Shamima Begum

[Mutant Lemming]

Ha ha. So you want the same kind of justice ISIS provide? Would you like that in our country? If so then why would you have a problem with ISIS? Great bunch of lads. Let's have the same here.

Careful what you wish for.... if we had a People's vote on the matter what do you think the outcome would be ?

 

[AlterEgo]

International law says you inherit nationality from your parents. She had a Bangladeshi parent. So she is entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship. getting UK citizenship does not erase your old citizenship.

International law does not say this.

Jus sanguinis is a principle applicable in some countries' nationality laws. Both the UK and Bangladesh are states which apply this principle to a greater or lesser degree.

Nonetheless, Bangladesh only permits dual citizenship in certain circumstances. One only becomes a Bangladeshi citizen, if one is already a citizen of another country like the UK, by applying for a dual nationality certificate. It is not clear whether Begum can do that or if that is even the proper procedure now she is no longer a UK citizen.

 

[ainsworth74]

One only becomes a Bangladeshi citizen, if one is already a citizen of another country like the UK, by applying for a dual nationality certificate. It is not clear whether Begum can do that or if that is even the proper procedure now she is no longer a UK citizen.

Even if we assume that she could certainly in UK law there is a requirement that an applicant be of "good character". I would not be surprised if Bangladesh had a similar requirement and if so I would also suggest she'd struggle to pass such a requirement even if all the other ducks were in a row to enable her to become a Bangladeshi citizen.

 

[ainsworth74]

Careful what you wish for.... if we had a People's vote on the matter what do you think the outcome would be ?

This of course being why we have the rule of law and an independent judiciary. To avoid mob "justice"...

 

[Killingworth]

This young lady is only one of many residents in Britain who decided to go to Syria to 'help' in a variety of ways, on many sides, not just ISIS. Who did what is hard to prove, particularly in a British court. Who's a threat to whom if they return is difficult to confirm.

This one may, after a decade or so to reflect, accept that she was misguided when she was persuaded to leave the UK at age 15. We're told her father had returned to Bangladesh and married a second wife before she'd left Britain. She might not think her husband was so wonderful helping to produce 3 children in a war zone. She might reflect that speaking without a lawyer present to various members of the media was bound to highlight her in ways to promote many causes, but not primarily hers.

By then she may have considerable reason to believe she had been neglected, used and abused. However, from where she is now it's doubtful if she can think very clearly about anything. She's one of many, the stories of the others as yet untold. The challenge is how they can be assimilated back into peaceful societies, globally. If we can't do that we'll end up with a significant proportion becoming more radicalised, and more dangerous. Not easy to to resolve, but at present I don't see this young lady as a major threat - unless we drive her to it. At present the attitudes of some might help do that.

 

[EM2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis

principle of jus sanguinis is that you take nationality from your parents.

If you'd actually read that link, you'd notice the section 'Jus sanguinis states today' and see that Bangladesh is not listed.

 

[Groningen]

Today on Dutch radio. They (IS-women) want to go home, but they do not distance themself of the IS ideology!

 

[fowler9]

Careful what you wish for.... if we had a People's vote on the matter what do you think the outcome would be ?

Read what I said. I didn't wish for anything. I asked three questions.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This young lady is only one of many residents in Britain who decided to go to Syria to 'help' in a variety of ways, on many sides, not just ISIS.

What sources did you use to support your views that this woman (which one can now describe as such based on her current age) went to Syria "to 'help' in a variety of ways, on many sides, not just ISIS?

 

[tony_mac]

What sources did you use to support your views that this woman (which one can now describe as such based on her current age) went to Syria "to 'help' in a variety of ways, on many sides, not just ISIS?

Is this a deliberate misunderstanding?
There are 'many residents in Britain who decided to go to Syria to 'help' in a variety of ways, on many sides'.
Not a single individual helping many sides.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is this a deliberate misunderstanding?
There are 'many residents in Britain who decided to go to Syria to 'help' in a variety of ways, on many sides'.
Not a single individual helping many sides.

It was just my querying of what were this woman's way of 'helping' were and in the capacity of the help she went to Syria to achieve, noting the ISIS Wahaabist views on the role of women, which she would have known prior to leaving this country. At the age she was at the time of her departure, she would have been in a higher level secondary-school year in Britain where any female Islamic pupils of that age certainly were aware of exactly what the Caliphate stood for.

The problem on this matter is that many seem to view this sorry affair with solely a Western mindset that appears not to fully comprehend how those with a Wahaabist Islamic mindset view many of the "relaxed" British views of life. Why do you think that under this British "relaxed" way of life, "Honour Killings" still have occurred in recent times in Britain, instigated by those who chose to make their home in Britain, yet who still adhered to their strictly ultra-conservative understanding of their version of Islamic belief, rather than what we accept as the British legal system view on life in Britain.

 

[Killingworth]

What sources did you use to support your views that this woman (which one can now describe as such based on her current age) went to Syria "to 'help' in a variety of ways, on many sides, not just ISIS?

In 1938 I might have written "this man/woman is only one of many who went to Spain to 'help' in a variety of ways, on both sides". If the person had been 15 when she left I might have said girl, but would have called her a young lady. I don't know what her plan was when she got there, but fighting doesn't seem to have been her aim. She is now a young woman who has spent almost 20% of her life in an environment most of us cannot comprehend.

Back in the early 1950s I recall a Red Cross nurse from our church came to tell us about her work. She'd just come back from Gaza where thousands of Palestinians were still living in tented refugee camps about 5 years after being evicted from their homes when the state of Israel was violently formed. The UN were involved.

I don't.know if I'd seen colour slides before, but they were unusual then. They created an impression that has lingered a long time. The sun was shining. There were happy faces of the children she'd helped. At the time none of us could have imagined that the grandchildren of those children could still be effectively trapped as refugees in that narrow strip of land. That situation remains unresolved and festering almost 70 years later. Indirectly it has contributed to further conflicts.

Shamima is now trapped, stateless, in a UN refugee camp. History is in danger of repeating itself. We need a better plan if she and others are not to become further alienated from western society.

 

[hooverboy]

I can get the argument that she was only a child when she chose to go to Syria and may well have matured since then. However what I can't reconcile in any way is the possibility she might return here and attempt to commit some form of terrorist attack. To me that's too much of a risk to take.

There's precedent for children being expected to take responsibility for their actions - for example the Bulger killers, who were rather younger than Begum at the time. At the end of the day she must have known what she was doing at the time, and it might be the case that it's not so much a process of enlightenment as finding Syria was less exciting than expected and that things have changed in the meantime with the apparent decline of IS.

So on balance I'm more persuaded by the argument to keep her out of Britain, even if I'm not totally comfortable with the process behind that.

the age of criminal responsibility( in legal definition) in this country is 12.child or not she has commited an offence.
there would be scope for debate on whether she would be tried as an adult or a minor.

would you take the offence as being from first offence(when she left the country), or running concurrently up to the point she ceased giving aid or comfort to hostile countries/persons and wanted to come home?

the former means trial as a minor, the latter means as an adult, with relevant severity of punishment for said category.

 

[Ken H]

Maybe we should ask the Yadizis what they think. they were a people subjected to genocide, rape, slavery and sexual abuse of women and children by ISIS. The very same ISIS these women went to support. remember the images of young Yadizi girls in cages being auctioned off as sex slaves.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe we should ask the Yadizis what they think. they were a people subjected to genocide, rape, slavery and sexual abuse of women and children by ISIS. The very same ISIS these women went to support. remember the images of young Yadizi girls in cages being auctioned off as sex slaves.

Not just the Yadizi people, as in the early stages of the ISIS move into Iraq, there was their ultimatum to any Iraqi Christian unfortunate to fall into ISIS clutches of "Convert...or die".

Of course, ISIS have a totally different mindset when it comes to Muslims wishing to convert from Islamic beliefs, but the ISIS death threat still remains in such cases.

 

[Ken H]

Not just the Yadizi people, as in the early stages of the ISIS move into Iraq, there was their ultimatum to any Iraqi Christian unfortunate to fall into ISIS clutches of "Convert...or die".

Of course, ISIS have a totally different mindset when it comes to Muslims wishing to convert from Islamic beliefs, but the ISIS death threat still remains in such cases.

and of course they hate Muslims who are the wrong sort of Muslim. Sunni- v Shia have been the cause of many a conflict.

 

[furnessvale]

the age of criminal responsibility( in legal definition) in this country is 12.child or not she has commited an offence.
there would be scope for debate on whether she would be tried as an adult or a minor.

would you take the offence as being from first offence(when she left the country), or running concurrently up to the point she ceased giving aid or comfort to hostile countries/persons and wanted to come home?

the former means trial as a minor, the latter means as an adult, with relevant severity of punishment for said category.

The age of criminal responsibility in England and Wales is 10.

 

[Ken H]

and of course they hate Muslims who are the wrong sort of Muslim. Sunni- v Shia have been the cause of many a conflict.

we must remember the Syrian conflict was an Iran-Saudi war by proxy.

 

[ComUtoR]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47512659

Two more women from the UK who are being held in Syrian camps with their young children have been stripped of their citizenship, a report says.

It comes after the death in a Syrian camp of the baby son of Shamima Begum, who left London to join Islamic State and had her UK citizenship revoked.

The Sunday Times quotes legal sources who name the women as Reema Iqbal and her sister, Zara, from east London.

The Home Office said it did not comment on individual cases.

Considering all this was inevitable, why didn't the home office plan ahead :/

 

[Ken H]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47512659



Considering all this was inevitable, why didn't the home office plan ahead :/

John Reid was right. the home office wasnt fit for purpose then - still isnt.
FFS they had an illegal immigrant working as a cleaner in the immigration section.

 

[furnessvale]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47512659



Considering all this was inevitable, why didn't the home office plan ahead :/

Why was it inevitable that people who had left the UK to join its enemies would want to come back, unrepentent, to enjoy the benefits of this country while still spouting bile and hatred?

 

[Ken H]

In 1938 I might have written "this man/woman is only one of many who went to Spain to 'help' in a variety of ways, on both sides". If the person had been 15 when she left I might have said girl, but would have called her a young lady. I don't know what her plan was when she got there, but fighting doesn't seem to have been her aim. She is now a young woman who has spent almost 20% of her life in an environment most of us cannot comprehend.

Back in the early 1950s I recall a Red Cross nurse from our church came to tell us about her work. She'd just come back from Gaza where thousands of Palestinians were still living in tented refugee camps about 5 years after being evicted from their homes when the state of Israel was violently formed. The UN were involved.

I don't.know if I'd seen colour slides before, but they were unusual then. They created an impression that has lingered a long time. The sun was shining. There were happy faces of the children she'd helped. At the time none of us could have imagined that the grandchildren of those children could still be effectively trapped as refugees in that narrow strip of land. That situation remains unresolved and festering almost 70 years later. Indirectly it has contributed to further conflicts.

Shamima is now trapped, stateless, in a UN refugee camp. History is in danger of repeating itself. We need a better plan if she and others are not to become further alienated from western society.

her father has gone to bangladesh. So clearly bangladeshi. As his daughter.

 

[DarloRich]

her father has gone to bangladesh. So clearly bangladeshi. As his daughter.

not according to the law. Did you read any of the threads above?

Maybe we should ask the Yadizis what they think. they were a people subjected to genocide, rape, slavery and sexual abuse of women and children by ISIS. The very same ISIS these women went to support. remember the images of young Yadizi girls in cages being auctioned off as sex slaves.

And that impacts on our laws how?

This of course being why we have the rule of law and an independent judiciary. To avoid mob "justice"...

and that is part of my concern. These decisions to strip people of citizenship seem to be taken in an extrajudicial capacity without any oversight, "due process" or even against any known criteria and seemingly on the say so of a political figure with their own agenda at play.

I don't really care if this lady is stripped of citizenship. I do care it is done in a transparent and proper way.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't really care if this lady is stripped of citizenship. I do care it is done in a transparent and proper way.

Quite. To be quite honest I have no desire to see her return the UK (I would not have objected to her child, who also was a British citizen, returning to the UK and being placed into care) but if she is to lose her citizenship it has to be done properly. We can't just wave our hands and go "she has a theoretical citizenship elsewhere so this is fine" when the law seems pretty clear that "theoretical" isn't good enough someone has to have actual dual nationality before a state can revoke their citizenship.

 

[mmh]

These decisions to strip people of citizenship seem to be taken in an extrajudicial capacity without any oversight, "due process" or even against any known criteria and seemingly on the say so of a political figure with their own agenda at play.

What do you think Sajid Javid's own agenda is?

 

[DarloRich]

What do you think Sajid Javid's own agenda is?

Bluntly: to look good in the press so he can put himself in a position to lead the Conservative party. He needs the cauliflower heads who form the majority of the Tory membership to like him and not focus on his skin colour.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As several have mentioned, a fair number of Brits went to Syria/Turkey to support the Kurdish PKK (which, while not the stone-age butchers that are Daesh, are still a proscribed organisation in the UK). A number of these individuals were ex-armed forces personnel. Stripping those who joined Daesh of citizenship sets a dangerous precedent. The Spanish civil war (as alluded to upthread) is a good comparison to this situation. A certain Eric Arthur Blair went to Spain to fight against Franco. You may know him better as George Orwell- would you have stripped him of his UK citizenship?

 

[Esker-pades]

her father has gone to bangladesh. So clearly bangladeshi. As his daughter.

She isn't a Bangladeshi citizen. The Bangladeshi government has also said that she isn't their citizen and will not be allowed to become a Bangladeshi citizen.

Source:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47312207

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bluntly: to look good in the press so he can put himself in a position to lead the Conservative party. He needs the cauliflower heads who form the majority of the Tory membership to like him and not focus on his skin colour.

Was it not the case that Amber Rudd was also involved in the referred-to citizenship affair....?

 

[DarloRich]

Was it not the case that Amber Rudd was also involved in the referred-to citizenship affair....?

Javid is the Home Secretary. He gets the credit. He is the one pushing to be leader.