Semaphore signalling

[Steam Man]

Is there any mainlines or branch lines that still use semaphore signalling or is it all controlled by lights these days.

 

[_toommm_]

You’ve still got quite a few to choose from, with these lines being at least part signalled by semaphores:

• Settle to Carlisle Line.
• Harrogate Loop.
• Newcastle to Carlisle.
• Carlisle to Glasgow (via Dumfries) I believe.
• Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog I believe.
• Holyhead to Chester.
• Esk Valley Line.
• Cumbrian Coast.
• Hull to Scarborough may still have a few semaphores left.
• Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Brigg.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Much of the Cornish mainline is still semaphore. Also an island of semaphores exists at Yeovil Pen Mill.

 

[alangla]

Add on Ayr to Stranraer, north of Dunblane to Inverness via both Aviemore and Dundee/Aberdeen (but excluding both cities) and if you want semaphores under OHLE, the Grangemouth branch.

 

[superkev]

You’ve still got quite a few to choose from, with these lines being at least part signalled by semaphores:

• Settle to Carlisle Line.
• Harrogate Loop.
• Newcastle to Carlisle.
• Carlisle to Glasgow (via Dumfries) I believe.
• Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog I believe.
• Holyhead to Chester.
• Esk Valley Line.
• Cumbrian Coast.
• Hull to Scarborough may still have a few semaphores left.
• Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Brigg.

I watched one of Railmarts YouTube cab rides from Acton Yard to St Pancreas stone terminal. I was amazed to see so many manual signalboxes, semaphores and bullhead rails so near central london.
As well as semaphores there cant be many lines with traditional token instruments. As mentioned on another thread Harrogae York changes to tokenless block next month.
K

 

[geoffk]

Aren't Worcester and Shrewsbury still islands of semaphore signalling?

 

[theironroad]

Is there any mainlines or branch lines that still use semaphore signalling or is it all controlled by lights these days.

I'm always surprised at just now much semaphore is left around the country. Simple but does the job.

 

[Colin1501]

Welsh Marches line (Abergavenny to Shrewsbury), Worcester (mentioned above) and Moreton-in-Marsh on the Cotswold line, Hope Valley, Hazel Grove (exclusive) to Buxton, Stoke-on-Trent to Derby. There are a few 'islands' of semaphore on the former Southern Region - Deal, Hastings, Littlehampton and Bognor Regis.

 

[midland1]

North East of Syston to near Peterborough

 

[Scotrail84]

Add on Ayr to Stranraer, north of Dunblane to Inverness via both Aviemore and Dundee/Aberdeen (but excluding both cities) and if you want semaphores under OHLE, the Grangemouth branch.

Pitlochry and Aviemore are now colour lights along with carrbridge.

I believe greenloaning between dunblane and gleneagles has the last co-acting semaphore signal in Scotland, easily seen from the road bridge, I can’t think of any manual distant signals in scotland, not sure if there are any left unfortunately.

Cupar to leuchars is semaphore. Carnoustie, Arbroath, montrose (1 i think) Inverkeilor, Laurencekirk, craigo, Carmont and Stonehaven all semaphores. Newtonhill box is now abolished and under control of Aberdeen SC I believe.

 

[Tom Quinne]

West of Carmarthen is still in the main semaphore signalled, Park Junction on the Ebbw Vale branch likewise.

Tondu station area, along with the Ogmore Vale near Bridgend also has semaphore signals controlled from local SB.

Most of the Marches route from Little Mill SB (a little North of Newport) through to Saltney Junction (Chester) via Shrewsbury.

North Wales coast from Conwy to Holyhead also still mechanically signalled.

There’s even pockets in London at Greenford, Tottenham and Acton area.

 

[MadMac]

Pitlochry and Aviemore are now colour lights along with carrbridge.

I believe greenloaning between dunblane and gleneagles has the last co-acting semaphore signal in Scotland, easily seen from the road bridge, I can’t think of any manual distant signals in scotland, not sure if there are any left unfortunately.

Cupar to leuchars is semaphore. Carnoustie, Arbroath, montrose (1 i think) Inverkeilor, Laurencekirk, craigo, Carmont and Stonehaven all semaphores. Newtonhill box is now abolished and under control of Aberdeen SC I believe.

Only operational semaphore distant in Scotland is at Glenwhilly, which I believe is motor-operated. Carrbridge has been colour light since 1979! Correct re the co-actor at Greenloaning. Very little Tokenless Block and Tablet/Token left as well.

 

[Jozhua]

Out of interest, how old are the semaphores on these lines?

And how much does it generally cost to run them vs centralised control, I'd presume they have to be more frequent?

 

[Scotrail84]

Out of interest, how old are the semaphores on these lines?

And how much does it generally cost to run them vs centralised control, I'd presume they have to be more frequent?

Can't answer that question but there was a brand new Home Semaphore signal installed on the Up platform at Montrose station for departing in the down direction a few years ago IIRC.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Modern colour light signalling with axle counters are generally cheaper over the life of the assets than retaining mechanical signalling.

Generally mechanical signalling area which are Resignalling go into go into signalling centres, often plugged onto existing panels.

Thankfully at least round here displaced staff have moved to other locations, so the staff costs are minimal if at all.

But, if it’s not broke why change it? Increased service levels which often drive Resignalling schemes aren’t happening now so there’s no current requirement to push many schemes forward.

 

[The Planner]

But, if it’s not broke why change it? Increased service levels which often drive Resignalling schemes aren’t happening now so there’s no current requirement to push many schemes forward.

True, but a lot of it is becoming life expired. Even colour light areas.

 

[NickO]

Acton Canal Wharf to Dudding Hill is still mechanically signalled. All semaphores at Neasden Junction were replaced this year with new mechanical signals manufactured by Collis engineering

 

[Gloster]

I read somewhere that the cost of signal wire, i.e. the stuff that connects the levers to the arms, was rocketing. I would not be popular nowadays, as I broke several wires by overtightening until I learn’t how not to.

 

[Whistler40145]

Are there Semaphore signals around Grange over Sands?

 

[LowLevel]

Out of interest, how old are the semaphores on these lines?

And how much does it generally cost to run them vs centralised control, I'd presume they have to be more frequent?

They vary. A lot were installed in the 70s/80s to replace earlier structures. Components can be replaced. Most semaphore posts are nowhere near as old as people think - they do rot and require replacing. The famous semaphores at Skegness for example were largely renewed in the 90s. There is a big programme ongoing at the moment to replace failing structures with horrible modern galvanised edifices.

Modern colour light signalling with axle counters are generally cheaper over the life of the assets than retaining mechanical signalling.

Generally mechanical signalling area which are Resignalling go into go into signalling centres, often plugged onto existing panels.

Thankfully at least round here displaced staff have moved to other locations, so the staff costs are minimal if at all.

But, if it’s not broke why change it? Increased service levels which often drive Resignalling schemes aren’t happening now so there’s no current requirement to push many schemes forward.

Condition of wiring often drives renewals. If you're going to rewire a signalbox you may as well replace it with less disruption, using modern techniques where you can overlay new on old. Stafford for example had had the wiring in the relay rooms condemned years before and one of them had a collapsed roof. Far more cost effective to just replace the lot.

 

[janahan]

Are ALL semaphores manually controlled (IE a human in a signal box)?

The reason i asked is in a recent conversation I had with a neighbour, he suggested some are actually controlled centrally (similar to lights) using motors to actuate the arms. He claimed, the only reason they were not changed to lights was due to sighting and other reasons, where to change to lights would require surveys, and other works not justifying the cost in some places?

 

[stantheman]

How many lower quadrant are still in use .

 

[LowLevel]

Are ALL semaphores manually controlled (IE a human in a signal box)?

The reason i asked is in a recent conversation I had with a neighbour, he suggested some are actually controlled centrally (similar to lights) using motors to actuate the arms. He claimed, the only reason they were not changed to lights was due to sighting and other reasons, where to change to lights would require surveys, and other works not justifying the cost in some places?

Motor worked signals have been in existence for a very long time. Also electro-pneumatic or hydraulic versions using switches, slide handles etc. You don't have to work them using a wire from a lever. Gloucester panel used to work a semaphore distant by motor. You can still work motorised signals using a lever for interlocking purposes, you just turn the lever into a giant switch.

 

[Colin1501]

Out of interest, how old are the semaphores on these lines?

And how much does it generally cost to run them vs centralised control, I'd presume they have to be more frequent?

In 2005, I had an interesting conversation with the signaller at Eccles Road, on the Ely to Norwich line. He said that signallers' salaries were by far the biggest cost - equipment maintenance was largely 'patch and mend' where necessary. On that line, 40 signallers were required to cover the 9 boxes. At an average of £25K each, annual salary costs were £1 million. Network Rail had estimated the cost of resignalling at £150 million, so in terms of cost savings the scheme was going to take a long time to pay for itself! Of course, the modular signalling eventually installed in 2012 might have worked out cheaper - it was certainly meant to be.

 

[The Planner]

In 2005, I had an interesting conversation with the signaller at Eccles Road, on the Ely to Norwich line. He said that signallers' salaries were by far the biggest cost - equipment maintenance was largely 'patch and mend' where necessary. On that line, 40 signallers were required to cover the 9 boxes. At an average of £25K each, annual salary costs were £1 million. Network Rail had estimated the cost of resignalling at £150 million, so in terms of cost savings the scheme was going to take a long time to pay for itself! Of course, the modular signalling eventually installed in 2012 might have worked out cheaper - it was certainly meant to be.

Its more than £25K if you start including pensions etc.. then you factor in delay minutes saved for less failures and so on. It isn't as cut and dried as just the salary.

 

[LowLevel]

Its more than £25K if you start including pensions etc.. then you factor in delay minutes saved for less failures and so on. It isn't as cut and dried as just the salary.

Albeit the Norwich to Ely line will have put significant holes in the business case with the number of total failures and problems that occurred

The OD crossings didn't work well, there were several inherent problems with the design and implementation and so on (every time you put a train inside at Eccles Road you have to caution the next trains on the main lines to remove aspect restrictions, unless they've finally fixed that).

That is on top of the other issues like level crossing workload causing a number of unpleasant incidents.

All in all I think the success of that particular scheme could be called mixed.

 

[The Planner]

Albeit the Norwich to Ely line will have put significant holes in the business case with the number of total failures and problems that occurred

The OD crossings didn't work well, there were several inherent problems with the design and implementation and so on (every time you put a train inside at Eccles Road you have to caution the next trains on the main lines to remove aspect restrictions, unless they've finally fixed that).

That is on top of the other issues like level crossing workload causing a number of unpleasant incidents.

All in all I think the success of that particular scheme could be called mixed.

Yes, but that occurred after, when you are proposing a scheme you would normally assume a slightly better implementation!

 

[theironroad]

How many lower quadrant are still in use .

Still quite a lot in West country on mainline down to Penzance.

 

[Scotrail84]

How many lower quadrant are still in use .

Must be quite a few down Devon and Cornwall way with one or two maybe still in London as well?

 

[Colin1501]

How many lower quadrant are still in use .

Still quite a lot in West country on mainline down to Penzance.

Worcester, Shrewsbury, Moreton-in-Marsh, quite a lot on the Welsh Marches line, although intermixed with some upper quadrants as well.