Serco for Sleeper

[Steve childs]

a

There's a part of the brochure linked above which says the following:



I'm no doubt putting two and two together to get five but that indicates Polmadie as a Scottish possibility to me. I hope not for the sake of those at Inverness.

The features on the train from that brochure look fantastic. I hope it works out as well as it is planned to do. I'm not too keen on the old "enforced entertainment" either though, the lounge car is an excellent experience IMO. Nothing quite like bolting through the highlands with a beautiful malt, good company and plate of haggis, neeps and tatties!

Where can you read the brochure please. I work in Inverness maybe I should jump while I can. Sleeper maintenance gets done at polmadie at the moment as well as Inverness and Wembley.

 

[cf111]

Where can you read the brochure please. I work in Inverness maybe I should jump while I can. Sleeper maintenance gets done at polmadie at the moment as well as Inverness and Wembley.

You can find it here: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...an Sleeper/Caledonian Sleeper Briefing v5.pdf

The part about Alstom is on page 5 under the heading "Scottish Businesses".

 

[infobleep]

I'd say 4 seated coaches in the Lowlands each would be too many, especially since you only have one First class. Also, remember that the number of pax/coach will be less if they are to add ensuites.

As they are looking to grow the service, they can't have less numbers on board the services.

Personally I don't like sitting on sleeper trains over night. Equally though I don't mind sharing my space. So I'd happily sleep in a dorm if that's what the flat beds effectively become. I'm use to staying in hostels because a) There cheaper and b) You get more opportunities to chat to other people rather than be locked away in a room on your own.

However the price would still need to be attractive to me because I only travel on the sleeper for leisure. Last time I paid £36 from Euston to Glasgow. If it became double that I might fly instead. I suspect they will still have cheaper prices for people like myself. However they do need to recover some of their build and operating costs.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[infobleep]

I had to chuckle at that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I mentioned further up the thread, there are already a number of mark 3 sleepers scattered across preserved railways, primarily used as volunteer accommodation.

They seem to be in varying states of repair, so having examples in running condition might be another matter, but then again, there's not really much call for sleeping accommodation on heritage railway services! Preserving one or more of the lounge cars might have some merit, however, but would only be relevant with diesel traction with electric train heat capability.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hear hear!

Yes I only read your comment after I posted, as I was still catching up on the thread. Good to hear some have been preserved already, even if only used by staff. I think all different types of rail carriages should be preserved.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[jopsuk]

Where can you read the brochure please. I work in Inverness maybe I should jump while I can. Sleeper maintenance gets done at polmadie at the moment as well as Inverness and Wembley.

Can I suggest talking to your union reps and/or management instead of relying on an internet forum when it comes to information about the future of your job?

 

[Bodiddly]

"The Franchisee will contract with Alstom to provide
maintenance during the first three years of the
contract which is expected to be extended to the
end of the franchise term"
From the brochure.

I never noticed this before. That probably does mean the end for Sleeper maintenance at Inverness as Alstom are based in Polmadie in Glasgow.

 

[Steve childs]

Thanks for the link. Ill no sleep the night now but thanks all the same. Any other info is much appreciated

 

[Bodiddly]

Can I suggest talking to your union reps and/or management instead of relying on an internet forum when it comes to information about the future of your job?

Why don't you stop posting unhelpful posts? People's livelihood's are on the line. The Unions and management know about as much as anyone on this forum!

 

[Steve childs]

Can I suggest talking to your union reps and/or management instead of relying on an internet forum when it comes to information about the future of your job?

Iv talked to management and they keep saying until they are blue in the face that there is plenty of work and more work is coming. I read too much and think I know more about it than they do. Never joined union. Am bricking it.

 

[carriageline]

"The Franchisee will contract with Alstom to provide

maintenance during the first three years of the

contract which is expected to be extended to the

end of the franchise term"

From the brochure.



I never noticed this before. That probably does mean the end for Sleeper maintenance at Inverness as Alstom are based in Polmadie in Glasgow.

ALSTOM maintain it now (albeit light maintenance perhaps) at Wembley.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Liam]

I would hope the Scottish Government would have had something in the contract to protect the maintenance jobs in Inverness.

I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't though..

 

[Bodiddly]

ALSTOM maintain it now (albeit light maintenance perhaps) at Wembley.

There is no way it's going South of the border anytime soon, that would be political suicide on behalf of the Nationalists yes campaign.

 

[CallySleeper]

It's because the ensuites take up more space that I suspect there will be more emphasis on seated cradles/pods.

The tender specifies minimums of 15% business class cabins and 20% standard class cabins but is a little unclear on how the total capacity is calculated.

My point is that in order to fulfil this minimum requirement, you're more than likely going to need 2 first class coaches. A lot would hang on the capacity of a seated coach.

I've read the brochure, and I'm concerned that there's a few things which are a bit fancy and might not materialise. Also, there are other things I'm not so happy about, for example the fixed seating in the lounge car (albeit an illustration). Also, 'themed nights'?! This isn't a social club with regulars...

 

[BantamMenace]

My point is that in order to fulfil this minimum requirement, you're more than likely going to need 2 first class coaches. A lot would hang on the capacity of a seated coach.

I've read the brochure, and I'm concerned that there's a few things which are a bit fancy and might not materialise. Also, there are other things I'm not so happy about, for example the fixed seating in the lounge car (albeit an illustration). Also, 'themed nights'?! This isn't a social club with regulars...

I've heard rumours of a Karaoke train leaving Fort William every wednesday night

 

[Drimnagh Road]

Ironically the coaches in the brochure look similar to our Irish Rail mk4s, which truly are attrocious pieces of junk... and built by CAF in 2006.

Many of them are laid up at the moment, displaced by new DMUs, and we were joking earlier after seeing the brochure if Serco were buying them to convert to sleepers...

If they ride like our ones do, nobody will be getting any sleep.

(PS, yes I know it's just an artists impression).

 

[fgwrich]

It's a class 92, but as you say, may well be only an indicative illustration.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm really impressed with what Serco are promising to bring to the Caledonian Sleeper, except for the idea of "special themed evenings" in the club car: I like the current quiet, relaxed ambience of the lounge car, and don't want to have to become a recluse ordering whiskies on room service to sup in my cabin if that is lost! I'm not one for enforced entertainment.

Given that it's Serco, i'm still going to take it with a large pinch of salt (worked with / and had friends work for them, but they left our leisure centre in a poor state even though it's now that old!) But those plans do look interesting, and I'm glad that CAF are to build the replacement stock - a tag on order the the Great Western perhaps?

As for the themed nights, no thanks! I'm also interested to see how the menu part devised by Michelin Stared Albert Roux will be carried out by Serco - Will it be workable and kept or will it end up as another Heston takes on Little Chef where a companies desire to drive down costs eventually saw Heston's menu be replaced by the bog standard Little Chef menu? Although for the Caley Sleeper it must at least be a step up from a small Mk2 kitchen to a proper one at least.

I wonder who will be providing the locos - has that been formally announced yet? As there were several rumours abound, including the use of GBRF 73/9s - imagine waking up to a 73 in Fort William, you'd think you'd been on the Whiskeys all night!

 

[Pumbaa]

92s and re-engined 73s from GBRf.

 

[Beveridges]

73's have more than enough power with those new 1600hp engines. Yes, not as powerful as 37 but a 37 was overpowered for just 4 coaches and a 67 even more so.

 

[carriageline]

ALSTOM maintain it now (albeit light maintenance perhaps) at Wembley.



There is no way it's going South of the border anytime soon, that would be political suicide on behalf of the Nationalists yes campaign.

Fair enough, but where do they propose stabling it throughout the day?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BRX]

There have been mentions in this thread of the effect of HS2 on the market for the lowland sleepers and also of the ill-fated Nightstar stock.

I can't help but wonder if there is a major missed opportunity here, if new stock is going to be built, and journey times within the UK potentially reduced. Why not revisit the idea of night trains from the UK (particularly the more northern parts) to the continent? A train that left glasgow late in the evening and got you to central Brussels or Paris in the morning could be genuinely useful in the same way that the London one is at present.

And it would be great to have night trains from London to, say, Munich or Berlin.

 

[Furrball]

I am puzzled by the obsession with en-suite. Is there really a demand for this?

The themed lounge car sounds like hell on earth, who on earth researched this and thought this would expect a good idea/something that passengers want?

 

[DownSouth]

I think they look a little like the profile view of Serco's excellent Budd Company sleeper and seated coaches that they run on the three GSR routes in Australia - but thankfully they won't fit in your loading gauge and you can't have them.

I also think nothing should be read into such artwork. They don't even have couplers.

There have been mentions in this thread of the effect of HS2 on the market for the lowland sleepers and also of the ill-fated Nightstar stock.

I can't help but wonder if there is a major missed opportunity here, if new stock is going to be built, and journey times within the UK potentially reduced. Why not revisit the idea of night trains from the UK (particularly the more northern parts) to the continent? A train that left glasgow late in the evening and got you to central Brussels or Paris in the morning could be genuinely useful in the same way that the London one is at present.

And it would be great to have night trains from London to, say, Munich or Berlin.

Good possibility. Running onto the high speed routes would certainly allow a higher speed around 200-240km/h to be kept up without the ride quality being compromised. If HS2 pulls the bottom out from underneath the sleeper market there would surely be a willingness from the Scottish Government (whether they secede from the UK or not) to renegotiate the routes provided.

 

[Holmbridge]

I am puzzled by the obsession with en-suite. Is there really a demand for this?

In answer to your question.....yes. The older you get the more this becomes relevant!

 

[DownSouth]

I am puzzled by the obsession with en-suite. Is there really a demand for this?

That's nothing less than standard for a sleeper. Having to alight and use a shared shower block at the station is rather low-rent.

The themed lounge car sounds like hell on earth, who on earth researched this and thought this would expect a good idea/something that passengers want?

Providing entertainment options has been quite popular on long-distance trains around the world for many years. Don't worry, it won't take over the whole club car if it's anything like what gets offered elsewhere - including on Serco's GSR trains in Australia where it's very low key and quite useful for keeping children occupied.

 

[HSTEd]

Well this sounds like a money hole.

 

[Holmbridge]

Well this sounds like a money hole.

By the time this all happens the Scottish nation may well be independent and as an Englishman I will happily accept their generous subsidies towards any fare.

 

[Condor7]

In answer to your question.....yes. The older you get the more this becomes relevant!

I concur with that!

 

[duncanp]

I have travelled on the Indian Pacific, and unless you travel in the really expensive Platinum class, you don't get en-suite facilities.

However there is a shared shower block on the train, which is different to the Caledonian Sleeper, where there are no shower facilities of any kind.

By contrast, The Canadian from Vancouver to Toronto has a toilet and sink in each cabin, plus a shower for every 2 - 3 carriages.

I certainly think that the new rolling stock should have one shower per 2 carriages on the train.

I have a vested interest in this as I am travelling from London to Glasgow tomorrow night on the sleeper, and unless you get off as soon as the train arrives in Glasgow, there can be a queue for the showers at the station.

 

[Altnabreac]

My point is that in order to fulfil this minimum requirement, you're more than likely going to need 2 first class coaches. A lot would hang on the capacity of a seated coach.

I've read the brochure, and I'm concerned that there's a few things which are a bit fancy and might not materialise. Also, there are other things I'm not so happy about, for example the fixed seating in the lounge car (albeit an illustration). Also, 'themed nights'?! This isn't a social club with regulars...

Re-reading the ITT I'm sure you're right and it may actually need to be 3 coaches of business class per 8 coach train.

If we assume 9 cabins per standard coach we're probably looking at 5 cabins in a business class coach. I'll assume 30 cradle/pod seats per coach.

The ITT seems to imply we need to count cabins not berths to calculate the 15% so if we have a train with 5 sleeper coaches and 2 seated total capacity will be either 97 (2 business class, 3 standard) or 93 (3 business class, 2 standard).

To hit the 15% target it will need to be 3 business class and 2 standard sleepers with 2 seated coaches. Fort William / Aberdeen will need to be 1 of each.

So you're looking at a nightly requirement of:
22 business class
16 standard class
10 Club Car
16 Seated coaches (at least 10 with cycle/luggage space)

 

[kylemore]

What I've seen suggests that there will be business-class cabins that have en-suites, standard cabins that aren't much different than today and these pod things as a kind of couchette-style accommodation. Since any new stock has to have a minimum 30 year life, that means they'll still be trundling around in 2048 which would be many years (a decade or so even) beyond the opening date of a HS line. An early-morning non-stop path from the Central Belt to London and vice-versa could have a journey time of only around 2 hours (especially if standard 360km/h running becomes economical by then) and thus will definitively kill off the lowland sleeper once and for all, meaning that any stock would have to have some use as 'scenic trains' along the WHL, HML and Aberdeen line for the tourists.

Well you can fly from Glasgow to London in an hour, city centre to city centre in around 3 and the sleeper lives with that. HS2 times are unlikely to be much under 3 hrs for a long time anyway.
It's going to be primarily a leisure/tourist product so one way it could go is more seasonal with a reduced service November-March- ish.
The case for extending it through the tunnel to Paris/Brussels/Cologne/Frankfurt is fairly obvious and only in the UK would that be seen as difficult/impossible.