*Should* Network SouthEast return?

[bramling]

The "mayoral pollution" is essential when London is asked to fund most of it's own upgrades even if they benefit the wider SE or indeed country. Frankly Londoners are fed up of everyone else having their hands in our pockets and still whinging.

This is exactly the reason why I would like to see it decoupled from the mayor. The wider south-east contributes just as disproportionately as London does, yet all we hear is people like Khan whinging.

There is absolutely no reason why Moorgate to Stevenage or Liverpool Street to Cheshunt should be treated any differently to London to Cambridge - they’re both commuter services which form part of a strategic rail network.

 

[Hadders]

Couple of videos on NSE are worth a watch

 

[tbtc]

People seem happy to treat some services differently to others, when it comes to classifying some services as NSE, but don't like the idea that some services should be treated differently to others when it comes to being under the London Overground umbrella?

West Coast is what it's been known as for years even though you're correct in saying it doesn't spend much time actually on the coast. That branding would work fine, and indeed was what BR called the shadow franchise.

Oh, I know, I just think it's a daft name for those services - Euston to New Street services are closer to the east coast than to the west coast - the Holyhead trains are "North Coast" services as far as Flint - the current franchise doesn't fit neatly into any simple geographic description, so I'm fine with a non-geographic name like Avanti

Personally, I think NSE branding would work on most modern trains-it's a fairly simple livery that moulds to the shape of the train well. I don't think it ever looked good on Networkers, but it looked the absoloute business on the class 159s and Turbo units. It could work on 377s and the new Abelio stock you might be able to get away with it. NSE probably would have changed their branding anyway come 1996 had it survived. I think there was a thread I read on here once that mentioned BR were planning a new IC livery for 1996 had privatisation not happened. I think liveries nowadays tend to have a solid colour rather than stripes or patches, which was a very 80s/90s style of design.

For the Overground and Crossrail, I'd just envision the NSE logo slapped on the cab end and maybe on the side.

BR changed the NSE branding during the (roughly) ten years that the colour scheme existed (changing from the diagonal ends to fully horizontal stripes)

But then BR changed InterCity several times too - people get misty eyed about one snapshot in time despite the fact that BR kept tinkering with things

Maybe, if you wanted a modern version of NSE, you'd have the Stagecoach SWT/ EMT liveries as a starting point?

This is exactly the reason why I would like to see it decoupled from the mayor. The wider south-east contributes just as disproportionately as London does, yet all we hear is people like Khan whinging.

There is absolutely no reason why Moorgate to Stevenage or Liverpool Street to Cheshunt should be treated any differently to London to Cambridge - they’re both commuter services which form part of a strategic rail network.

...but TfW services form part of a strategic network too - should they be removed from Cardiff Bay's control and run by Westminster?

There seems to be a lot of "I don't like Sadiq Khan, so I don't want London to have control over London services" here.

 

[Mikey C]

Personally, I think NSE branding would work on most modern trains-it's a fairly simple livery that moulds to the shape of the train well. I don't think it ever looked good on Networkers, but it looked the absoloute business on the class 159s and Turbo units. It could work on 377s and the new Abelio stock you might be able to get away with it. NSE probably would have changed their branding anyway come 1996 had it survived. I think there was a thread I read on here once that mentioned BR were planning a new IC livery for 1996 had privatisation not happened. I think liveries nowadays tend to have a solid colour rather than stripes or patches, which was a very 80s/90s style of design.

For the Overground and Crossrail, I'd just envision the NSE logo slapped on the cab end and maybe on the side.

I'd disagree in that, to me the NSE livery really suited the Networkers, and is far better than any of the dull Connex or "white" Southeastern liveries they subsequently wore

 

[bramling]

People seem happy to treat some services differently to others, when it comes to classifying some services as NSE, but don't like the idea that some services should be treated differently to others when it comes to being under the London Overground umbrella?



Oh, I know, I just think it's a daft name for those services - Euston to New Street services are closer to the east coast than to the west coast - the Holyhead trains are "North Coast" services as far as Flint - the current franchise doesn't fit neatly into any simple geographic description, so I'm fine with a non-geographic name like Avanti



BR changed the NSE branding during the (roughly) ten years that the colour scheme existed (changing from the diagonal ends to fully horizontal stripes)

But then BR changed InterCity several times too - people get misty eyed about one snapshot in time despite the fact that BR kept tinkering with things

Maybe, if you wanted a modern version of NSE, you'd have the Stagecoach SWT/ EMT liveries as a starting point?



...but TfW services form part of a strategic network too - should they be removed from Cardiff Bay's control and run by Westminster?

There seems to be a lot of "I don't like Sadiq Khan, so I don't want London to have control over London services" here.

It isn’t a case of disliking Khan (much as I do!), but a case of what’s logical. London commuting doesn’t end at zone 6, it ends at the point where a natural high volume of journeys no longer happens. If you take the GN route out of King’s across with which I am most familiar, in the 1990s this would have been Huntingdon or Cambridge, it’s now pushed out a bit and would certainly now include Peterborough (Kings Lynn is a special case as there’s a significant local flow to Cambridge as a destination). Likewise on the Midland route Bedford was the traditional commuter boundary, but it now probably extends to Corby.

So why on earth wound someone want to split this in the middle at the London boundary? It makes no sense at all from a transport perspective.

Wales isn’t quite the same as the vast majority of journeys will be within Wales, or on those elements of the TfW network which do stretch outside of Wales still in most cases sit very comfortably within the TfW portfolio. You wouldn’t want to split Cardiff to Holyhead into three operators simply because of a governance boundary, Cardiff to Hereford, Hereford to Shrewsbury and Shrewsbury to Holyhead, so why would you want to do this with the London to Cambridge corridor?

 

[whoosh]

I just want proper NSE with slammers really.

Ha ha, an open droplight window, the 'pop' of a bit of third rail arcing, the possibility of a compartment all to one's self - sinking into the deep sprung seats, a One Day Capital Card, and all the stations have bright red seats and lamp posts.
Where's the time machine?!

View attachment 93195
View attachment 93196
Would certainly brighten up a 700 to bring back the old Aquafresh Livery ... With new DDA Compliant Doors!

They look great.
I prefer the white, but.... what does it look like in Jaffa Cake?
All this nostalgia about Network Southeast (fully justified), but surely biege, orange and brown is on the horizon of coming back into fashion isn't it?!

It certainly wasn’t timeless though, because if you look at pictures of units in NSE livery and imagine them in use today, it would look horrendously dated. Look at the stations on the Northern City Line that, until recently, had NSE branding - it just looks old fashioned.

I will just point out, in the interests of fairness, that the NCL has indeed had new tiles etc. fitted recently. BUT, has also had new lighting, and also, importantly, the first proper cleaning of the tunnels since London Transport days of the 1970s (at least). This could unfairly taint your view on NSE as it was dull and utterly filthy before recently - but I don't think that was down to the NSE design, but rather the state the stations had fallen into over time.

I'd disagree in that, to me the NSE livery really suited the Networkers, and is far better than any of the dull Connex or "white" Southeastern liveries they subsequently wore

Me too. If the skirts were lucky enough to be cleaned by a carriage washer fitted out to do the job, then especially so.

 

[yorksrob]

Ha ha, an open droplight window, the 'pop' of a bit of third rail arcing, the possibility of a compartment all to one's self - sinking into the deep sprung seats, a One Day Capital Card, and all the stations have bright red seats and lamp posts.
Where's the time machine?!

Ah yes, a trip from Ashford to Brighton along the coast. Thumper to CIG to CIG. I'm there !

 

[Fincra5]

They look great.
I prefer the white, but.... what does it look like in Jaffa Cake?
All this nostalgia about Network Southeast (fully justified), but surely biege, orange and brown is on the horizon of coming back into fashion isn't it?!

Well... Retro is definitely in atm...



Someone else did, ages ago, a non-DDA 377 in JaffaCake - Here

 

[bramling]

Ah yes, a trip from Ashford to Brighton along the coast. Thumper to CIG to CIG. I'm there !

I’d go for it too, but can we have a VEP from Ramsgate to Ashford first, via either route would do!

 

[yorksrob]

I’d go for it too, but can we have a VEP from Ramsgate to Ashford first, via either route would do!

Oh yes, definitely - I fancy via Canterbury West

 

[tbtc]

It isn’t a case of disliking Khan (much as I do!), but a case of what’s logical. London commuting doesn’t end at zone 6, it ends at the point where a natural high volume of journeys no longer happens. If you take the GN route out of King’s across with which I am most familiar, in the 1990s this would have been Huntingdon or Cambridge, it’s now pushed out a bit and would certainly now include Peterborough (Kings Lynn is a special case as there’s a significant local flow to Cambridge as a destination). Likewise on the Midland route Bedford was the traditional commuter boundary, but it now probably extends to Corby.

So why on earth wound someone want to split this in the middle at the London boundary? It makes no sense at all from a transport perspective.

Wales isn’t quite the same as the vast majority of journeys will be within Wales, or on those elements of the TfW network which do stretch outside of Wales still in most cases sit very comfortably within the TfW portfolio. You wouldn’t want to split Cardiff to Holyhead into three operators simply because of a governance boundary, Cardiff to Hereford, Hereford to Shrewsbury and Shrewsbury to Holyhead, so why would you want to do this with the London to Cambridge corridor?

So the London commuting boundary extends as far as Exeter and Weymouth in one direction and Norwich in the other direction, but not as far as Market Harborough?

You want Cardiff Bay to have control of services into Birmingham and Manchester, but not for City Hall to have control of services that are wholly in London?

 

[bramling]

Oh yes, definitely - I fancy via Canterbury West

The nostalgic thing is, just 22 or so years ago this was all entirely as it was, though perhaps with the small chance of Connex livery.

I remember staying with relatives near Lewes within sight of the Cooksbridge cut-off, and it was a constant diet of NSE-livery CIG units at the time, that’s just how it was. The only exception was the occasional VEP, and at some point in the early evening there was an Eastbourne to Selhurst ECS made up normally of 2x Thumpers. Very evocative indeed, especially on a winter evening.

I know my relatives hated the passing of the slam-door trains, as the whistles on the Electrostars are rather more intrusive for them!

Must admit, I’d kill for a time machine. I’d have NSE back for the way it seamlessly integrated mainline travel in the south-east, things have been rather disjointed since.

 

[yorksrob]

The nostalgic thing is, just 22 or so years ago this was all entirely as it was, though perhaps with the small chance of Connex livery.

I remember staying with relatives near Lewes within sight of the Cooksbridge cut-off, and it was a constant diet of NSE-livery CIG units at the time, that’s just how it was. The only exception was the occasional VEP, and at some point in the early evening there was an Eastbourne to Selhurst ECS made up normally of 2x Thumpers. Very evocative indeed, especially on a winter evening.

I know my relatives hated the passing of the slam-door trains, as the whistles on the Electrostars are rather more intrusive for them!

Must admit, I’d kill for a time machine. I’d have NSE back for the way it seamlessly integrated mainline travel in the south-east, things have been rather disjointed since.

Ah yes, that whole journey is very evocative. I still do it occasionally but electrostars and 171's just aren't the same.

 

[bramling]

So the London commuting boundary extends as far as Exeter and Weymouth in one direction and Norwich in the other direction, but not as far as Market Harborough?

You want Cardiff Bay to have control of services into Birmingham and Manchester, but not for City Hall to have control of services that are wholly in London?

It’s never going to be possible to marry every route up perfectly, however the ones mentioned above are outliers. For the vast majority of routes in and around London, it works out fairly effortlessly.

I’m not sure the Welsh comparison is that relevant. NSE was and would be primarily about London commuter services, so we’re talking about much higher volumes of people than the two Welsh services which reach Birmingham and Manchester. A more appropriate comparison would be separating off the Cardiff area suburban services.

 

[whoosh]

Well... Retro is definitely in atm...

View attachment 93243

Someone else did, ages ago, a non-DDA 377 in JaffaCake - Here

Yes, seen that 377 before - awesome.

Great work there on the 700 - doesn't it just look like it's out of the 80s, even with the DDA doors?

Well, I'm almost sorry to say that I do now think that NSE white is more modern looking.


All this nostalgia is great, but I think what we might all searching for is a Corporate Identity that we can all get on board with. Something that is tied to improvements and marketing (maps, tickets, railcards, travelcards), and that encompasses the whole journey from the platform not just the train.
All of that happened with Network Southeast, and although perhaps Southern has been a good brand visually, it's starting to tire on station paintwork in many places.

A similar umbrella of head to toe marketing and corporate identity to NSE I think would be good thing, and maybe what's missing from the railway.

London Overground - if you look at the early line conversions, did a similar thing, with stations included in the conversion, and even seat moquette being part of the corporate design identity. That whole complete approach was part of it's success.

So in my opinion, that kind of thing needs to happen to the railways of the South East. Thameslink for example - it's a great brand name, but it's just another white train with different coloured doors to white trains elsewhere. Bland. But it's been made to be because whoever takes it over in years to come, just sticks a different vinyl on with their name on instead.

Someone with imagination needs to come along and stamp all over this DfT micromanaged blandness.

 

[Fincra5]

So the London commuting boundary extends as far as Exeter and Weymouth in one direction and Norwich in the other direction, but not as far as Market Harborough?

You want Cardiff Bay to have control of services into Birmingham and Manchester, but not for City Hall to have control of services that are wholly in London?

Not really sure that's comparable to the London & Southeast commuter (pre covid) travels.

Sure the boundaries weren't great. Exeter probably shouldn't have been NSE but the line was from Salisbury, which was very NSE!

I don't think NSE reached Norwich but Ipswich. Which kinda mend sense given the traction...

 

[CyrusWuff]

I don't think NSE reached Norwich but Ipswich. Which kinda mend sense given the traction...

Whilst NSE did indeed extend as far as Ipswich, the Network Card boundary on the Great Eastern Main Line was (and still is) Manningtree, in the same way as Huntingdon's the boundary on the East Coast Main Line despite former NSE services running to Peterborough.

 

[JamesT]

So the London commuting boundary extends as far as Exeter and Weymouth in one direction and Norwich in the other direction, but not as far as Market Harborough?

You want Cardiff Bay to have control of services into Birmingham and Manchester, but not for City Hall to have control of services that are wholly in London?

Isn't the main problem with giving services to 'local' authorities that then go outside of their boundaries that people who live outside of the boundary have no representation with those making the decisions? Which applies equally to City Hall or Cardiff Bay.

 

[nlogax]

Ha ha, an open droplight window, the 'pop' of a bit of third rail arcing, the possibility of a compartment all to one's self - sinking into the deep sprung seats, a One Day Capital Card, and all the stations have bright red seats and lamp posts.
Where's the time machine?!

Amazing how one paragraph on a forum can take you right back to the late 80s. NSE had a feeling of 'home' for me regardless of where I was in that corner of the country. It was the backdrop against which young teenage me started traveling on trains to London on my own (child fare Capitalcard in hand) and the pangs of nostalgia are still there to this day.

Is there a need for NSE v2.0 now? I don't believe so. I don't know how it could even work in the post-privatisation era.

 

[bramling]

Isn't the main problem with giving services to 'local' authorities that then go outside of their boundaries that people who live outside of the boundary have no representation with those making the decisions? Which applies equally to City Hall or Cardiff Bay.

I’d say City Hall is much more of an issue, as there is a significant crossover between London suburban services and the more outer suburban services, both in terms of provision and usage.

Wales only has this for a fairly limited area around the borders, and of course for the tentacles which reach Birmingham and Manchester.

However whilst the Welsh enclave is probably the best which can be done, the London enclave isn’t - a south-east network would work better and exist within a more natural area.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2021 ==

Amazing how one paragraph on a forum can take you right back to the late 80s. NSE had a feeling of 'home' for me regardless of where I was in that corner of the country. It was the backdrop against which young teenage me started traveling on trains to London on my own (child fare Capitalcard in hand) and the pangs of nostalgia are still there to this day.

Is there a need for NSE v2.0 now? I don't believe so. I don't know how it could even work in the post-privatisation era.

A recreated NSE would essentially be going back to all the post-1994 train operating units, no doubt with some common standards applied to branding.

The ones which would need attention is primarily GWR, due to the way the former Thames operation has completely disappeared. GA I’d just keep and extend the boundary right out.

 

[Iliketrains123]

Britain's rail network has changed a lot and wouldn't fit into the old sectorisation model.

 

[JohnElliott]

Yeah. When London bus services were first tendered, the corporate image was lost, but TfL then insisted on at least 80% red and prominent branding, so lost brands can be restored with effort.

So give Transport for the South East control over the NSE area, and get them to insist on at least 80% malachite green...

 

[Journeyman]

So give Transport for the South East control over the NSE area, and get them to insist on at least 80% malachite green...

Nah. If we have to reintroduce a retro livery, my vote is for Jaffa Cake.

 

[cle]

I don't think a full network would make sense. Not all franchises need to be linked, and some spread into other regions.

Combining the South Central and Southeast lines with Thameslink and Great Northern however, might.

Chiltern and GWR might work well together, especially with all the future Oxford works/growth and EWR. But perhaps fine apart.

SWT is its own thing.
LNW needs to align with the West Midlands.
Great Eastern + West Anglia / LTS as own or optional.

Overground is good as is (Southern's WLL route should be added and curtailed at CJ, free up Croydon slots for longer trains)
Crossrail is the stickler here. Should it live with GWR or Great Eastern? Or connective tissue them both (and we have a huge E/W franchise and a huge N/S one)

?

 

[tbtc]

Isn't the main problem with giving services to 'local' authorities that then go outside of their boundaries that people who live outside of the boundary have no representation with those making the decisions? Which applies equally to City Hall or Cardiff Bay.

That is a problem if you have a franchise like "Wales & Borders" (which includes some services that run wholly outside Wales - e.g. Crewe to Chester, Shrewsbury to Crewe)

But I don't have a problem with City Hall running routes like Stratford - Clapham Junction that are wholly inside London. Even the Euston - Watford service only extends a short distance beyond Greater London (and remains within the M25).

So, no bother if a future London Mayor wants control over local trains, as far as I am concerned.

It's just that there seem to be some double standards here - fine if the Welsh want to control trains including those outside their borders, fine if the Mancunians want to control buses (which will presumably include those outside their borders - given that GMPTE/ TfGM have had a long standing role in public transport in places like Glossop, Derbyshire), yet people don't seem to like the idea of the Mayor of London having responsibility for local trains... not sure if this is a problem that some people with Khan for some reason? Odd.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is a problem if you have a franchise like "Wales & Borders" (which includes some services that run wholly outside Wales - e.g. Crewe to Chester, Shrewsbury to Crewe)

I'm not even sure that is all that much of an issue.

I doubt the Lancastrians mind the Merseyside taxpayer giving them 4tph to Liverpool rather than the hourly DMU to Maghull they'd probably have otherwise. I similarly doubt the people of Watford are all that fussed about LO going slightly past the border, and I'd imagine anyone who is outside London but has a TfL bus service (e.g. Slough or Staines) are quite happy with it because it's cheaper and better than any of the commercial stuff. There have been issues due to COVID, but that being a 1 in 100 years thing (quite literally, the Spanish flu was about 100 years ago) it wouldn't be a sensible basis to make transport decisions.

I get the feeling that people tend to use it as a vehicle to oppose the Mayoralty if they don't support that person.

 

[JamesT]

I'm not even sure that is all that much of an issue.

I doubt the Lancastrians mind the Merseyside taxpayer giving them 4tph to Liverpool rather than the hourly DMU to Maghull they'd probably have otherwise. I similarly doubt the people of Watford are all that fussed about LO going slightly past the border, and I'd imagine anyone who is outside London but has a TfL bus service (e.g. Slough or Staines) are quite happy with it because it's cheaper and better than any of the commercial stuff. There have been issues due to COVID, but that being a 1 in 100 years thing (quite literally, the Spanish flu was about 100 years ago) it wouldn't be a sensible basis to make transport decisions.

I get the feeling that people tend to use it as a vehicle to oppose the Mayoralty if they don't support that person.

Talking of Watford, the Croxley Link comes to mind as a project doomed by being across a boundary. The main proponent of the scheme was Hertfordshire, but TfL had the purse strings. No votes to lose by cancelling something outside of Greater London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of Watford, the Croxley Link comes to mind as a project doomed by being across a boundary. The main proponent of the scheme was Hertfordshire, but TfL had the purse strings. No votes to lose by cancelling something outside of Greater London.

If Herts had coughed up the full cost, it might well have happened, though. So I don't see the problem.

 

[Wolfie]

Talking of Watford, the Croxley Link comes to mind as a project doomed by being across a boundary. The main proponent of the scheme was Hertfordshire, but TfL had the purse strings. No votes to lose by cancelling something outside of Greater London.

Why exactly should London council tax payers foot the bill for something of very limited benefit to them. Hertfordshire wanted it built but wanted to pay nothing towards it. BoZo was dumb enough to agree to that....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why exactly should London council tax payers foot the bill for something of very limited benefit to them. Hertfordshire wanted it built but wanted to pay nothing towards it. BoZo was dumb enough to agree to that....

Yes, I think to suggest that this was a reason for it not happening is a bit odd. It would never have been looked at at all if TfL hadn't been involved.