Should lone passengers leave empty seat pairs free for groups?

[class68fan]

I usually travel with a large backpack (around 45L), so I have no choice but to put it on the seat next to me (it doesn't fit under my legs/above the seats). This also has the added benefit of giving me some added comfort/breathing room, which, to put it tactfully, helps me greatly (I'm not great in social situations for reasons I don't want to disclose, and the last time someone sat next to me on an airline seat on a Javelin I had a panic attack)

If I gets on a busy train with lot of other passengers to I would go for a seat with a bag on. I have the balls to demand that luggage does not be blocking a seat for a passenger who will be stand now on train.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

I usually travel with a large backpack (around 45L), so I have no choice but to put it on the seat next to me (it doesn't fit under my legs/above the seats). This also has the added benefit of giving me some added comfort/breathing room, which, to put it tactfully, helps me greatly (I'm not great in social situations for reasons I don't want to disclose, and the last time someone sat next to me on an airline seat on a Javelin I had a panic attack)

I sat next to someone who seemed very anxious a year or two ago. He was very friendly but clearly uncomfortable, not helped by the noisy group further down the carriage. He had his suitcase on the free seat, which I (with his permission) moved to the rack just behind us.

I felt bad about sitting there, but it was literally the only free seat on the train. Still, I probably would stand instead were the situation to recur.

He did thank me for complaining to the Train Manager about people in the noisy group smoking. I was going to have a word with him when we both disembarked, just to make sure he wasn’t so wound up that he was going to cross into traffic or something, but unsurprisingly he vanished ASAP.

Having an autistic relative myself, I felt for the lad, but couldn’t really think of anything I could say to make the situation better. One of the longest 25-minute journeys I’ve ever had, especially since my phone was on the blink.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get the impression single people are seen as a nuisance, which is the real reason why we get charged more for overnight accommodation even if we are occupying a room which is single accommodation only (I can see the reason if I am occupying a twin or double room).

It isn't unreasonable for hotels to charge per room (to capacity) rather than per person, because most of the costs that are incurred to them are incurred per room, e.g. cleaning, maintenance etc. Single rooms are often charged a bit lower on the basis that they're smaller and it's only one person, but there's no particular reason they should be charged as half a double room. If you do want to pay per bed, there's the YHA and similar, though that does mean sharing. The only thing that's per person is breakfast, and these days most hotels charge it separately.

This is a bit unlike trains, where there are a few per-seat costs then most of it is for the whole unit - a bit more like the YHA dorm.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2023 ==

I usually travel with a large backpack (around 45L), so I have no choice but to put it on the seat next to me (it doesn't fit under my legs/above the seats). This also has the added benefit of giving me some added comfort/breathing room, which, to put it tactfully, helps me greatly (I'm not great in social situations for reasons I don't want to disclose, and the last time someone sat next to me on an airline seat on a Javelin I had a panic attack)

A 45l rucksack easily fits on overheads other than the silly little ones on Electrostars, 175/180 and Voyagers. A 25kg, 120l one fits on overheads on all Hitachi, Siemens and CAF stock, I had one up there yesterday on a 195 and it fitted easily and I know for a fact it fits on a Desiro and an 80x. I know if it's heavy some may not want to lift it up, and some would argue that weight shouldn't be up there, but you don't "have no choice but to put it on the seat next to you" I'm afraid, this is about the most common excuse for blocking a seat in the book.

Most people do put bags on seats if the train is quiet, but if it's busy not putting a medium daysac like that up is just bone-idle and an excuse. I'll generally stick my daysac up once the last available double seat goes.

(I get your other concern though).

 

[dcbwhaley]

You’re a lone passenger who gets onto a fairly busy service. The only other passengers who get on are a couple behind you. Upon entering the seating area, you see that there’s only one “free double”, and the other free seats are all next to someone else.

Do you:

1. Take the free double for yourself, thus more-or-less guaranteeing two seats to yourself until the next stop, but risking scorching resentment from the couple behind you for your “selfishness”, or…
2. …leave the free double for the couple and sit next to someone else, graciously accepting the thanks from the couple (if it comes, which it probably won’t)?

I promise this isn’t the start of some “railway adventure book”. There will be no more of these “decision questions” from me, at least in this thread…

Let the couple go ahead of you so that they have the choice of sitting together or apart

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2023 ==

Without wishing to offend anyone, there’s fat and there’s US fat. Armrest notwithstanding, the latter is not fun to be next to. Even through clothing, I’d rather not be in constant contact with a stranger. I’m sure it’s not fun for the other person either.

There should be a weight limit on passengers. No tickets to be sold to anyone over 16 stones

 

[Jammy Dodger]

A 45l rucksack easily fits on overheads other than the silly little ones on Electrostars, 175/180 and Voyagers. A 25kg, 120l one fits on overheads on all Hitachi, Siemens and CAF stock, I had one up there yesterday on a 195 and it fitted easily and I know for a fact it fits on a Desiro and an 80x. I know if it's heavy some may not want to lift it up, and some would argue that weight shouldn't be up there, but you don't "have no choice but to put it on the seat next to you" I'm afraid, this is about the most common excuse for blocking a seat in the book.

I have never been on a train which has overhead space that has enough space to fit my backpack (e.g. Electrostar, Aventra, javelin, Desiro City). Some trains (like 720 Aventras) fortunately have enough floor space to put it on the floor, which I can see as the only realistic benefit of their abhorrent 3+2 layout!

 

[zwk500]

There should be a weight limit on passengers. No tickets to be sold to anyone over 16 stones

Off-topic, but for Airlines I think medium-haul should seriously consider a 'total weight allowance' rather than baggage only. You get e.g. 120kgs per person, so I'd be able to take 40-50KG of luggage with me.

 

[lachlan]

I have never been on a train which has overhead space that has enough space to fit my backpack (e.g. Electrostar, Aventra, javelin, Desiro City). Some trains (like 720 Aventras) fortunately have enough floor space to put it on the floor, which I can see as the only realistic benefit of their abhorrent 3+2 layout!

Do the trains you use have luggage racks at seat level? Like those on carriage ends on LNER services. I'm sure your bag would fit in those.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Let the couple go ahead of you so that they have the choice of sitting together or apart

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2023 ==


There should be a weight limit on passengers. No tickets to be sold to anyone over 16 stones

16 stone isn't overly large - it would be better if seats were better designed for the general population (javelin seats are good at this). These "new-gen" ironing board seats on Desiro City, Aventra, IET's (to some degree - they are better than most) are far too thin and don't take into account shoulders. This is exacerbated on 3+2 seating layouts

 

[Bletchleyite]

There should be a weight limit on passengers. No tickets to be sold to anyone over 16 stones

OK, US fat is another dimension, but most fat British blokes just have a beer belly that goes forwards, not into the adjacent seat. Look at e.g. Clarkson who is the typical British middle aged bloke who's let himself go - he's skinny build but with a massive beer gut. That's the middle aged norm pretty much.

The issue with narrow seats is primarily that most average males have shoulders wider than one seat. If you then get onto rugby player type builds (while I am a bit podgy at the minute also, this largely describes me) then it's even worse.

FWIW I'd default to First Class if it was always 1.5 to 1.6 x the price of Standard on the same walk-up fare conditions/restrictions, as it is in most of Europe. I'm not at all averse to paying extra in proportion to the extra space I take up (it is about 1.6x ish), but I am averse to paying a huge uplift for booze, a sandwich and a packet of crisps as well that I don't want.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2023 ==

Off-topic, but for Airlines I think medium-haul should seriously consider a 'total weight allowance' rather than baggage only. You get e.g. 120kgs per person, so I'd be able to take 40-50KG of luggage with me.

That's an interesting option, but how do you deal with the fact that there are heavily built people who don't have a choice in the matter, not just fat people? Air travel already discriminates badly on height. I'd actually like to see lean body size become a protected characteristic in some form.

(As for rail, I'd happily pay a proportionate upgrade fee for extra legroom and wider seat in proportion to what extra space it takes up - but these days Premium Economy, which was born as that, has changed into what Business Class was, priced at a 2x uplift or greater and with lots of random gimmicks I don't want to pay for)

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Do the trains you use have luggage racks at seat level? Like those on carriage ends on LNER services. I'm sure your bag would fit in those.

Even if they did (720's no, 395's only in a few locations in a couple carriages), I'm very hesitant of doing so in case my bag is nicked. I'd be more comfortable if I was sitting next to said rack, but that has never happened yet.

Only time I've had a problem (see my previous comment) was on a Javelin, but 6 cars are far too short for a the Canterbury route, and 12 cars are required for almost all services throughout the day in order for there to be enough capacity. Should follow Kent Council's recommendation for HS via Ashford to be replaced by a fleet of more appropriate (given the stopping pattern) IET's...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have never been on a train which has overhead space that has enough space to fit my backpack (e.g. Electrostar, Aventra, javelin, Desiro City). Some trains (like 720 Aventras) fortunately have enough floor space to put it on the floor, which I can see as the only realistic benefit of their abhorrent 3+2 layout!

I have put my 120 on the rack on a 700, so I'm afraid you're just wrong, unless it's a really weird shape. I've only been on a 720 once and it was without a massive bag, but there looked to be space. Javelins are standard Hitachi, they're as big as they get, so I'm again confident my 120 would fit.

Electrostars, Turbostars, Voyagers and Coradias (175/180) have tiny racks. Everything else easily takes a fully packed 45 which is no bigger than an IATA (56x45x25) hard sided carryon*, which again fits all but those four. My main hiking daybag is a Berghaus 45l rucksack (I use such a big one because I have a long back so smaller ones aren't comfortable as the belt ends up around my upper midriff) and I don't recall ever being unable to fit it on an overhead other than those four, and it'll squash into a Voyager one.

What exact sac is it? Are you sure it's 45l?

* Unfortunately that rucksack isn't IATA carryon sized, it's about 60cm tall with a rigid back system so you can't bend it over to fit in a gauge, but it fits in both other dimensions. Though I have taken it on easyJet before, accepting that it was a slight risk of having to pay to check it in.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

I have put my 120 on the rack on a 700, so I'm afraid you're just wrong, unless it's a really weird shape. I've only been on a 720 once and it was without a massive bag, but there looked to be space. Javelins are standard Hitachi, they're as big as they get, so I'm again confident my 120 would fit.

Electrostars, Turbostars, Voyagers and Coradias (175/180) have tiny racks. Everything else easily takes a fully packed 45 which is no bigger than an IATA (56x45x25) hard sided carryon*, which again fits all but those four. My main hiking daybag is a Berghaus 45l rucksack (I use such a big one because I have a long back so smaller ones aren't comfortable as the belt ends up around my upper midriff) and I don't recall ever being unable to fit it on an overhead other than those four, and it'll squash into a Voyager one.

* Unfortunately that rucksack isn't IATA carryon sized, it's about 60cm tall with a rigid back system so you can't bend it over to fit in a gauge, but it fits in both other dimensions. Though I have taken it on easyJet before, accepting that it was a slight risk of having to pay to check it in.

The main problem with mine is bag thickness - most overhead racks have realistically ~200mm of height when the curved wall-roof connection is made, whereas my bag is ~250mm thick (pointing out from my back, away from my bum!)

(Example type/style of my bag: https://www.amazon.co.uk/YOREPEK-Ta...k&qid=1673872918&sprefix=45l+,aps,162&sr=8-13)

Might be going a little of topic now...?

 

[zwk500]

That's an interesting option, but how do you deal with the fact that there are heavily built people who don't have a choice in the matter, not just fat people? Air travel already discriminates badly on height. I'd actually like to see lean body size become a protected characteristic in some form.

By setting an appropriate limit based on healthy weights and then being very clear on the advertising and pricing that this is how you're doing things, so that nobody can claim to be being misled. Some airlines are already doing this in countries with serious obesity problems, e.g. Samoan airlines https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...line that has,booking to calculate their fare.
If you want more weight on your limit it'd be available for a fee, much like excess baggage is now. But looking at a 120kg starting point gives 100kg + 20kg bag, and 100kgs is a lot, even for the tallest, broadest person.

(As for rail, I'd happily pay a proportionate upgrade fee for extra legroom and wider seat in proportion to what extra space it takes up - but these days Premium Economy, which was born as that, has changed into what Business Class was, priced at a 2x uplift or greater and with lots of random gimmicks I don't want to pay for)

I agree that Premium Economy as on Pendos has been a long time coming. A small price uplift when you just want a bigger seat but not all the bells and whistles of first and the fare that comes with it.

 

[ScotsRail]

What a vile attitude to have.

 

[zwk500]

What a vile attitude to have.

Which?

 

[Bletchleyite]

By setting an appropriate limit based on healthy weights and then being very clear on the advertising and pricing that this is how you're doing things, so that nobody can claim to be being misled. Some airlines are already doing this in countries with serious obesity problems, e.g. Samoan airlines https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/02/samoa-air-pay-what-you-weigh#:~:text=A Samoan airline that has,booking to calculate their fare.
If you want more weight on your limit it'd be available for a fee, much like excess baggage is now. But looking at a 120kg starting point gives 100kg + 20kg bag, and 100kgs is a lot, even for the tallest, broadest person.

My lean weight is probably about 110kg (I am fat on top of that to be fair!) I'm big but people are getting bigger.

If you said 140 that might be more reasonable.

I agree that Premium Economy as on Pendos has been a long time coming. A small price uplift when you just want a bigger seat but not all the bells and whistles of first and the fare that comes with it.

Indeed. Only didn't use it yesterday because it was a nearly-empty refurb (wow, those new Standard seats are good).

 

[zwk500]

My lean weight is probably about 110kg (I am fat on top of that to be fair!) I'm big but people are getting bigger.

If you said 140 that might be more reasonable.

It's for a different thread, but I'd be open to whatever number people thought was fair. It wouldn't be about penalising people with a beer belly.

 

[SussexSeagull]

I could certainly do with losing some weight but the main problem for me in small seating is the width of my shoulders, which I am not sure there is a lot you can do about.

 

[zwk500]

I could certainly do with losing some weight but the main problem for me in small seating is the width of my shoulders, which I am not sure there is a lot you can do about.

I also suffer from this (lock forward in Rugby), and yes the only solution I could see would be a proper rebuild to GB/GC gauge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could certainly do with losing some weight but the main problem for me in small seating is the width of my shoulders, which I am not sure there is a lot you can do about.

It does mean narrow 700 style seating makes no sense.

Now I've seen a 196 in action (similar to 172s) with a heavy standing load alongside a 195, I'm convinced that standbacks and properly spaced seating but no armrests is the way to maximise capacity on urban routes.

 

[MattRat]

I also suffer from this (lock forward in Rugby), and yes the only solution I could see would be a proper rebuild to GB/GC gauge.

Or TOCs and Airlines could just find a way to treat people like people. They should build around us, not the other way around.

Of course sometimes it's not perfect, like the 3+2 on the 720s, but people asked for more seats, and so they got more seats.

Speaking of which, perhaps we should turn our attention to how people react to sitting in the middle seat of a row of 3?

 

[Jammy Dodger]

What a vile attitude to have.

Agreed. As someone who has a "not overly uncommon" slightly wider-than-average bone structure, the amount of times I am squeezed by other's arses, or pushed over by going shoulder to shoulder with other people (which is terrible for my spine), I would just appreciate seats being designed for the population, not for a manufacturer's raw statistics (higher seat numbers on new stock = higher stock increase!).

SWR's new 701 seats look like they may be the best of the ironing board generation (helped by its rational 2+2 config). Looking forward to giving them a try once they are in service

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main problem with mine is bag thickness - most overhead racks have realistically ~200mm of height when the curved wall-roof connection is made, whereas my bag is ~250mm thick (pointing out from my back, away from my bum!)

(Example type/style of my bag: https://www.amazon.co.uk/YOREPEK-Tactical-Backpack-Military-Rucksack/dp/B07PRDWFZK/ref=sr_1_13?keywords=45l+backpack&qid=1673872918&sprefix=45l+,aps,162&sr=8-13)

My 120l is between 25 and 30cm and fits most racks other than the 4 listed. Not 100% on whether it goes in on a Pendolino (I normally just put my bag in the gap behind the seats opposite my preferred seat 45) but I'm *almost* certain it's been in at some point when it was busy. An IATA trolley bag is 56x45x25 and they do fit.

But I'll be honest, I'd just get a more practical daysac if you have trouble fitting it in; on a busy train you'll have to find something to do with it that isn't the seat (because if it's the last seat* available if you won't remove it I will; where it goes isn't my problem, but that it's blocking a seat I wish to sit in then that becomes a problem) and it's sensible to make your life easier so you won't be in such conflicts.

* Last priority seat in some cases; there is stock where I won't fit in normal seats, and having had DVT cramming in is not on the agenda, so sometimes I will sit next to someone in a priority seat over having a pair of non-priority seats to myself.

 

[sheff1]

Apart from anything else, if a man gets on a carriage with a vacant double seat but choose to instead sit next to someone, it could look a bit creepy if the man was to sit next to an attractive young woman for example.

If there are a large number of people waiting to board and when I get on there are only a couple of free rows, I will always take an aisle seat and, if possible, next to someone with smaller build so that I am not 'cramped'. As such a person is, on average, more likely to be a youngish female that is the type of person I wiil probably end up sitting next to more often than not in such circumstances.

 

[trainophile]

A bloke in, I suppose, his early 60s boarded a train I was on today, and made for a table-less set of four seats where a woman was occupying the window forward facing seat. He made a big to-do of taking off his backpack and putting it in the rack over the woman's head, then went to sit next to her, indicating her to take her handbag off the aisle seat. She said "couldn't you sit there?" indicating the two free seats opposite, which is what he did, but even then he took the window seat facing her rather than the aisle seat so they could both have some leg room. I should say that the train wasn't busy and he had walked past at least two free double seats to get there, and it's not as if there was a table or any advantage to choosing that seat. I thought it was a bit creepy. If I'd been that woman I probably would have moved.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

A bloke in, I suppose, his early 60s boarded a train I was on today, and made for a table-less set of four seats where a woman was occupying the window forward facing seat. He made a big to-do of taking off his backpack and putting it in the rack over the woman's head, then went to sit next to her, indicating her to take her handbag off the aisle seat. She said "couldn't you sit there?" indicating the two free seats opposite, which is what he did, but even then he took the window seat facing her rather than the aisle seat so they could both have some leg room. I should say that the train wasn't busy and he had walked past at least two free double seats to get there, and it's not as if there was a table or any advantage to choosing that seat. I thought it was a bit creepy. If I'd been that woman I probably would have moved.

Yeah, that’s not on. I’m glad I don’t witness such things often.

One time, a guy of similar age was chatting to a lad of maybe early 20s on the other side of the mostly empty carriage. A cordial enough conversation, but two things became clear without one having to listen in deliberately:

1) They hadn’t met before they got on the train.

2) The older guy was asking the young guy if he would sleep with him. Over and over again, despite the polite refusals. “Possible? Possible?”

The lad seemed happy to keep chatting, and the older guy never turned nasty, but I’d definitely have intervened if he had.

 

[43066]

A bloke in, I suppose, his early 60s boarded a train I was on today, and made for a table-less set of four seats where a woman was occupying the window forward facing seat. He made a big to-do of taking off his backpack and putting it in the rack over the woman's head, then went to sit next to her, indicating her to take her handbag off the aisle seat. She said "couldn't you sit there?" indicating the two free seats opposite, which is what he did, but even then he took the window seat facing her rather than the aisle seat so they could both have some leg room. I should say that the train wasn't busy and he had walked past at least two free double seats to get there, and it's not as if there was a table or any advantage to choosing that seat. I thought it was a bit creepy. If I'd been that woman I probably would have moved.

Very creepy.

If there’s a guard on board it’s worth mentioning something like that to them, just in case.

 

[Requeststop]

A bloke in, I suppose, his early 60s boarded a train I was on today, and made for a table-less set of four seats where a woman was occupying the window forward facing seat. He made a big to-do of taking off his backpack and putting it in the rack over the woman's head, then went to sit next to her, indicating her to take her handbag off the aisle seat. She said "couldn't you sit there?" indicating the two free seats opposite, which is what he did, but even then he took the window seat facing her rather than the aisle seat so they could both have some leg room. I should say that the train wasn't busy and he had walked past at least two free double seats to get there, and it's not as if there was a table or any advantage to choosing that seat. I thought it was a bit creepy. If I'd been that woman I probably would have moved.

Had the woman paid for the extra seat for her handbag?

 

[lachlan]

Had the woman paid for the extra seat for her handbag?

I think that's beside the point, on a busy train I don't agree with putting your bags on seats however in this scenario where plenty of seats were available keeping your bag by your side does no harm and the man was being rather creepy by deliberately sitting next to the woman (I would feel weird too if someone did that to me)

 

[Turtle]

A bloke in, I suppose, his early 60s boarded a train I was on today, and made for a table-less set of four seats where a woman was occupying the window forward facing seat. He made a big to-do of taking off his backpack and putting it in the rack over the woman's head, then went to sit next to her, indicating her to take her handbag off the aisle seat. She said "couldn't you sit there?" indicating the two free seats opposite, which is what he did, but even then he took the window seat facing her rather than the aisle seat so they could both have some leg room. I should say that the train wasn't busy and he had walked past at least two free double seats to get there, and it's not as if there was a table or any advantage to choosing that seat. I thought it was a bit creepy. If I'd been that woman I probably would have moved.

An obvious indicator of harassment potentialor otherwise. A number of female colleagues have mentioned this kind of behaviour when using public transport.