Serco for Sleeper

[2R84]

plus a bargain berth from £19 or seated advance from £23.90 for the EDB to EUS section.

Does anyone know if Serco are offering Bargain berths or any other promotion / advance fares?

 

[Fishplate84]

"The cheapest Advance fare with Virgin (rte: +AP Rugby) is £22. With East Coast (EC & Connections it is £31."

"For those in the know, and not everyone is, the cheapest way is to split when using the sleeper. NBW to Edinburgh [EDB] is £6.30 plus a bargain berth from £19 or seated advance from £23.90 for the EDB to EUS section."

Virgin and East Coast are moving 60-70 people per coach, its much more a "pile them high, sell them cheap" type service. They can afford to offer a few teasers to generate marginal revenue on low use services.

The sleeper comes nowhere close to that capacity and delivery costs per passenger must be huge in comparison when you take account of cleaning cabins etc. Selling tickets at £19 / £23.90 is commercial lunacy or desperation. It must barely cover the hourly employment cost of one crew. It would make more sense to offer a free taxi and throw in some spending money than sell tickets at that cost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The sleeper comes nowhere close to that capacity and delivery costs per passenger must be huge in comparison when you take account of cleaning cabins etc. Selling tickets at £19 / £23.90 is commercial lunacy or desperation. It must barely cover the hourly employment cost of one crew. It would make more sense to offer a free taxi and throw in some spending money than sell tickets at that cost.

Because the sleeper is fixed-formation and relatively low capacity, it only makes sense to do price-dumps like that if it can't be filled at a higher price. I expect the improved promotion and simpler sales system will mean it can. But if it can't, expect some lower fares to be added.

IOW, it only makes sense to charge £20/berth if those berths would otherwise be empty. Which is the whole principle behind lower-priced Advance tickets on *any* service.

Neil

 

[w1bbl3]

No advance fares?

I think the simplification offered by the website is to remove the distinction between anytime and advance, such that the price displayed is the cheapest available for that service with any/all changes or cancellations subject to a flat £10 admin fee.

The core competitor on the route is either an evening flight to/from London and hotel room overnight or a early morning flight, airlines generally offer only one fare (the cheapest). The previous system advance and anytime tickets with a seated or berth supplement or all inc "bargain breath" tickets made the service appear complex to someone that does not book it regularly.

Thus the prices displayed today for seated, shared and 1st class sleeper beds are probably the cheapest bin advanced sleeper only fare, whilst the standard solo is I suspect the walk-up fare. As we get nearer to the service launching and ticket sales increase I suspect that the standard fares will incrementally increase.

The guest charter states two ticket types are to be available "national rail" and "sleeper only". The sleeper only tickets can only be purchased directly from Serco and are fully refundable. National rail tickets together with a sleeper supplement will I'd guess be available from any ticket provider usual restrictions apply in terms of refunds/cancellations.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I think the rail users of Cornwall and the South West of England will be looking enviously at this new web site to see what they could get from the Night Riviera. At the very least, it will be completely impossible for the DfT to ignore that there are benefits to dealing with the sleeper operations somewhat separately. Maybe splitting two trains a day into their own franchise is too much but even just forcing the new Great Western operator to have a different website, branding and other public-facing elements for the Riviera would do a lot of good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the rail users of Cornwall and the South West of England will be looking enviously at this new web site to see what they could get from the Night Riviera. At the very least, it will be completely impossible for the DfT to ignore that there are benefits to dealing with the sleeper operations somewhat separately. Maybe splitting two trains a day into their own franchise is too much but even just forcing the new Great Western operator to have a different website, branding and other public-facing elements for the Riviera would do a lot of good.

If the Scottish sleeper is successful, might it make sense to remove the Night Riviera from fGW and give it to Serco so they can run one Sleeper franchise covering both?

Neil

 

[Chrism20]

If the Scottish sleeper is successful, might it make sense to remove the Night Riviera from fGW and give it to Serco so they can run one Sleeper franchise covering both?

Neil

On reading it sounds like a good idea and would probably make commercial sense even though they operate at other ends of the UK.

However the two franchises are awarded by different governments so probably very unlikely regardless of the commercial sense or benefit.

 

[Deibitto]

Hi all, new arrival here. Was just looking to book the sleeper in April and didn't realise the operator switch was happening so soon. Can someone please direct me to the new booking site mentioned here as I keep getting sent back to the mixing deck on Scotrail which ends on 27 March?

As for the service, I used it for first time last year with some bargain berths at £39 each way to Aviemore. Great experience to be able to get a day skiing so simply from south England. However, I'm kind of disturbed by what I'm reading. Namely, that it's to be glammed up a hotel on wheels. This would simply encourage me to fly instead as the likely cost difference would negate the added convinience of the sleeper. I'd much prefer to see the introduction of some European-style 4 or 6-berth couchettes which can be offered at a low price. But we seem to have a perculiar aversion to sharing with strangers in the UK...

 

[NotATrainspott]

Hi all, new arrival here. Was just looking to book the sleeper in April and didn't realise the operator switch was happening so soon. Can someone please direct me to the new booking site mentioned here as I keep getting sent back to the mixing deck on Scotrail which ends on 27 March?

As for the service, I used it for first time last year with some bargain berths at £39 each way to Aviemore. Great experience to be able to get a day skiing so simply from south England. However, I'm kind of disturbed by what I'm reading. Namely, that it's to be glammed up a hotel on wheels. This would simply encourage me to fly instead as the likely cost difference would negate the added convinience of the sleeper. I'd much prefer to see the introduction of some European-style 4 or 6-berth couchettes which can be offered at a low price. But we seem to have a perculiar aversion to sharing with strangers in the UK...

https://www.sleeper.scot

One of the reasons there is such a focus upon the hotel side of the operation is that this is the only way the Sleeper can actually be guaranteed for the long term. Within the lifetime of the new rolling stock, HS2 will have reached Scotland properly and reduced journey times to only just above two hours. With that journey time, there is no point in there being a Lowland sleeper whatsoever and even the Highland sleeper starts to look a bit ropey, if the focus is mostly on getting people from A to B. However, there really is a market for people who want to get from A to B but aren't in a hurry to do it and would prefer to sit back and watch the scenery trundle by rather than blur past the window in a high speed train. It's a similar problem to that faced by the ocean liner companies with the dawn of commercial jet aviation, and they've managed to survive by pivoting their services towards the same sort of leisure travellers with cruise services where the purpose of the trip is to enjoy yourself rather than to get there as fast as possible. By working on that style of traveller/guest starting now, any loss of passengers using it for journey time's sake can be smoothed over with no interruption to the service, which will still appeal to a remaining set of business or non-cruise passengers. The alternative is to see the service die with little or no warning, like many of the sleeper services on the Continent. Cruise passengers are also going to be far less concerned about the price of tickets, so filling a train with a lot of them makes it economic to then have a small number of more reasonably priced berths for those who really need them.

Oh, and the main reason that couchettes don't happen in Great Britain is that there isn't enough height available for three bunks to be provided. If you can't fit in three bunks, there is no real extra capacity gained over the current cabins so prices can't be any lower.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for the service, I used it for first time last year with some bargain berths at £39 each way to Aviemore. Great experience to be able to get a day skiing so simply from south England. However, I'm kind of disturbed by what I'm reading. Namely, that it's to be glammed up a hotel on wheels. This would simply encourage me to fly instead as the likely cost difference would negate the added convinience of the sleeper. I'd much prefer to see the introduction of some European-style 4 or 6-berth couchettes which can be offered at a low price. But we seem to have a perculiar aversion to sharing with strangers in the UK...

I'd rather a Kajueteliegewagen - lengthways couchettes with privacy curtains (you get these in SE Asia as well). But I believe there will in the new stock be a middle class, and this isn't couchettes, but instead airline business class style flatbeds.

Neil

 

[amcluesent]

I wonder if the folklore that booking a standard berth but joining or alighting along the route, such as Helensburgh Upper, significantly reduces the risk of sharing is still true?

 

[najaB]

I wonder if the folklore that booking a standard berth but joining or alighting along the route, such as Helensburgh Upper, significantly reduces the risk of sharing is still true?

I have only once shared travelling to or from Dundee out of 30+ journeys.

 

[Deibitto]

https://www.sleeper.scot

One of the reasons there is such a focus upon the hotel side of the operation is that this is the only way the Sleeper can actually be guaranteed for the long term. Within the lifetime of the new rolling stock, HS2 will have reached Scotland properly and reduced journey times to only just above two hours. With that journey time, there is no point in there being a Lowland sleeper whatsoever and even the Highland sleeper starts to look a bit ropey, if the focus is mostly on getting people from A to B. However, there really is a market for people who want to get from A to B but aren't in a hurry to do it and would prefer to sit back and watch the scenery trundle by rather than blur past the window in a high speed train. It's a similar problem to that faced by the ocean liner companies with the dawn of commercial jet aviation, and they've managed to survive by pivoting their services towards the same sort of leisure travellers with cruise services where the purpose of the trip is to enjoy yourself rather than to get there as fast as possible. By working on that style of traveller/guest starting now, any loss of passengers using it for journey time's sake can be smoothed over with no interruption to the service, which will still appeal to a remaining set of business or non-cruise passengers. The alternative is to see the service die with little or no warning, like many of the sleeper services on the Continent. Cruise passengers are also going to be far less concerned about the price of tickets, so filling a train with a lot of them makes it economic to then have a small number of more reasonably priced berths for those who really need them.

Oh, and the main reason that couchettes don't happen in Great Britain is that there isn't enough height available for three bunks to be provided. If you can't fit in three bunks, there is no real extra capacity gained over the current cabins so prices can't be any lower.

Thanks for the reply. I can see that a mix of options brings the revenue required to make it viable, with a focus on the cruise-style as priority. But is there really a large enough market of such passengers for a daily service? I was perhaps a bit brief in my original message - taking the train over flying is always my preference as I enjoy the form of transport, watching the scenery and taking my time while missing the irritation of airports. But despite being pretty well-off, when you start talking £300 plus return to Scotland from London or Crewe then it becomes impossible to justify.

As for HS2 allowing Scotland in 2/3 hours. Well as you say if focus is on A to B then a flight can do me in 2/3 hours now. But then that means finding a hotel for the night so it's not really a time saver.

On the 4-berth couchettes; surely having only one standing area per 4 rather than 2 berths saves space?

 

[cjt0131]

Hi all, new arrival here. Was just looking to book the sleeper in April and didn't realise the operator switch was happening so soon. Can someone please direct me to the new booking site mentioned here as I keep getting sent back to the mixing deck on Scotrail which ends on 27 March?

As for the service, I used it for first time last year with some bargain berths at £39 each way to Aviemore. Great experience to be able to get a day skiing so simply from south England. However, I'm kind of disturbed by what I'm reading. Namely, that it's to be glammed up a hotel on wheels. This would simply encourage me to fly instead as the likely cost difference would negate the added convinience of the sleeper. I'd much prefer to see the introduction of some European-style 4 or 6-berth couchettes which can be offered at a low price. But we seem to have a perculiar aversion to sharing with strangers in the UK...

don't worry the service will be pretty much the same as present until the new operator gets their new trains which will be a few years

unlike some people on here I am not convinced about HS2 so believe the sleeper will be around for many many years to come

yes in years to come it may be more like a hotel on wheels and the price might reflect that

enjoy your trip to scotland

 

[Deibitto]

I'd rather a Kajueteliegewagen - lengthways couchettes with privacy curtains (you get these in SE Asia as well). But I believe there will in the new stock be a middle class, and this isn't couchettes, but instead airline business class style flatbeds.

Neil

Aye, I've travelled on that kind in Central Asia. Flatbeds may work I suppose provided they go truely flat and they have a good sink area in the carriage toilet.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Thanks for the reply. I can see that a mix of options brings the revenue required to make it viable, with a focus on the cruise-style as priority. But is there really a large enough market of such passengers for a daily service? I was perhaps a bit brief in my original message - taking the train over flying is always my preference as I enjoy the form of transport, watching the scenery and taking my time while missing the irritation of airports. But despite being pretty well-off, when you start talking £300 plus return to Scotland from London or Crewe then it becomes impossible to justify.

As for HS2 allowing Scotland in 2/3 hours. Well as you say if focus is on A to B then a flight can do me in 2/3 hours now. But then that means finding a hotel for the night so it's not really a time saver.

On the 4-berth couchettes; surely having only one standing area per 4 rather than 2 berths saves space?

There could be a market for cruise passengers, and this is what Serco are going to start trying to build up. These passengers won't arrive overnight, and the business passengers who currently make up a good proportion of the passengers will disappear quickly once a viable alternative appears. There wouldn't need to be much of a cruise demand for demand to outstrip the limited supply possible, so the loss of business passengers could then just be replaced 1:1, keeping the service alive. If they don't try to build up a market, then the loss of business passengers will leave a gaping hole in the finances of the service and if no one is willing to invest a huge amount in quickly creating a proper cruise market (if such a thing is actually possible in a short term) then the service would see a swift end.

When you think of HS2 you really have to see what has happened to cities that used to have their own sleeper services but now could never sustain one. HS2 will do to Edinburgh and Glasgow what the IC125 did to Bristol, Leeds or York or the West Coast electrification to Manchester and Liverpool. People in a hurry in these places have no qualms with getting up slightly earlier to take the train that arrives in London, or vice-versa, before the start of the business day. It may well be possible to do this in a plane today from the Central Belt but for a good number of people, it won't be what they want to do because it's significantly more stressful and often requires a longer journey in a car or taxi. From an arbitrary location in the urban area around a major city, it will be easier to get into the city centre for a train than it is to get to its airport, then get through the security palaver and get to where you need to go when you arrive at your destination airport.

Even more significant will be demand for intermediate journeys, as HS2 will enable spectacular journey times on stopping high speed services between Scotland and London. The Virgin Trains expresses to Glasgow don't stop anywhere south of Warrington Bank Quay normally, so it may actually be slower to get from Scotland to Milton Keynes or thereabouts than it is to London, which helps the Sleeper loadings for the non-London English destinations. With HS2, it will be economic to run both non-stop and stopping services, calling at places like Crewe or Birmingham Interchange, so that everywhere will see significantly faster journey times. That really does put another nail in the coffin of the service when competing on speed.

I see your point but I can't see it making an enormous difference, as there will only be a couple of beds' worth of space that could be saved in each carriage by doing so. If you only increase capacity by 16%, for example, but people will now refuse to pay any more than 16% less than they do at the moment, you don't end up with any extra revenue and so there's really not a lot of incentive for the operator to do it. To be perfectly honest, I think the best option for ultra-budget travellers is to use the variety of overnight coach services. Sleeper rail services are never gong to be cheap to run, and if the alternative is to end them completely I don't disagree with the view that budget travellers should just use the various overnight coach services instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sleeper rail services are never gong to be cheap to run, and if the alternative is to end them completely I don't disagree with the view that budget travellers should just use the various overnight coach services instead.

This is probably why the European ones are dying - they're aimed at Interrailers and the likes mainly, and that traffic (a) isn't massively profitable, and (b) is a bit fickle when coaches are an option.

Though the sleeper Megabus is surprisingly good, I've used it!

Does anyone know what form the pod flatbeds will take - 1+1+1 perhaps with two aisles? Or 2+1? The artist's impressions make it look like 1+1, which assuming a proper length flatbed of at least 6' will make them take up the same amount of room as, or more room than, berths.

I would find such an option quite attractive at the right price, as I'd rather share an open area with privacy divisions and locking facilities for valuables with a large number of people than a cabin with one person, which is awkwardly intimate with someone you don't know. But however nice the seat I can't sleep in a seat, I need to be horizontal.

Neil

 

[najaB]

Though the sleeper Megabus is surprisingly good, I've used it!

I've only used it the once and, while it was better than I thought it would be, I didn't find it nearly as comfortable as the Sleeper.

But however nice the seat I can't sleep in a seat, I need to be horizontal.

Generally I agree, however I'd take the current Sleeper seat over the Megabus berth any day night. I don't think I got more than 20 minutes uninterrupted sleep on the bus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've only used it the once and, while it was better than I thought it would be, I didn't find it nearly as comfortable as the Sleeper.

Indeed not, though ISTR I paid £20 for the bus (booked well in advance), and £200 for the Sleeper (First Class). The Sleeper was better but not 10 times better

Generally I agree, however I'd take the current Sleeper seat over the Megabus berth any day night. I don't think I got more than 20 minutes uninterrupted sleep on the bus.

I found it a bit odd. Basically I slept solidly through the bit where it was just going down the motorway, but woke up every time it pulled off (3 or 4 times I think) to swap drivers over (it has 2, the one not driving acts as a sort of conductor). So my slightly odd memory of it is of 3-4 service station stops in very close succession then arriving at Glasgow.

Neil

 

[Class 170101]

The sleeper shouldn't really be about time but convenience.

The idea of getting the Sleeper from Glasgow at 22:00 (approx) bound for London is more appealing than boarding the 04:28 Glasgow to Euston and in some respects a more productive use of my time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The idea of getting the Sleeper from Glasgow at 22:00 (approx) bound for London is more appealing than boarding the 04:28 Glasgow to Euston and in some respects a more productive use of my time.

That it is, but will the need for such things reduce a bit? The main uses are (a) 9am meetings (why on earth organise a 9am meeting for people from out of town? It's pointless. Do it at 11am or 1pm instead!), and (b) weekly commuters. If doing the latter, now remote working is much more viable for the sort of jobs where people are doing this, a more civilised way to do it is to work from home Monday, travel Monday evening, 3 full days with a proper nights' sleep in London, then return Thursday evening, working from home on Friday.

Neil

 

[amcluesent]

If the polls are to be believed, after May the sleeper will be booked solid by newly elected SNP MP's travelling to and from Westminster!

 

[najaB]

If the polls are to be believed, after May the sleeper will be booked solid by newly elected SNP MP's travelling to and from Westminster!

Why, do Labour, Tories or Lib Dems not travel by train? There will be the same number of MPs travelling, regardless of party.

 

[NotATrainspott]

If the polls are to be believed, after May the sleeper will be booked solid by newly elected SNP MP's travelling to and from Westminster!

Why, do Labour, Tories or Lib Dems not travel by train? There will be the same number of MPs travelling, regardless of party.

That a good number of MPs use the Sleeper is one of the reasons we still have it today. I've heard that the Highland Sleeper lounge car is the place to be if you want the political gossip straight from the horses' mouth.

 

[66C]

Irish Mk3 generator car on back of lorry on way north on M74 on Thursday night. Anything to do with Serco?

 

[adrianboult]

Am I right in thinking that the standard class berths on the sleeper no longer include use of the lounge car (says counter service when I try to book) - or is it as before where you can use it if space is available - but with priority for first class.
Can't seem to see any clear guidance on the new website..
I don't want to have to take food back to a berth - particularly on the journey in the morning towards FW which is the highlight of the journey.

Cheers for any help in advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Am I right in thinking that the standard class berths on the sleeper no longer include use of the lounge car (says counter service when I try to book) - or is it as before where you can use it if space is available - but with priority for first class.

I agree that seems to be the implication, though in practice I'm not sure if it's true or not.

I really don't see the sense in having classes on the Sleeper - just have accommodation categories - single, twin and seat. By all means give those booking single rooms priority in the lounge car, but the distinction between "First Class single" and "Standard Class single" is meaningless.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Irish Mk3 generator car on back of lorry on way north on M74 on Thursday night. Anything to do with Serco?

Doubt it, the trains are too long to add an extra vehicle.

Neil

 

[Essexman]

The sleeper shouldn't really be about time but convenience.

The idea of getting the Sleeper from Glasgow at 22:00 (approx) bound for London is more appealing than boarding the 04:28 Glasgow to Euston and in some respects a more productive use of my time.

This is why I use it - from London to Scotland. I travel, sleeping in the time that I would normally sleep in my bed and arrive at the time I'd normally get up. Time for a shower, breakfast and to see two or three customers (usually around Glasgow, often with the bonus of some free time before travelling home the next night. In fact once or twice a year I get a late afternoon train to Pitlochry and spend a pleasant evening there before picking up the sleeper just before 11pm.

 

[Chris125]

Irish Mk3 generator car on back of lorry on way north on M74 on Thursday night. Anything to do with Serco?

I'd have thought that's one of the Mk3s Belmond have brought over for refurbishment in Scotland.

Chris

 

[Chrism20]

I agree that seems to be the implication, though in practice I'm not sure if it's true or not.

I really don't see the sense in having classes on the Sleeper - just have accommodation categories - single, twin and seat. By all means give those booking single rooms priority in the lounge car, but the distinction between "First Class single" and "Standard Class single" is meaningless.

Neil

I agree it only seems to confuse most people I speak to regarding the sleeper, many of them being infrequent travellers or getting on in life.

With the teaming up with Inverlochy I wouldn't be surprised if it goes to something like "Standard" and "Executive" etc once the new rolling stock arrives.