You'd have to wait for an overhead isolation, which could possibly affect other lines, plus the necessary staff to remove and make safe the wires. On a non ECML line when I reported an OHL defect, which wasn't a dewirement but may have caused one, it took 6 hours for it to be fixed. So no electric trains both ways for 6 hours.
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Severe overhead wire damage near Peterborough 23/09
- Thread starter gavin
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You'd have to wait for an overhead isolation, which could possibly affect other lines, plus the necessary staff to remove and make safe the wires. On a non ECML line when I reported an OHL defect, which wasn't a dewirement but may have caused one, it took 6 hours for it to be fixed. So no electric trains both ways for 6 hours.
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RailUK Forums
The only service which was affected was 1D36 it ran non-stop between Peterborough and Doncaster presumably diverted which meant is couldn't call at Grantham and Newark http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y60585/2017/09/24/advanced
Customer feedback form now available for anyone who travelled on Saturday night
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/SHD7C7M
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/SHD7C7M
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I am now glad the 1800 from Boston on a Saturday night doesn't stop at Grantham. I would have been in all of this if it did! I undamn the eyes of EMT!
This really does sound like chaos. I know it is Saturday night and other travel options are limited and staff numbers are lower but still..................
This really does sound like chaos. I know it is Saturday night and other travel options are limited and staff numbers are lower but still..................
Thanks for putting a link up, completed it (hint: there is a lot of disagrees)
Luckily we were stuck at Grantham, how the ones stuck on the felt trains ahead felt not near a station I don't know. Been stuck in some delays on the ECML before but never been 5.5 hours late at my destination.
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Stampy
Member
From what I remember last night......
1E22
Edinburgh - King's Cross due to depart @ 1950 (actually departed 1959)
1D28
King's Cross - Leeds due to depart @ 1951 (actually departed 2017)
1B90
King's Cross - Lincoln Central due to depart @ 2001 (actually departed 2024)
1A48
Leeds - King's Cross due to depart @ 2014 (actually departed 2022)
2 departures North also managed to cause 2 trains to slow down to a crawl on the Down Fast past a single yellow aspect.
And yet all Passengers at PBO were told was "operational difficulties" :roll:
It's in situations like this you should get more than £28.40 is that enough for delays of 5+ hours? not a chance
70014IronDuke
Established Member
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I suppose if you could count and cost the mass passenger frustration and anger ("I will NEVER catch those trains again!") of these repeated overhead problems, it might be worth it, long term.
But if they are cancelling electrification of busy lines like the Midland north of Kettering and - especially - the Western west of Cardiff, then you are not going to get a £££££££ electrification scheme passed for an otherwise lightly used* parallel line from Peterborough to Doncaster. It is, what, 90 odd miles? Lovely to have if you are an operator - but would cost an orrible amount of dosho.
* I mean in passenger terms. I know they upgraded it for more goods trafffic - I have no idea if the expected traffic actually runs.
I travelled from Newcastle to Doncaster on Saturday night on the 19.50 Newcastle-King's Cross (1E23 16.41 off Edinburgh, terminated at Peterborough as noted above), and on arrival at Doncaster I saw 91115 (with its pantograph down) and a full Mark 4 set immobilised in Platform 4, with window labels showing Newcastle. I'm guessing that this was the set that had formed 1N33 20.00 King's Cross-Leeds. For the record the full set was 91115 12224 12477 12439 12440 12326 10321 11241 11320 11420 82200. Just before catching the 21.42 to Sheffield, I saw 67028 coupling to 91115, presumably to take the set empty to Neville Hill.
Except, of course, those which are self powered - like the 80x's under discussion.
It's worth nothing that for a flight delayed for more than 2 hours you are entitled to food and drink, and accommodation if delayed over night and for delays of more than 3 hours at least 250 compensation (regardless of ticket cost). Although in the interests of balance, unlike the railway you'll be entitled to (and generally get) nothing in the event of a delay less than this.
I had a look at the Virgin Trains East coast passengers charter.
It says this.
That wasn't offered to me or anyone else impacted that I was aware of on Saturday (and there is no dispute that a bus or taxi would do Grantham to London in less than 6.5 hours).
Well I arrived (along with many others) at Kings Cross at 03:30 rather than 21:54 as scheduled (and it was after 5am before I got to my final destination). I'd not consider that to be "a reasonable time", but again hotels or transport back to the origin was not offered.
At Grantham when our train arrived the station staff walked past passengers waiting on the platform and refused to speak to them (despite people asking to), went in the office and locked the door, just making announcements over the tannoy. Whilst I can understand why they might feel they need to do that (tempers were getting somewhat frayed) it is not very proffessional to hide away.
Again this did not happen, at least in standard. The buffet was closed for the whole journey (staff shortage) and there was no trolley (at least, not in standard). When we finally got to Grantham (after midnight) all the station facilities were closed. Once the replacement train arrived there was no announcement about any buffet and with people standing all down the aisle there would be no chance to get to it anyway.
I understand problems can happen but it should not take over 3 hours to get people off the train (particularly, as the case with this train) when the train still has power and is working correctly - I can appreciate that being on the train that has actually failed would be harder. And when people do get off there really should be the option of getting something to eat or drink.
So I'll certainly be complaining to Virgin Trains, but I suspect I'll get a voucher for the cost of my ticket but nothing more.
I never got offered anything either. We were stood at Grantham Stain nearly 4 hours and there was very little staff presence. I was relaying what was going on to others through what was put on here and RTT as the staff were giving out very little info. After arriving at King's X 5 hours late at 03:30 there was also little presence of any staff but understandable at that time of night. The taxi queue was massive and only 1 tube entrance was open. DI'd you stay on the HST at P'boro or move to the 225?
I stayed on the HST though I was lucky as the train I was on was the first of the 3 that went on the resuce train so I got a seat before the other 2 train loads of people arrived. In any case I'd probably have stayed on the HST to reduce any further delay.
The situation at Kings Cross was poor. I tried to go out the main door opposite the end of the platforms but found it locked. So I followed the crowds heading to what I later found was the only unlocked exit. I joined the scrum to get through the only open door but then spotted an entrance to the tube to the right. I don't know if it was open because as soon as I tried to go that way I got barked at that I had to leave the station via that door only and then to outside into the square to get to the tube.
The taxi queue must have been awful, standing outside mixed in with the 'late night revellers'. Was anyone coordinating the taxis or was it just a case of queuing up as normal?
I do often wonder if once the maximum level of Delay Repay is reached, there is little incentive to throw more resources at the situation, which is why it should keep going up.
I do often wonder if once the maximum level of Delay Repay is reached, there is little incentive to throw more resources at the situation, which is why it should keep going up.
The whole route is cleared to W12, so I would have thought that there are no bridges to lift. But a lot of LCs.
Tom B
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Are arrangements in place with taxi circuits in such scenarios to put out a call to get additional taxis to a location? I'd have thought that the prospect of a meaty fare would tempt many cabbies.
Surely there must be questions asked about the handling of such incidents - there seem to have been several over the same section recently and to leave people abandoned and misled can't be right. Though it's a weekend evening, surely arrangements exist to do emergency call outs for suitable managers and additional staff?
Surely there must be questions asked about the handling of such incidents - there seem to have been several over the same section recently and to leave people abandoned and misled can't be right. Though it's a weekend evening, surely arrangements exist to do emergency call outs for suitable managers and additional staff?
Do DBC have another spare 90 that could cover for the damaged 91? I assume the coaching stock came out unscathed.
Or what's 89001 up to these days?
I was on the 17:30 King's Cross to Newcastle, which lost all power just short of Doncaster (I think completely independently of the main disruption on Saturday evening), and was towed into platform 4 at Doncaster by approx 20:10. It was still there at 20:42 when I caught a train to Sheffield. So this might have been what you saw, but obviously I've no idea if they managed to move it and then get a different broken train into the same platform by the time you arrived.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
What extra resource though? Is the problem not that on a Saturday night "on call" people are thin on the ground. Off shift/not on call I suggest most staff will have had a drink or be more interested in having some down time.
If I were in that situation I certainly wouldn't think: I am off duty and not on call but I better not have a pint because something, somewhere might go wrong...............
(Same goes for bus/cab companies - you are working on people being fit for work when they didn't expect to be out of hours.)
I am not saying this went well as clearly it didn't but was this not about the worst time for such a problem to happen?
bramling
Veteran Member
At the end of the day it costs money, and no one really wants to pay for a resource which is idle most of the time.
The railway has a set number of station staff and incident response staff, and that's it. It really depends how many staff is deemed acceptable to be sitting around waiting for an incident to happen, there's no right or wrong answer. Even if you have copious response staff, there's still an element of luck in having people in the right place at the right time.
Add in the fact that people simply don't want to work weekends, so pretty much every roster is constructed on the basis of minimising weekend working as far as possible. Look at the perennial issue of weekend cancellations due to train crew non-availability as an example of this.
Chris M
Member
If the TOC/Network Rail/whoever isn't going to pay for extra staff to be available for incidents like this (regardless of whether you agree with this or not) then it needs to have plans in place to deal with incidents like this with the number of staff they do have.
With the possible exception of very remote branch lines, there really should be no reason for passengers to be on a failed train more than two hours tops, and no more than 1 hour if the failure is within reasonable walking distance of a station.
With the possible exception of very remote branch lines, there really should be no reason for passengers to be on a failed train more than two hours tops, and no more than 1 hour if the failure is within reasonable walking distance of a station.
eastdyke
Established Member
I am not sure about your timescales.
But there is no question in my mind that those arriving in London on the night should have been treated much much better than a load of delinquent cattle.
And that is not to say that cattle should be treated badly either!
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
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On a live railway, evacuation off a safe environment onboard is not considered a first resort for very good reasons. There are often many options that can be explored before evacuation is considered the only option, and all these options take time to be explored and discounted.
Your given time-frame is simply unrealistic in most such cases.
The problem with a given threshold is that there will always be exceptions where things take a little longer than usual for an extra option to be explored, and they can very quickly add up.
I do however agree that 5 hours sounds a little long with no supplies onboard. If additional supply cannot be brought to the train then I think at around 2-3 hours and there being no realistic hope of things improving quickly, evacuation should be seriously considered a contender for ways forward, provided that the nearest safe environment is not too far away.
The handling of the incident at King's Cross does also leave a lot to be desired going by the account of things, however again remember that it is Saturday night, so spare staff may be difficult to find, and taxis/buses will be in short supply for various reasons.
Chris M
Member
My main point was that the railway needs to either find those spare staff or have plans in place that don't rely on them being available. Equally, they need to plan for situations when buses and taxis are in short supply (or find ways to make them available, but this is almost certainly not realistic).
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theageofthetra
Established Member
Were any on call managers there to assist the limited staff available?
The penalty to the train companies for mis-managing stranded trains are so small it's hardly worth investing in improving matters. First Capital connect paid only £102,718 when they mis-managed a stranded train back in 2013. (That was about 3 hours I believe, although the overall outcomes were worse)
That's only about £145 per passenger for the approx 700 passengers on board.
Personally I think 5 hours is too slow, but since this incident appears to have generated no negative publicity (not reported anywhere!) and the delay repay is no more than than it would be with any delay of more than an hour, plus the unlikeliness of any government penalty, I don't expect to see any improvements at all.
Unless somebody actually dies on a stranded train of course, in which case everyone will suddenly pile in and say how unacceptable it all is and lots of money will suddenly become available and/or penalties will suddenly get severe.
(Perhaps too cynical?)
Edit: I do appreciate that workers on the ground are trying very hard, but if there aren't enough resources, what better can they do?
That's only about £145 per passenger for the approx 700 passengers on board.
Personally I think 5 hours is too slow, but since this incident appears to have generated no negative publicity (not reported anywhere!) and the delay repay is no more than than it would be with any delay of more than an hour, plus the unlikeliness of any government penalty, I don't expect to see any improvements at all.
Unless somebody actually dies on a stranded train of course, in which case everyone will suddenly pile in and say how unacceptable it all is and lots of money will suddenly become available and/or penalties will suddenly get severe.
(Perhaps too cynical?)
Edit: I do appreciate that workers on the ground are trying very hard, but if there aren't enough resources, what better can they do?
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SpacePhoenix
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Are they lucky that it wasn't a hot day when it happened? Had it been a hot day, would there have been a very high risk of people pulling the egress handles and bailing from the train, heading both ways up the tracks?
I'm not sure how anyone can answer that sort of hypothetical question?
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