Setting the DRA

[Krokodil]

What about mixed-traffic locos like 67s/68s/92s? Are they fitted?

 

[D3WY]

I’m not aware of any freight that has DRA, happy to be corrected. All freight tractions I've signed don’t have DRA. As a freight driver I didn’t even know was it was so the point about needing power etc is a valid point as I’d be powering towards a red some times. Which isn’t something for the faint hearted !

Yeah I'm pretty sure freight doesn't have it only passenger trains. It's main purpose is the prevent SPADS from a station due to forgetting the previous signal was at yellow, if you forget you can't take power so if there is a starter signal it makes you check the aspect as during dispatch a driver may forget to re heck the starting signal and just set off.

 

[MA8141]

What about mixed-traffic locos like 67s/68s/92s? Are they fitted?

67s have them, but I’ve never dragged freight with a 67.

 

[Saj8]

If you come in on a green there is a red 800 yards away but the AWS is not within the platforms (ie its not a starting signal) you don't set DRA.

If you've come in on a green and there's a red 800 yards away, then that's a signalling irregularity!

My answer to the OP is that you would be required to set the DRA irrespective of whether the signal is a starting signal or not.

If it is a starting signal, you would be setting the DRA because you are stopped at a signal at Danger.

If its not a starting signal then you would be setting it because you have passed a single yellow and then stopped at a platform where no starting signal is provided.

 

[cool110]

If you've come in on a green and there's a red 800 yards away, then that's a signalling irregularity!

Not on parts of Merseyrail.

 

[Saj8]

Not on parts of Merseyrail.

True. But I was assuming the OP was talking about somewhere on the national rail network.

 

[Tomnick]

If you've come in on a green and there's a red 800 yards away, then that's a signalling irregularity!

My answer to the OP is that you would be required to set the DRA irrespective of whether the signal is a starting signal or not.

If it is a starting signal, you would be setting the DRA because you are stopped at a signal at Danger.

If its not a starting signal then you would be setting it because you have passed a single yellow and then stopped at a platform where no starting signal is provided.

An interesting one on one of my routes is a station where you come in on a yellow 99% of the time, with the next signal (that's not a platform starting signal) visible from the normal stopping point, and by then already cleared perhaps 98% of the time. Every driver that I know will consciously acknowledge that the signal has cleared and then not set the DRA. To do otherwise, in my view, just risks becoming a routine action and undermines its real value, for the 1% when the signal remains at danger.

 

[Saj8]

An interesting one on one of my routes is a station where you come in on a yellow 99% of the time, with the next signal (that's not a platform starting signal) visible from the normal stopping point, and by then already cleared perhaps 98% of the time. Every driver that I know will consciously acknowledge that the signal has cleared and then not set the DRA. To do otherwise, in my view, just risks becoming a routine action and undermines its real value, for the 1% when the signal remains at danger.

Yes, I've heard arguments from competence managers that in this situation if the signal has cleared, you should still set the DRA as the letter of the rule says that you must set the DRA after passing a single yellow and then stopping at a platform where no starting signal is provided. The rule doesn't go on to say "...unless the next signal is visible from the platform and has cleared in the meantime."

To me it comes down to common sense. What is the point of setting the DRA when the next signal has visibly cleared? What would the DRA then be reminding you of? As you say, all it would do is undermine the value of using the DRA.

 

[Tomnick]

Yes, I've heard arguments from competence managers that in this situation if the signal has cleared, you should still set the DRA as the letter of the rule says that you must set the DRA after passing a single yellow and then stopping at a platform where no starting signal is provided. The rule doesn't go on to say "...unless the next signal is visible from the platform and has cleared in the meantime."

To me it comes down to common sense. What is the point of setting the DRA when the next signal has visibly cleared? What would the DRA then be reminding you of? As you say, all it would do is undermine the value of using the DRA.

We have another place where you have the opposite problem. The previous signal is a distant that's invariably 'on'. The platform starting signal is the semaphore home signal, and is invariably 'off' by the time you get to it. By the book, you shouldn't set the DRA. There are a further three semaphore stop signals, all out of sight. Surely you *do* want the DRA in there!

 

[rmHawk765]

If I remember correctly some trains will put on full service braking if you set the DRA while moving, notably the 350 is an example I can remember. I can see why you might do it after passing a single yellow though, especially if the starting (or next) signal has poor visibility, but I don't think its behaviour when set on the move is dictated and I suppose different manufacturers have different ideas about it.

I am not entirely sure if the thing about the 350 is accurate, feel free to correct me.

 

[Saj8]

We have another place where you have the opposite problem. The previous signal is a distant that's invariably 'on'. The platform starting signal is the semaphore home signal, and is invariably 'off' by the time you get to it. By the book, you shouldn't set the DRA. There are a further three semaphore stop signals, all out of sight. Surely you *do* want the DRA in there!

Yes, you do, and the latest iteration of the professional driving policy at my company says that in AB sections if you pass a distant signal at caution and then stop at a station with or without a starting signal, you must set the DRA even if the starting signal (if present) is clear, unless that signal is the section signal.

This is the only situation where I set the DRA on the move, and I do it as soon as I've passed the distant.

 

[dk1]

I must admit I set it at the previous yellow signal at some locations and when at a stand/in the platform at others. Depends on my mood and whether it’s a location I regularly get checked.

 

[43066]

To me it comes down to common sense. What is the point of setting the DRA when the next signal has visibly cleared? What would the DRA then be reminding you of? As you say, all it would do is undermine the value of using the DRA.

There may be a time when the next signal is obscured by fog/smoke etc. If it’s picked up on a download that you didn’t set the DRA when required you’ll be hauled in for a chat, and woe betide you if something happens etc.

We have another place where you have the opposite problem. The previous signal is a distant that's invariably 'on'. The platform starting signal is the semaphore home signal, and is invariably 'off' by the time you get to it. By the book, you shouldn't set the DRA. There are a further three semaphore stop signals, all out of sight. Surely you *do* want the DRA in there!

Melton? Actually not sure it can be as that’s only two stop signals(?). It’s a while since I’ve been that way…

 

[Saj8]

If I remember correctly some trains will put on full service braking if you set the DRA while moving, notably the 350 is an example I can remember. I can see why you might do it after passing a single yellow though, especially if the starting (or next) signal has poor visibility, but I don't think its behaviour when set on the move is dictated and I suppose different manufacturers have different ideas about it.

I am not entirely sure if the thing about the 350 is accurate, feel free to correct me.

I don't know about the 350s, I don't drive them, but I did drive HSTs, and this is the case with them. You can't set the DRA on the move because it gives a full service brake application.

 

[Tomnick]

Yes, you do, and the latest iteration of the professional driving policy at my company says that in AB sections if you pass a distant signal at caution and then stop at a station with or without a starting signal, you must set the DRA even if the starting signal (if present) is clear, unless that signal is the section signal.

This is the only situation where I set the DRA on the move, and I do it as soon as I've passed the distant.

Sensible, both from you and your company! But, on setting it on the move...

I must admit I set it at the previous yellow signal at some locations and when at a stand/in the platform at others. Depends on my mood and whether it’s a location I regularly get checked.

...I generally set it just before I reach the platform end in most of these situations. Personally I've found that it works better for me than waiting until I'm in the platform and coming to a stand, where there are more potential distractions.

 

[Saj8]

Personally I've found that it works better for me

Which is absolutely the right answer, whichever way you do it. I've found the split of drivers setting it on the move vs at a stand is about 50/50. They all have their different reasons for doing it the way they do, and if it works, then fine. For me, I always do it at a stand as part of my routine. bring the train to a stand, set full service brake, direction switch to neutral, Check the signal, set DRA if required, confirm train length and stop point, confirm platform side, release doors, cross off the station, and that has, so far, worked for me.

 

[eman_resu]

Out of interest - Is the application of the DRA and / or the guard / driver buzzer recorded in the OTDR?

 

[dk1]

Out of interest - Is the application of the DRA and / or the guard / driver buzzer recorded in the OTDR?

Yes they all are.

 

[CC 72100]

We have another place where you have the opposite problem. The previous signal is a distant that's invariably 'on'. The platform starting signal is the semaphore home signal, and is invariably 'off' by the time you get to it. By the book, you shouldn't set the DRA. There are a further three semaphore stop signals, all out of sight. Surely you *do* want the DRA in there!

Absolutely; and our DRA policy and my TOC states that the DRA should be set in these circumstances. Just because the signal you're currently looking at is off, it doesn't mean the next one(s) is/are too.

The one slight hole in our policy is it says nothing about when a Token or other authority is required for a single line. I personally always set the DRA until I've recieved the Token (even if the signal - the last one associated with the distant) is off, because as far as I'm concerned, I don't yet have full/proper authority to pass that signal and enter the single line. But it wouldn't be 'wrong' to not do so - the policy is silent on the subject.

 

[driver9000]

If I remember correctly some trains will put on full service braking if you set the DRA while moving, notably the 350 is an example I can remember. I can see why you might do it after passing a single yellow though, especially if the starting (or next) signal has poor visibility, but I don't think its behaviour when set on the move is dictated and I suppose different manufacturers have different ideas about it.

I am not entirely sure if the thing about the 350 is accurate, feel free to correct me.

I used to to sign 350s. Setting the DRA on the move in a 350 knocked out the dynamic braking reverting it to disc brake. It didn't give a full service brake but it was noticeable release of the dynamic brake followed by the disc applying to whatever brake position you had applied.

 

[GN Boy]

I used to to sign 350s. Setting the DRA on the move in a 350 knocked out the dynamic braking reverting it to disc brake. It didn't give a full service brake but it was noticeable release of the dynamic brake followed by the disc applying to whatever brake position you had applied.

This sounds similar to the 700/717 units (it must be a Siemens thing?), which is why GN/TL drivers only set the DRA once at a stand too.

 

[edwin_m]

The dynamic brake is part of the traction system whereas the friction brake is separate. So if the DRA simply disables the traction system it will also disable the dynamic brake. This may arise for reasons such as:

• The manufacturer's standard traction package adopted for the a new fleet doesn't have a facility to disable the traction without disabling the brake, and it wasn't worthwhile to try to add this facility.
• The same, but retrofitting the DRA to an existing unit which didn't have that facility either.
• The DRA is assessed to be a higher safety integrity level function than the traction, so it can't rely on the traction package to deliver the function and has to disable the traction via some separate higher-integrity means.

 

[Kneedown]

I don't know about the 350s, I don't drive them, but I did drive HSTs, and this is the case with them. You can't set the DRA on the move because it gives a full service brake application.

That's a strange one.
I drove HSTs with EMT/EMR for years, and I've never had the brakes go on, on the occasions I've deemed it appropriate to apply the DRA on the move.
Brake release is also possible with the DRA applied, hence the extra vigilance necessary to ensure it is reset before attempting to take power to prevent rollback.

 

[D3WY]

If you've come in on a green and there's a red 800 yards away, then that's a signalling irregularity!

My answer to the OP is that you would be required to set the DRA irrespective of whether the signal is a starting signal or not.

If it is a starting signal, you would be setting the DRA because you are stopped at a signal at Danger.

If its not a starting signal then you would be setting it because you have passed a single yellow and then stopped at a platform where no starting signal is provided.

Yes fair point. My point on that sentance was to state at what point a signal that's off the end of the platform is a starting signal or not, if you came in on a green and the signal up ahead was read it could well be a irregularity, but you'd check.to see the AWS magnet location as if the AWS is inside the station than that signal is a starter even if its not at the end of the platform.

 

[Tomnick]

Melton? Actually not sure it can be as that’s only two stop signals(?). It’s a while since I’ve been that way…

Sorry, missed this one. Uttoxeter, out in the wild west!

 

[rmHawk765]

I used to to sign 350s. Setting the DRA on the move in a 350 knocked out the dynamic braking reverting it to disc brake. It didn't give a full service brake but it was noticeable release of the dynamic brake followed by the disc applying to whatever brake position you had applied.

Ah ok, thanks for the info.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 May 2025 ==

This sounds similar to the 700/717 units (it must be a Siemens thing?), which is why GN/TL drivers only set the DRA once at a stand too.

I'm pretty sure GTR, or at least GN and TL on the 700s and 717s, policy is to (once at a stand at the platform) apply full service braking, set the DRA, and set the reverser to neutral. That makes me wonder though - does having the DRA as its own thing have any benefit over just instructing drivers to set the reverser to neutral? AIUI the idea behind the DRA is that your mind naturally correlates it with checking the signal aspect as it's designed specifically for that purpose. Did the studies when the DRA was being developed prove that setting to neutral, possibly with a warning label to help the connection occur, did not sufficiently make drivers check the aspect?

 

[43066]

I don't know about the 350s, I don't drive them, but I did drive HSTs, and this is the case with them. You can't set the DRA on the move because it gives a full service brake application.

You must have driven different HSTs to the ones I (and @Kneedown) drove! The DRA is not linked to the braking system in any way.

 

[D3WY]

Ah ok, thanks for the info.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 May 2025 ==


I'm pretty sure GTR, or at least GN and TL on the 700s and 717s, policy is to (once at a stand at the platform) apply full service braking, set the DRA, and set the reverser to neutral. That makes me wonder though - does having the DRA as its own thing have any benefit over just instructing drivers to set the reverser to neutral? AIUI the idea behind the DRA is that your mind naturally correlates it with checking the signal aspect as it's designed specifically for that purpose. Did the studies when the DRA was being developed prove that setting to neutral, possibly with a warning label to help the connection occur, did not sufficiently make drivers check the aspect?

Yes GTR say at a station Nuetral and brake step 3 whenever stopped, DRA set if the previous signal was yellow (if there is no starter) or if there is a start set DRA If it's at Danger, turn off DRA soon as it's a proceed aspect.

We are taught not to use DRA on the move

It's just adding more layers of protection, the DRA is just making sure if the driver had the train ina scenario where he/she was using DRA it would MAKE them recheck the signal aspect, ie if they forgot the starting signal was on danger in the middle of self dispatch, they closed doors (closing doors on red is a incident in itself) select foward and take power the DRA stops them taking power.

Another layer of protection, as we know the platform train interface is the most dangerous place for passengers

 

[baz962]

That's a strange one.
I drove HSTs with EMT/EMR for years, and I've never had the brakes go on, on the occasions I've deemed it appropriate to apply the DRA on the move.
Brake release is also possible with the DRA applied, hence the extra vigilance necessary to ensure it is reset before attempting to take power to prevent rollback.

Weirdly I never set them on the move on a 360 but I do on a meridian. I have a love hate relationship with the DRA on a meridian being active. It was the one thing I occasionally forgot to do , was setting the DRA after a single yellow and stopping at a station and the red is out of view and so that really helped me. The flip side though is that on one or two occasions I tried to take power with it still set and of course the alarm starts screaming , made me jump The other annoying thing is coming in on double yellows or a speed restriction and still having to set it at a yellow.

 

[driver9000]

I'm pretty sure GTR, or at least GN and TL on the 700s and 717s, policy is to (once at a stand at the platform) apply full service braking, set the DRA, and set the reverser to neutral. That makes me wonder though - does having the DRA as its own thing have any benefit over just instructing drivers to set the reverser to neutral? AIUI the idea behind the DRA is that your mind naturally correlates it with checking the signal aspect as it's designed specifically for that purpose. Did the studies when the DRA was being developed prove that setting to neutral, possibly with a warning label to help the connection occur, did not sufficiently make drivers check the aspect?

Selecting Neutral also allows you to release the DSD without the setting the Vigilance alarm off and sending alerts to the Signaller. That was long before DRA and GSMR came into existence and some older hands I've worked with used to wrap the cab-to-cab phone cord around the brake handle if they were in a scenario that would today require the DRA to be set.

Remember the DRA doesn't prevent brake release, it prevents traction power being applied and it's specifically associated to signals for the purpose of bringing them back to the Drivers mind and check what they're looking at or what they last looked at in the case of a signal not being in view. The reverser/master switch/direction selector isn't intended to be a reminder for signalling as you would use it in situations that wouldn't fit the DRA purpose.