Severe delays east coast

[EM2]

Steam trains on the ECML? ****ing mental! We don't tolerate Stanley Steamers chuffing around the M25 at 10mph - they are in a museum or at Goodwood. What a sick joke for everyone who's travel plans have been wrecked.

Except a Stanley Steamer would quite easily do 80mph
It'd be their brakes that would be the problem...

EDIT - and what about the London to Brighton run?

 

[AlexS]

By gum, I assume the next time a 225 set or Networker drags down the wires on the ECML and buggers the job up the entire lot will be withdrawn in an instant

Unfortunately, lineside fires happen (and it's not just kettles that cause them). In a by gone age you could send out the nearest bods with a lump of wood to beat them out but as that's no longer acceptable you have to wait for them to be put out.

It's a sad occurance but really no different to the OHLE being dragged down across all the roads as periodically happens on the ECML anyway, with much the same effect!

Or when NR's signalling decides to switch off, repeat ad infinitum!

Accidents happen. If this one was down to negligence you can be sure someone will be busted for it, but it seems unfair to go nuts over it - it's a traction fault, much the same as on Mr 365 when it stops the job for a day.

 

[amcluesent]

it seems unfair to go nuts over it

Not when you've been stood on the concourse of KGX for 2 hrs then stood for a few more hours on the train with kiddies screaming non-stop and are gasping for a drink after you've paid top money for FC

 

[yorkie]

Not when you've been stood on the concourse of KGX for 2 hrs then stood for a few more hours on the train with kiddies screaming non-stop and are gasping for a drink after you've paid top money for FC

Where are you travelling to and what time did you arrive at KGX? It may have been quicker to go from St Pancras (depending on destination of course, if it was Peterborough, xx28 out of Liverpool St gets you to Peterborough 2 hours 22 minutes later, with a change at Cambridge)

 

[AlexS]

Ok, poorly messaged - it seems unfair to go nuts because it's a steam locomotive that's caused the problem.

The closest I've ever come to being involved in a riot was within the last 5 years when an EWS freight failed at Daw Mill, blocked the Brum to Leicester line (where inconveniently all Brum Derby trains were also being diverted via) for 7 hours, and left me and a few thousand others stood at Leicester station.

I survived and life went on.

Better get rid of all them bloody freight trains then!

 

[4SRKT]

I think there is a massive difference between a LE steam loco dropping ash all over the place and setting fire to loads of lineside and a revenue earning freight on a minor line breaking down. Steam should not be under its own power on the ECML. That seems fairly basic stuff.

 

[Barrett M95]

Accidents happen. If this one was down to negligence you can be sure someone will be busted for it, but it seems unfair to go nuts over it - it's a traction fault, much the same as on Mr 365 when it stops the job for a day.

It's more often a 91...

The railway has to take a balanced view with regard to running Steam locomotives. On one hand, they ran for over a hundred years and the risks are well known. How they are handled is perhaps another matter. How much money do they bring to the railway? Enough to cover incidents like this? What access charges to they pay?

I have often wondered of the effect of chimney heat on overhead lines while steam locos are sat stationary for over 15 minutes in places. It doesn't seem to cause any harm, and has presumably been looked at by someone, but it just doesn't look clever to me.

 

[Smoggy]

I was unfortunate enough to be on the 14:35 Kings Cross to Leeds. We arrived at Peterborough around 15:30 and stood on the Down Fast with the 14:30 KGX-Newcastle stood in platform 4.

The Newcastle service (now 1G21 17:00 Peterborough-Newcastle) promptly failed on the Down Fast shortly after departure with a damaged WSP cable. This resulted in our train being trapped, so eventually at 17:30 after driver changed ends we proceeded back south and set back behind signal 423. This then allowed us to proceed via platform 5 and onto the Down Slow/Stamford after a quick stop in the platform.
Finally arrived into Doncaster at 18:47 155mins late.

Also 1S22 failed just after departure on the Down Stamford, and eventually returned to the station. 1G21 also managed to limp back into Peterborough and was rescued by the Kings Cross thunderbird. 1G21 was then formed using the stock off 5A36 ex Doncaster.

 

[Bittern]

These incidents are so incredibly rare that when one actually does happen, half of you go insane just because it's a steam loco. Why should they be condemned to a museum? They bring in revenue for Network Rail and this revenue goes towards (a small part albeit) making the railways better.

Accidents happen. It's a fact of life. And judging from what's been posted, Ollie isn't the only "culprit" of todays mess, just the start of it and thus gets all the blame.

To say steam should be banned is insane. This is real life, and guess what? Unfortunate things happen here.

If causing mass disruption like this was a regular thing, Network Rail would've banned them already. They haven't because accidents like what happened with Ollie are rare.

Let's also remember, this was caused by human error, not by the fact that it was a steam loco. Part of Ollie was left open when it should've been closed. Somebody forgot to close it and thus if you want to blame anyone, that's your person. To suddenly label all steam locos as "things which should be in a museum" is ludicrous and a slap in the face to everyone involved in the mass preservation movement. These people try to do something for the enthusiasts and you spit in their faces. Well done.

 

[allticketspls]

I notice a fair amount of slagging off of steam locomotives here.

Funny how I can't seem to find the thread advocating the banning of Class 90 electrics after the Freightliner one that fried at Milton Keynes causing the WCML to be shut.

The problem on the ECML today was not the fault of the locomotive, it was human error caused by someone not closing a hatch on the engine and furthermore no-one checked the hatches before the train left.

 

[Yorkswatcher]

Where are you travelling to and what time did you arrive at KGX? It may have been quicker to go from St Pancras (depending on destination of course, if it was Peterborough, xx28 out of Liverpool St gets you to Peterborough 2 hours 22 minutes later, with a change at Cambridge)

Well the only thing said at kings cross was a recording that told Stevenage and peterboro passengers to use FCC.

No messages about going via different routes. Again a shambles at kings cross. I got on the 19:03 should have been on 18:03 the girl in front of me should have been on 16:xx. The entire train was rammed all the way. Standing room only until Doncaster.

Stuck outside peterboro for 20 mins due to 3 broken down trains. Then again at Grantham due to a police chase across the lines.

Arrived in to Wakefield 2 hours late.

Oh and someone had the great idea to try and run the trolley service this got stuck in the middle of a carriage meaning no one could get to the buffet.

 

[Bittern]

I notice a fair amount of slagging off of steam locomotives here.

Funny how I can't seem to find the thread advocating the banning of Class 90 electrics after the Freightliner one that fried at Milton Keynes causing the WCML to be shut.

The problem on the ECML today was not the fault of the locomotive, it was human error caused by someone not closing a hatch on the engine and furthermore no-one checked the hatches before the train left.

It's good to know that someone else is making some sense.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

These incidents are so incredibly rare that when one actually does happen, half of you go insane just because it's a steam loco. Why should they be condemned to a museum? They bring in revenue for Network Rail and this revenue goes towards (a small part albeit) making the railways better.

Accidents happen. It's a fact of life. And judging from what's been posted, Ollie isn't the only "culprit" of todays mess, just the start of it and thus gets all the blame.

To say steam should be banned is insane. This is real life, and guess what? Unfortunate things happen here.

If causing mass disruption like this was a regular thing, Network Rail would've banned them already. They haven't because accidents like what happened with Ollie are rare.

Let's also remember, this was caused by human error, not by the fact that it was a steam loco. Part of Ollie was left open when it should've been closed. Somebody forgot to close it and thus if you want to blame anyone, that's your person. To suddenly label all steam locos as "things which should be in a museum" is ludicrous and a slap in the face to everyone involved in the mass preservation movement. These people try to do something for the enthusiasts and you spit in their faces. Well done.

I Do agree with your comments here Bittern. I am of course sorry for the many people who got delayed last night and if I had been on that line yesterday, I too would have been cross, but as you say when you think of the many main line steam movements these days, things like this are rare, it's a bit of a knee jerk reaction. Perhaps however more light engine movements could be done overnight and or on less busy lines where possible. Some of the above comments also say these steam trips are only for "old men", I don't consider myself old and there are often many people in thier 20s and 30s and even a few kids who go on these main line steam trips.

 

[graham43404]

Just passed the offending pair at Newark this morning on our way down to London. It looks like they are stoked up and ready to go sometime soon.

 

[Aictos]

I notice a fair amount of slagging off of steam locomotives here.

Funny how I can't seem to find the thread advocating the banning of Class 90 electrics after the Freightliner one that fried at Milton Keynes causing the WCML to be shut.

The problem on the ECML today was not the fault of the locomotive, it was human error caused by someone not closing a hatch on the engine and furthermore no-one checked the hatches before the train left.

Quite agree, too much of a knee jerk reaction to the incident.

 

[amcluesent]

Just my observation, but each time there is disruption due to line damage, signals, a fatality or yesterdays fires the EC 'response' is increasingly chaotic and uncoordinated. Yesterday it was pretty much everyone for themselves as EC command and control fell to pieces.

Don't they have any business continuity plans. I get the feeling EC have 'let go' anyone over 45 who knew the ropes for fresh-faced Eastern Europeans on min-wage who can't cope\don't have delegated authority. The 'solution' is to close down for the day and try and get something cobbled together for the next morning. EC is just a 'fair weather' operation

 

[Aictos]

Just my observation, but each time there is disruption due to line damage, signals, a fatality or yesterdays fires the EC 'response' is increasingly chaotic and uncoordinated. Yesterday it was pretty much everyone for themselves as EC command and control fell to pieces.

Don't they have any business continuity plans. I get the feeling EC have 'let go' anyone over 45 who knew the ropes for fresh-faced Eastern Europeans on min-wage who can't cope\don't have delegated authority. The 'solution' is to close down for the day and try and get something cobbled together for the next morning. EC is just a 'fair weather' operation

And you could do better? Yes, it could have been better but East Coast were doing their best to keep a service going so unless you have personal experience of managing major disruption, keep these slurs to yourself.

It's not fair to blame everything on East Coast or on the two Steam Locos - I was in the midst of it yesterday too and the majority of passengers were kept moving with alternative travel advice being given.

 

[HST Power]

In the defense of East Coast, I think they are probably one of the best, if not the best TOC I have ever travelled with. Their trains are clean, the service standard is excellent and you get a good deal for what you are paying for. They do get delays, but a lot of the time, as was the case last night, it was out of their hands. The ECML became a warzone and all they could do was get their hands of deck and advise passengers on suitable alternatives. Tickets on other operators trains were being accepted via any reasonable route. Whether it's a steam loco, or a signalling issue, or a drunk running down the track shouting 'Up The Gunners' (I'm not stereotyping football fans there, just giving an example), all they can do is advise on alternatives and wait for the carnage to clear until normal service resumes. It was a disaster if you got stuck, but with mayhem exploding from every corner of the railway, options were limited.

 

[4SRKT]

I have to say that I find EC a very good TOC on the whole. Yes, there are problems from time to time, but yesterday was on a most unusually large scale and it's understandable that information was hard to come by. You want to try dealing with Northern staff at Leeds station in situations of much smaller disruption than this if you want to see things falling apart. I'd say the lights are on but nobody's home, but I'm not even sure the lights are actually on, or if they are they've all been fitted with 25W bulbs. I always go and find Northern traincrew to ask instead when there's a problem at Leeds as they are more helpful and certainly politer in a crisis than the station staff. Do they receive training do you think to perfect the 'Northern shrug' (TM) that they so expertly give as the answer to any question other than "what platform does the xx: xx to y go from?"? Even that becomes problematic if there's been a platform alteration (very frequent at Leeds).

 

[DarloRich]

I notice a fair amount of slagging off of steam locomotives here.

Funny how I can't seem to find the thread advocating the banning of Class 90 electrics after the Freightliner one that fried at Milton Keynes causing the WCML to be shut.

The problem on the ECML today was not the fault of the locomotive, it was human error caused by someone not closing a hatch on the engine and furthermore no-one checked the hatches before the train left.

I quite agree. A sensible point

What if the fires had been started by sparks from the rail grinder or someone doing maintenance work. Shall we ban those as well? :roll::roll::roll:

 

[4SRKT]

There is a massive difference. Class 90s and rail grinders are essential to running the railway. LE kettles on trunk routes are not.

 

[DarloRich]

technically it was 2 kettles!

 

[4SRKT]

technically it was 2 kettles!

One with a leaky grate or something it would seem!

I have nothing against main line steam, but running on trunk routes is just daft, especially ECS or LE.

 

[Royston Vasey]

People seem to be missing the point here. As Bittern has said, this was caused by human error, and this is the point. Rather than it being the fault of the loco (plenty of steam locos run that route every year and don't cause this) but the frankly negligent actions of what is probably an amateur or retired railwayman, and this is the concern. This is the difference between the burnt 90 and the rail grinder example. Safety and procedures for preserved operations should be just as important as when a professional is preparing his or her grinder or freight consist or passenger train.

If anything, given the lesser intrinsic safety of a steam loco c.f. a more modern piece of equipment, it should be even more important.

Seems like a fairly basic oversight was made, to me. Procedures properly followed would have prevented this. Amateur hour on a Friday afternoon simply should not happen.

 

[philjo]

I'm currently on an EC service from Leeds. Just departed Newark. 30777 Sir Lamiel and Oliver Cromwell are coupled together in steam in the siding alongside the platforms. 47580 is coupled to the front of Oliver Cromwell.

 

[blacknight]

I notice a fair amount of slagging off of steam locomotives here.

What about Network Rails responsibility in this saga judging by the amount of "Railway Gardens" that have shot up line side not much time is spent in the cutting back of vegitation these days. No Fuel= No Fire= No Delay

 

[allticketspls]

One with a leaky grate or something it would seem!

I have nothing against main line steam, but running on trunk routes is just daft, especially ECS or LE.

What would you suggest to get them to their origin point? Of course they could be routed via the Hertford Loop if further south but is there a suitable diversion route from York to Stevenage to allow the ECML to be avoided?

If it is daft to run Steam locomotives on trunk routes, how come the specials that run nearly always sell out well in advance of the tour?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about Network Rails responsibility in this saga judging by the amount of "Railway Gardens" that have shot up line side not much time is spent in the cutting back of vegitation these days. No Fuel= No Fire= No Delay

I would normally agree with this but the actual location of the fire (according to a video on youtube) was an embankment which would look pretty hideous without grass cover in my opinion.

 

[4SRKT]

What would you suggest to get them to their origin point? Of course they could be routed via the Hertford Loop if further south but is there a suitable diversion route from York to Stevenage to allow the ECML to be avoided?

Diesel or electric hauled DIT. Along the ECML. Obviously :roll:

What is the point in wearing out a valuable loco that is essentially an antique and burning huge amounts of expensive steam coal on a positioning move? I am in favour of kettles running on the main line if that's what people want, but the risks need to be managed properly, as they were clearly not yesterday. You wouldn't demand to run your preserved Spitfire into LHR would you?

If it is daft to run Steam locomotives on trunk routes, how come the specials that run nearly always sell out well in advance of the tour?

I can't see how this is in any way relevant. It is daft from an operating POV, not a commercial one.

 

[Bungle73]

This is just someone making a mistake. All this talk of banning steam locos from the mainline is a load of nonsense. Maybe if it was happening all the time, but it's not. Can you say "kneejerk"?

 

[dstrat]

Question: why can't the trains run by the flames? A grass fire isn't going to weaken steel poles on the OHLE - so whats the big deal?