and very judgemental way.

 

[Marton]

I do think a lot of people who travel first class are not doing so just to look down on everyone else, while there are plenty of people who seem to look at people in first class in a negative and very judgemental way.

Well said. Some need space to work and relative privacy such as in the 1 of 2+1.