Shipley triangle..

[BC]

I had to change trains at Shipley for the first time this weekend. Normally I am on a through train on the rare occassions I go that way.

It was... confusing to start with. I've never seen any triangular stations inside a Y junction before. Are there any others in the UK - it seems an elegant way of using land that normally isn't available but I've never seen any others before.

 

[djpontrack]

Earlestown has platforms on 3 sides of a triangle. Dinting is in a triangle but only has platforms on 2 sides.

 

[Roose]

Disappointing.

I was expecting a thread about trains mysteriously disappearing under unusual weather conditions in the West Riding...

 

[swt class 450]

Earlstown and Shipley are the only two that still exist today. They certainly have a unique layout. However i think there may have been others in the past? Perhaps someone can confirm?

 

[DPWH]

Ambergate.

 

[Bantamzen]

Queensbury between Bradford and Halifax was another.

 

[BC]

Disappointing.

I was expecting a thread about trains mysteriously disappearing under unusual weather conditions in the West Riding...

It's Northern Trains round here - they dont need any supernatural weather reasons to make trains dissappear...!

Thanks to others for the replies too it seems that there have been a few but not very common. Which I suppose brings me to the next point as to why is that.. I just guess that when tracks were laid wye junctions tended to be branches to somewhere and so the junction location perhaps wasnt anywhere especially worthy of a station?

 

[class 9]

Disappointing.

I was expecting a thread about trains mysteriously disappearing under unusual weather conditions in the West Riding...

The way Northern are running things, trains do regularly disappear from departure screens!!!!

 

[30907]

It's Northern Trains round here - they dont need any supernatural weather reasons to make trains dissappear...!

Thanks to others for the replies too it seems that there have been a few but not very common. Which I suppose brings me to the next point as to why is that.. I just guess that when tracks were laid wye junctions tended to be branches to somewhere and so the junction location perhaps wasnt anywhere especially worthy of a station?

Triangular junctions aren't uncommon, but it would be unusual for each route to warrant a passenger service AND for the junction to be right on top of a station - the railway companies weren't worried about people having to change!
Shipley wasn't built that way. Much edited version: Leeds-Bradford came first, followed closely by Bradford-Skipton-Colne, and only later by Leeds-Carlisle. Stopping trains remained like that until the Beeching cuts; the platform on the Down curve was added in the 70s (reversible) and on the Up with electrification.

 

[Grumpy]

the platform on the Down curve was added in the 70s (reversible) and on the Up with electrification.

Prior to the provision of the down curve platform, any Leeds-Skipton trains calling at Shipley had to reverse in and out of the other platforms. The platform cost the PTE £30k and allowed up and down trains to stop at Shipley without the complicated reversals and saving some 5/6 minutes stopping time. The PTE recovered the £30k as a result of the cheaper ongoing train service costs. The shorter journey times and enhanced service (from through trains which previously didn't stop) resulted in large passenger increases and consequent revenue growth which was jam on top.
A proper business case. No need to make up non-financial benefits and no ORR to mess about saying you cant build platforms on curves.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Prior to the provision of the down curve platform, any Leeds-Skipton trains calling at Shipley had to reverse in and out of the other platforms. The platform cost the PTE £30k and allowed up and down trains to stop at Shipley without the complicated reversals and saving some 5/6 minutes stopping time. The PTE recovered the £30k as a result of the cheaper ongoing train service costs. The shorter journey times and enhanced service (from through trains which previously didn't stop) resulted in large passenger increases and consequent revenue growth which was jam on top.
A proper business case. No need to make up non-financial benefits and no ORR to mess about saying you cant build platforms on curves.

Hardly messing about. Most dangerous part of railways for a passenger is the train platform interface, which is significantly worse on a curve. We should always aim to improve.

Of course the ORR do let you build platforms on curves as proved at Low Moor. You just have to do some work to justify it, the bit people seem unable to do.

 

[Ploughman]

Disappointing.

I was expecting a thread about trains mysteriously disappearing under unusual weather conditions in the West Riding...

Around these parts triangles mean Rhubarb.

 

[Ken H]

Prior to the provision of the down curve platform, any Leeds-Skipton trains calling at Shipley had to reverse in and out of the other platforms. The platform cost the PTE £30k and allowed up and down trains to stop at Shipley without the complicated reversals and saving some 5/6 minutes stopping time. The PTE recovered the £30k as a result of the cheaper ongoing train service costs. The shorter journey times and enhanced service (from through trains which previously didn't stop) resulted in large passenger increases and consequent revenue growth which was jam on top.
A proper business case. No need to make up non-financial benefits and no ORR to mess about saying you cant build platforms on curves.

I remember that
Leeds-keighley trains used to go over the north side of the triangle and stop once clear of the north west junction points. (Was that junction called Shipley Bingley Junction?)The guard would be on the 'trailing' cab, and once the signal was off, would buzz and the driver would set back into the platform on the western side of the triangle. Once station work done, the train would just leave towards Keighley. No Saltaire station then of course.
T'other way train would go back into the platform on the western side and stop. driver would change ends and the guard would open the cab door at the 'Bradford' end. blow his whistle and wave his flag, then get in and buzz the driver. He would reverse over the South junction and would stop. Then when he got the road would drive through the East curve and on towards Thackley.
Sometimes the train would stop at the east curve platform, but I dont know why.

Think the buzzer code the guard gave was 3 buzzes. There was a black sticker in the cabs with the buzzer codes. (Maybe modern trains have that too.)
Those were the days when the drivers didnt lower their blinds between the cab and the passenger compartments.

 

[Grumpy]

Hardly messing about. Most dangerous part of railways for a passenger is the train platform interface, which is significantly worse on a curve.

.

Is there any published evidence to support this statement, eg deaths or serious injuries as a result of curved platforms?

 

[Grumpy]

Of course the ORR do let you build platforms on curves as proved at Low Moor. You just have to do some work to justify it.

So. Messing about then

 

[BantamMenace]

100m for platform for £30k. Imagine the possibilities if that were deliverable today.

 

[30907]

Grumpy and Ken have given the fuller version of the Shipley saga which I recall from long before I moved here. A little detail - the Bingley Jn - Bradford Jn curve was double track back then.à

 

[Ken H]

Grumpy and Ken have given the fuller version of the Shipley saga which I recall from long before I moved here. A little detail - the Bingley Jn - Bradford Jn curve was double track back then.à

so when was it singled? I think it was singled well before the first platform on the north curve.

Also, when the first new platform was built, did Leeds-Keighley trains still do the reversing procedure or did they run wrong line on the north curve?

 

[Bantamzen]

Also, when the first new platform was built, did Leeds-Keighley trains still do the reversing procedure or did they run wrong line on the north curve?

I seem to remember that the Leeds-Keighley used the north platform in both directions, certainly in the last years in the run up to P1 (as it is now) being built. That platform was, and indeed still is bi-directional and still gets used when there are disruptions on the Aire / Wharfe lines to allow services to be reversed or terminated on it.

 

[yorksrob]

so when was it singled? I think it was singled well before the first platform on the north curve.

Also, when the first new platform was built, did Leeds-Keighley trains still do the reversing procedure or did they run wrong line on the north curve?

I read that it was singled a lot earlier than the new platforms were built because the curve was so severe, two mk1 trains couldn't pass eachother in them. The current platform has been built out to lessen the curve.

 

[SouthStand]

Around these parts triangles mean Rhubarb.

No they don't

 

[YorkshireBear]

Is there any published evidence to support this statement, eg deaths or serious injuries as a result of curved platforms?

Plenty. https://www.rssb.co.uk/Pages/platform-train-interface.aspx. Enjoy reading.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So. Messing about then

If justifying your decisions to ensure the safety of passengers is maintained and nothing is overlooked is messing about then yes. They are the kings of it.

 

[edwin_m]

Accrington was another station on a triangle, with platforms on all three sides I think.

Regarding platforms on curves, a gentle curve is OK but a more severe curve leads to a big gap between the train and the platform. Building a new triangular station using the sort of curve that would be acceptable today, it would be so big that the platforms would be too far apart to be called the same station.

 

[30907]

I read that it was singled a lot earlier than the new platforms were built because the curve was so severe, two mk1 trains couldn't pass eachother in them. The current platform has been built out to lessen the curve.

ISTR the line was first singled using the down platform, when it was still mechanically signalled, with the new facing crossover also giving access to the new platform.

 

[ian1944]

Regarding platforms on curves, a gentle curve is OK but a more severe curve leads to a big gap between the train and the platform. Building a new triangular station using the sort of curve that would be acceptable today, it would be so big that the platforms would be too far apart to be called the same station.

Earlestown's platforms on the east curve are so far from those at the west junction that they seem not in the same station, with a dogleg connecting footpath more than 200 metres long going through a treed area.

 

[urbophile]

I remember that
Leeds-keighley trains used to go over the north side of the triangle and stop once clear of the north west junction points. (Was that junction called Shipley Bingley Junction?)The guard would be on the 'trailing' cab, and once the signal was off, would buzz and the driver would set back into the platform on the western side of the triangle. Once station work done, the train would just leave towards Keighley. No Saltaire station then of course.
T'other way train would go back into the platform on the western side and stop. driver would change ends and the guard would open the cab door at the 'Bradford' end. blow his whistle and wave his flag, then get in and buzz the driver. He would reverse over the South junction and would stop. Then when he got the road would drive through the East curve and on towards Thackley.
Sometimes the train would stop at the east curve platform, but I dont know why.

That is interesting. How many trains did that? All the Leeds trains I ever travelled on went through the then platformless north side without, of course, stopping. As far as I was aware, the only trains from the Skipton direction that stopped at Shipley were bound for Bradford. In those days all three sides of the triangle were double track; the western (Skipton-Bradford) side has since been singled.

 

[richieb1971]

Hither Green is inside a triangle, but it doesn't have platforms on all 3 sides, only 2.

 

[Ken H]

That is interesting. How many trains did that? All the Leeds trains I ever travelled on went through the then platformless north side without, of course, stopping. As far as I was aware, the only trains from the Skipton direction that stopped at Shipley were bound for Bradford. In those days all three sides of the triangle were double track; the western (Skipton-Bradford) side has since been singled.

I seem to remember All the trains from Leeds did that except the loco hauled ones going to carlisle. Maybe someone has an old BR timetable from then.

I think the Morecambes stopped at Shipley. (Except for some saturday trains that did leeds -shipley - Bradford FS - shipley - Keighley -Morecambe and reverse. They were long trains - 8 cars somethmes.)

Wasnt the pattern hourly leeds - Skipton trains with hourly Bradford - Keighley trains that arrived in keighley just before the leeds - Skipton trains for bradford - Skipton pax. There was a reversing siding at Keighley north of the stn.

No Saltaire, Crossflats or Frizinghall stns then. and all mechanical signalling. 3 at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Kildwick (Was that just a crossing box? ) and 2 at Skipton. Think there was a box Connonley - that may have just been a gate box too.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Assume you mean Frizinghall above? Fitzwilliam would be quite a diversion!