Shamima Begum

[Esker-pades]

I can't recall what we did with those who returned from Spain about 1938 when some must have witnessed, maybe taken part in, murderous acts on both sides of that civil war. OK, a different type of conflict, with limited impact back here at home - although some weren't at all happy with the actions of members of Sir Oliver Mosley's British Union of Fascists that wasn't banned until 1940. At least some of them would have been happy to murder Jews if Hitler had taken over here.

I've read reports of this young woman who was persuaded to leave Britain and willingly seems to have entered into a form of marriage with a young Dutch citizen. Most of the reports have been created by journalists asking leading questions. She's been positioned with lots of other people with similar views and experiences for about 4 years. By all accounts she's had minimal contact with the outside world. Now the the conflict is all but over she has been found by a posse of competing journalists all vying with each other for a scoop. Any lawyer would have told her to keep her mouth shut. Anything she says can be turned against her - and it has been.

None of us know the full truth, but she doesn't seem to have suggested active support for any campaign of terror either here or elsewhere. It's for the legal system to decide if she has committed any offence/s under British law.

Turning her situation into a cause celebre does nothing to rehabilitate her, or protect the British people. The press needs to back off and let her settle back into relative anonymity while her case is properly investigated and appropriately tried. Giving her either victim or martyr status doesn't help at all, either way.

There are probably a lot more murderous individuals among us now who need closer attention.

This.

To add:

Consider this:
She was a minor when she left the UK for Syria and ISIS. She did so after speaking to members of ISIS online. There is a perfectly reasonable argument to say that she was groomed and exploited by older men.

Obviously, she has since committed crimes (joining a terrorist organisation for a start). I would not want her to be allowed to return without repercussions (arrest, trial, prison if found guilty) but given that she was still a minor when she left she could well have been brainwashed and she could well be de-radicalised.

Given what I outlined in my first paragraph, and the points I have already made surrounding the rule of law, there are not grounds for revoking her citizenship.

 

[Killingworth]

Consider this:
She was a minor when she left the UK for Syria and ISIS. She did so after speaking to members of ISIS online. There is a perfectly reasonable argument to say that she was groomed and exploited by older men.

That illustrates the need for facts to be established - the grooming may have been by women, and their age may have been quite young! At present we just don't know. She was a minor, that's certain.

 

[Cowley]

That illustrates the need for facts to be established - the grooming may have been by women, and their age may have been quite young! At present we just don't know. She was a minor, that's certain.

And we'll never know, unless we get her back, put her through our (and her) legal system, and start getting to the bottom of what made her take those decisions as a 15 year old immature girl in the first place.
There are plenty of people that have come back from similar situations and gone on to become assets in the fight against this absolute horror story.
When you're a parent of young people this age you come to realise that you need to give them a second (and sometimes third or fourth) chance sometimes. Otherwise if you can't forgive then you'll offer that generation no useful direction whatsoever.
We've all made mistakes at her age, hers are massive. That doesn't mean that she's not capable of seeing them eventually though.
It's better to work to get someone on your side than make a permanent adversary of them.
This is not just a black and white situation.

 

[fowler9]

If a white girl gets passed around a bunch of Asian men using her for sex she is a victim. If a young Asian girl gets duped in to leaving everything she knows to get knocked up she is a terrorist. This seems to be what some people are saying.

 

[baz962]

If a white girl gets passed around a bunch of Asian men using her for sex she is a victim. If a young Asian girl gets duped in to leaving everything she knows to get knocked up she is a terrorist. This seems to be what some people are saying.

I would think it's not their race . I think it's the fact one got passed around and used and the other joined a terrorist organisation. That is probably the difference.

 

[furnessvale]

But I wasn’t justifying what Blair did. Not many people do.

Without defending Bush/Blair, I always remember that Saddam Hussain did nothing to disabuse the west of the idea that he had weapons of mass destruction, weapons that he had already used before.

 

[Groningen]

This morning there was a discussion about her on the BBC Worldservice. One said as there are no attacks in the UK lrts all return. Well near there was a arrest last week in the Netherlands. The man had a plan to commit an attack here. The securitythreat is 4 on a scale of 5.

 

[EM2]

Here's what's worries me about what the Government has done.
She has not been tried in court and found guilty of anything. Despite that, the Government has seen fit to remove her citizenship.
So what is to stop them doing the same to any one of us?

 

[Ken H]

That's a vague timeframe, not an answer.



Returning Ms Begum to the UK is not putting a terrorist in the street. It is putting one in jail (obvsiouly subject to a fair trial).

5 years, out on 2. Wow, that will keep us safe.

 

[Esker-pades]

5 years, out on 2. Wow, that will keep us safe.

Where have you got those figures from?

 

[Ken H]

Here's what's worries me about what the Government has done.
She has not been tried in court and found guilty of anything. Despite that, the Government has seen fit to remove her citizenship.
So what is to stop them doing the same to any one of us?

she has dual nationality by reason of her parents being bangladeshi. Same as my grand-daughter has dual nationality -born in Italy to Brit father and Italian mother. She has a 2 passports. One could argue that as begum went to join the islamic STATE on a war footing she is a citizen of that 'state' too.
She should be answerable to Syrian justice first for any Syrian laws she has broken. If I was to commit terrorist acts in Germany, I would expect to be tried in German, not the UK.

 

[EM2]

she has dual nationality by reason of her parents being bangladeshi.

Yet Bangladesh says she hasn't.

She has a 2 passports.

No she doesn't.

She should be answerable to Syrian justice first for any Syrian laws she has broken. If I was to commit terrorist acts in Germany, I would expect to be tried in German, not the UK.

Except that Syria hasn't arrested her. No-one has.

 

[Ken H]

Where have you got those figures from?

made em up. But I would not expect a massive sentence, and parole is usually granted at under 50% of sentence served. Prisons are full.
What charges do you see her answering, and what sentence do you see her getting? How on earth will they prove anything that happened in ISIS territory in a UK court?

 

[fowler9]

I would think it's not their race . I think it's the fact one got passed around and used and the other joined a terrorist organisation. That is probably the difference.

I was referring to both being groomed .

 

[61653 HTAFC]

made em up. But I would not expect a massive sentence, and parole is usually granted at under 50% of sentence served. Prisons are full.
What charges do you see her answering, and what sentence do you see her getting? How on earth will they prove anything that happened in ISIS territory in a UK court?

The laws she can be said to have broken (though not exclusively) would be: (a) some sort of passport fraud (she used an older sister's passport to leave the UK, (and it's therefore likely that she in fact has 0 passports, rather than 2); and (b) membership of a proscribed organisation (cystISIS or whatever we want to call them). If she were to come back to the UK to face those charges, then I'd expect any sentence handed down in the event of a conviction to be at the upper end of the scale. It might not be the case of "throw away the keys" that the Daily Mail or the bloke in the pub would want, but that's the price we pay for our freedom.

Even if she was acquitted, MI5 will be keeping an eye on her for the forseeable future... just as they would following (and during) any sentence being served.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was referring to both being groomed .

I agree with the point you made, but it's worth noting that you don't have to dig far into the underbelly of the internet to find people blaming the grooming victims for their own abuse too.

 

[fowler9]

The laws she can be said to have broken (though not exclusively) would be: (a) some sort of passport fraud (she used an older sister's passport to leave the UK, (and it's therefore likely that she in fact has 0 passports, rather than 2); and (b) membership of a proscribed organisation (cystISIS or whatever we want to call them). If she were to come back to the UK to face those charges, then I'd expect any sentence handed down in the event of a conviction to be at the upper end of the scale. It might not be the case of "throw away the keys" that the Daily Mail or the bloke in the pub would want, but that's the price we pay for our freedom.

Even if she was acquitted, MI5 will be keeping an eye on her for the forseeable future... just as they would following (and during) any sentence being served.

It is difficult put like that. I personally am friends with a girl who flew to Australia on a fraudulent passport, she got collared in Australia and sent back. Absolutely nothing happened to her. Regarding membership of a terrorist organisation it is going to be very difficult to prove anything Shamima Begum did apart from get pregnant.

 

[fowler9]

I agree with the point you made, but it's worth noting that you don't have to dig far into the underbelly of the internet to find people blaming the grooming victims for their own abuse too.

True.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It is difficult put like that. I personally am friends with a girl who flew to Australia on a fraudulent passport, she got collared in Australia and sent back. Absolutely nothing happened to her. Regarding membership of a terrorist organisation it is going to be very difficult to prove anything Shamima Begum did apart from get pregnant.

Chances are that any charges against your friend would have failed the "public interest" test. If she'd travelled to Turkey in order to get to Syria and join ISIS (or indeed the PKK who despite being allies against ISIS are also a proscribed group) she may not have been so lucky.

 

[fowler9]

Chances are that any charges against your friend would have failed the "public interest" test. If she'd travelled to Turkey in order to get to Syria and join ISIS (or indeed the PKK who despite being allies against ISIS are also a proscribed group) she may not have been so lucky.

Yeah, that is a very good point. I still think that we have to keep in mind that Shamima Begum was, in line with the laws of our country, a minor when she left. Our border forces let her fly out of the country on a blag passport. She was groomed online and by friends and became a jihadi bride.

 

[jon0844]

If a white girl gets passed around a bunch of Asian men using her for sex she is a victim. If a young Asian girl gets duped in to leaving everything she knows to get knocked up she is a terrorist. This seems to be what some people are saying.

It would seem obvious that she's become brainwashed, but the people suggesting she should be hung or stripped of her legal citizenship are perhaps equally brainwashed.

If we have British people who would happily kill her, I rather suspect they've got a lot in common with the thinking of the terrorists they're attacking.

We are a civilised country and have to better than others. Of course we don't get so politically correct that we stop talking about genuine issues (like some people being brought up to think that young white women are worthless infidels, who are able to be raped and abused) and the like. But we deal with it through our well-established legal framework that makes us feel safer living here than many places around the world, where such views posted on a forum would likely have us 'removed' within hours.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It would seem obvious that she's become brainwashed, but the people suggesting she should be hung or stripped of her legal citizenship are perhaps equally brainwashed.

If we have British people who would happily kill her, I rather suspect they've got a lot in common with the thinking of the terrorists they're attacking.

We are a civilised country and have to better than others. Of course we don't get so politically correct that we stop talking about genuine issues (like some people being brought up to think that young white women are worthless infidels, who are able to be raped and abused) and the like. But we deal with it through our well-established legal framework that makes us feel safer living here than many places around the world, where such views posted on a forum would likely have us 'removed' within hours.

It is somewhat ironic that those saying that she's rejected "British values" by eloping to join ISIS are all too willing to dispense with those values when it comes to her punishment.

The rule of law is there for all of us, and whilst it might be hard to put ourselves in the shoes of someone who has done such things, it's worth noting that if any of us did do the same as Begum we'd be in the same situation. The key difference being that we'd (mostly) have made that choice as adults.

 

[fowler9]

Totally agree with the last two posts. And for the record, no, I don't want our forces put at risk rescuing her. If she does get back she should be allowed home and dealt with accordingly. We are allegedly a Christian country so perhaps some of the Christians in this country should read up about the prodigal son or the lost sheep.

 

[Ken H]

....

Even if she was acquitted, MI5 will be keeping an eye on her for the forseeable future... just as they would following (and during) any sentence being served.

Yeah. Along with the 20,000 on the MI5 watch list

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yeah. Along with the 20,000 on the MI5 watch list

Of those 20,000, only a handful will be considered an imminent threat and will have action taken against them. Many will be "persons of interest" whose co-operation with authorities is vital in preventing an attack. The people doing the watching will have their own system of prioritisation and hopefully they'll get it right more than they get it wrong.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Could you explain how "The Jihadi Next Door" shows that the UK is a "haven for every terrorist organisation on the planet"?

Thinking on this, the entire EU has become one. They let anyone saying they were a refugee in without checking if they were truthful. Then there were a load of terrorist attacks and the rest is history.

How is the first point about the IRA valid?

Well I would give other examples but you'd have an answer for that too.

 

[Ken H]

Of those 20,000, only a handful will be considered an imminent threat and will have action taken against them. Many will be "persons of interest" whose co-operation with authorities is vital in preventing an attack. The people doing the watching will have their own system of prioritisation and hopefully they'll get it right more than they get it wrong.

so how come every terrorist attach the terrorists are known to the security services. Security is way over stretched.

 

[LOL The Irony]

so how come every terrorist attach the terrorists are known to the security services. Security is way over stretched.

There's either nobody in the department or they're bone idle. The London Bridge attacker who was in "The Jihadi Next Door" wasn't considered a threat by the government.

 

[ainsworth74]

Almost like there's been nearly a decade of austerity meaning swinging funding cuts to various vital services...

 

[Ken H]

Almost like there's been nearly a decade of austerity meaning swinging funding cuts to various vital services...

is that the austerity where government spending has gone up year on year?