Selective door opening

[Esurient]

Do they? I read that the Class 170/1s have a more basic version.

They do indeed, well, a de-select option anyway.

They all have the same version. Only difference is a 170/1 will only have one SDO panel on the set of doors closest to & on the same side as the loo.

Whereas our 170/3,5,6 have a panel at each set of doors closest to the loo.

All middle coaches have an SDO panel at 1 pair of doors.

 

[40129]

What happens if a train that has SDO gets coupled to a train that doesnt have SDO? For example i know 170 Turbostars with SDO sometimes get coupled to 150 / 153 / 156 / 158 Sprinters without SDO. I presume that the SDO wouldnt work (or would it just work for the 170 coaches)?

On a cl-153+170 combo the cl-170 will de-select all doors in the cars behind the one in which the SDO button is pressed, including those on the cl-153. Thus you can effectively lock out a cl-153 using the cl-170s SDO but not the other way around

 

[craigybagel]

Can anyone confirm do the 175s have full SDO that allows the Guard to open up any amount of coaches (similar to the 180s) or do they only have unit de select?

They only have deselect. I'm not sure why several people have commented on 175s having full SDO because they're all wrong! It's rarely used with both units in use, usually only one of the units is open for public use with the deselect used to keep passengers out of the trailing set throughout.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

They only have deselect. I'm not sure why several people have commented on 175s having full SDO because they're all wrong! It's rarely used with both units in use, usually only one of the units is open for public use with the deselect used to keep passengers out of the trailing set throughout.

Could they easily be upgraded to have full SDO?

 

[craigybagel]

Could they easily be upgraded to have full SDO?

With enough time, money and electrical cable I'm sure you can do anything....There's not much call for it at the moment - the only booked working in passenger service is for a 4 car set which fits at every station it stops at so it would only be of use on rugby days and other special events where 5 or even 6 car workings occasionally turn up (the latter scenario is more of an issue on the marches than on the coast) - but maybe in the future when we have enough units to double up on services then who knows?

The door controls have had some degree of modification already. Originally, doors could only be opened from the cab's - the intermediate panels only had buttons to close the doors, not open them. Originally I believe the driver opened the doors and the guard closed but given the amount of short platforms in Wales this was problematic so they've been modified to give the guards full control, with opening and closing buttons at every panel. The TUDI switch (trailing unit door isolation) is only in cabs though.

 

[philthetube]

Don't GWR's HSTs have SDO in that the guard can release all door ahead of his local door?

yes, I have seen the panel when disembarking. (sounds more sophisticated that getting off).

 

[GW43125]

yes, I have seen the panel when disembarking. (sounds more sophisticated that getting off).

IIRC, when they key-in, the key switch has 4 positions:

• Off
• Release all
• Release ahead
• Release behind

 

[SpacePhoenix]

With enough time, money and electrical cable I'm sure you can do anything....There's not much call for it at the moment - the only booked working in passenger service is for a 4 car set which fits at every station it stops at so it would only be of use on rugby days and other special events where 5 or even 6 car workings occasionally turn up (the latter scenario is more of an issue on the marches than on the coast) - but maybe in the future when we have enough units to double up on services then who knows?

The door controls have had some degree of modification already. Originally, doors could only be opened from the cab's - the intermediate panels only had buttons to close the doors, not open them. Originally I believe the driver opened the doors and the guard closed but given the amount of short platforms in Wales this was problematic so they've been modified to give the guards full control, with opening and closing buttons at every panel. The TUDI switch (trailing unit door isolation) is only in cabs though.

What was the standard offered by Alstom for the Coradia 1000's?

 

[Bletchleyite]

ISTR that the door mods were an anti DOO measure by the unions in FNW days.


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[craigybagel]

ISTR that the door mods were an anti DOO measure by the unions in FNW days.


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The opening buttons on the intermediate panels were added in ATW days.

 

[BestWestern]

IIRC, when they key-in, the key switch has 4 positions:

• Off
• Release all
• Release ahead
• Release behind

Indeed, along with 'Hold'. There is no local door facility on an HST, you cannot open one door somewhere in the middle of the train - just everything one way or the other. The exceptions to this are the Guards' van, which is not on the CDL circuit, and the other far end of the train, where 'Doors Behind' will select only that one door, as there is nothing behind!

 

[GW43125]

Indeed, along with 'Hold'. There is no local door facility on an HST, you cannot open one door somewhere in the middle of the train - just everything one way or the other. The exceptions to this are the Guards' van, which is not on the CDL circuit, and the other far end of the train, where 'Doors Behind' will select only that one door, as there is nothing behind!

Thick question time, what does "hold" do?

 

[BestWestern]

Thick question time, what does "hold" do?

I was waiting for that...!! Not thick at all, rocket science in fact!

Briefly; when the doors are locked on an HST, the panel used sends a continuous 'lock signal' around the CDL circuits - a bit like switching on a light. This fails safe, so in the event of a power failure the CDL will fail unlocked, rather than trap everyone on board. When you then unlock, the panel stops sending this 'signal' and the doors unlock. Simples. Only, it was designed always to have the whole train locked and unlocked, before SDO. So it didn't matter where on board you unlocked from, because the whole train was being opened that previous panel sending the signal would also be unlocked, and thus would stop sending the signal.....are you with me?!

SDO introduced a problem. Let's say you locked up from the rear coach at Oxford, and the next stop is Hanborough which requires only the front two coaches to be unlocked - that last panel at the rear will continue sending the lock signal, even while you're operating the SDO elsewhere, because it isn't being unlocked and the signal isn't being cancelled. This effect can be overridden whilst you have a panel active elsewhere, (keys in, panel in Doors Ahead/Behind), but as soon as the Guard turns the panel off to remove his keys and venture onto the platform, that other panel kicks back in and all the doors lock again. So, 'Hold' was devised, which essentially keeps the second panel active but allows keys to be removed, meaning that panel continues to override the lock signal being sent from elsewhere.

Are you still with me?!

It works well, but it's restrictive in that the Guard has to return back to that panel to lock up again, because it is still live and no other panel can therefore be used. Sometimes it's unavoidable, but the general approach is always to try and lock using a panel which will be within the part of the train being unlocked next time, thus avoiding the issue

 

[craigybagel]

Indeed, along with 'Hold'. There is no local door facility on an HST, you cannot open one door somewhere in the middle of the train - just everything one way or the other.

On loco hauled MKIII stock you can operate just the local door by pressing the door release buttons for a very quick amount of time, as opposed to the several seconds you need to hold them in for to release the doors on the entire rake. Until recently this was done every day at Helsby on the 07:38 Chester - Manchester Piccadilly as the DVT + 4 MKIIIs formation used is too long for that platform.

Is that not possible on HSTs?

 

[BestWestern]

On loco hauled MKIII stock you can operate just the local door by pressing the door release buttons for a very quick amount of time, as opposed to the several seconds you need to hold them in for to release the doors on the entire rake. Until recently this was done every day at Helsby on the 07:38 Chester - Manchester Piccadilly as the DVT + 4 MKIIIs formation used is too long for that platform.

Is that not possible on HSTs?

It certainly isn't an approved method!

If a single door is desperately needed, it's a case of use the egress.

 

[craigybagel]

It certainly isn't an approved method!

If a single door is desperately needed, it's a case of use the egress.

Standard procedure for us! A work around has been found so it doesn't need to be done at Helsby on that service any more but it's still the process to be followed if for whatever reason any other stop is made at a short platform.

 

[swt class 450]

With enough time, money and electrical cable I'm sure you can do anything....There's not much call for it at the moment - the only booked working in passenger service is for a 4 car set which fits at every station it stops at so it would only be of use on rugby days and other special events where 5 or even 6 car workings occasionally turn up (the latter scenario is more of an issue on the marches than on the coast) - but maybe in the future when we have enough units to double up on services then who knows?

The door controls have had some degree of modification already. Originally, doors could only be opened from the cab's - the intermediate panels only had buttons to close the doors, not open them. Originally I believe the driver opened the doors and the guard closed but given the amount of short platforms in Wales this was problematic so they've been modified to give the guards full control, with opening and closing buttons at every panel. The TUDI switch (trailing unit door isolation) is only in cabs though.

I am sure i remember hearing that this was something to do with the unions. I think they wanted the Guard to be in full control of opening the doors and closing the doors and SDO and have the driver just concentrate on driving. Which i personally think is a very sensible idea (the current arrangement on Guard operated 165 / 166 / 375 / 377 trains is ridiculous). I think for the same reason the 180s were modified when they went to Northern Rail so the Guard would have full control over opening the doors and closing the doors and SDO.

 

[GW43125]

I was waiting for that...!! Not thick at all, rocket science in fact!

So, to put it simply, it holds the locks off, is that correct?

 

[BestWestern]

So, to put it simply, it holds the locks off, is that correct?

Essentially, yes! Sort of

 

[BestWestern]

Standard procedure for us! A work around has been found so it doesn't need to be done at Helsby on that service any more but it's still the process to be followed if for whatever reason any other stop is made at a short platform.

Quite interesting, our safety bods would be having kittens!

Has anybody ever held them too long and released the whole lot?! Would that be tea no biscuits at your place?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am sure i remember hearing that this was something to do with the unions. I think they wanted the Guard to be in full control of opening the doors and closing the doors and SDO and have the driver just concentrate on driving. Which i personally think is a very sensible idea (the current arrangement on Guard operated 165 / 166 / 375 / 377 trains is ridiculous). I think for the same reason the 180s were modified when they went to Northern Rail so the Guard would have full control over opening the doors and closing the doors and SDO.

Yes, that (not the intermediate panels) was what I was referring to. The unions insisted that driver-released doors were not acceptable and the units were modified to gain guard-accessible open buttons. This happened in FNW days.

(My personal view is that driver release, guard close is the optimal solution, and it is used in lots of places around the network, not least Pendolinos).

 

[GW43125]

Yes, that (not the intermediate panels) was what I was referring to. The unions insisted that driver-released doors were not acceptable and the units were modified to gain guard-accessible open buttons. This happened in FNW days.

(My personal view is that driver release, guard close is the optimal solution, and it is used in lots of places around the network, not least Pendolinos).

Driver release is all well and good until he/she forgets their train length and releases short...

 

[BestWestern]

Driver release is all well and good until he/she forgets their train length and releases short...

Indeed. Certainly a consideration on commuter runs with stock of varying lengths, if less so on the above mentioned Pendolinos etc.

 

[craigybagel]

Driver release is all well and good until he/she forgets their train length and releases short...

Indeed, or as was the other issue in FNW days which still applies in the case of the 175s, you have a lot of stations that are local door only. Especially if you need to remember if you're in a 2 car or 3 car (which are pretty much identical in the cab) since some of those stations are full release for a 2 car but local door only for a 3!

Quite interesting, our safety bods would be having kittens!

Has anybody ever held them too long and released the whole lot?! Would that be tea no biscuits at your place?

No idea. There is a procedure in place for if that does happen, but I don't know if it's ever had to be done. At least now a change has been made to the way that one service which used to do it daily operates, so it's no longer done regularly AFAIK, just in disruption. I've only recently signed them and I've not had to do local door only yet - and I'll be grateful if it stays that way, they're hard enough to work as it is!

 

[CC 72100]

Indeed, along with 'Hold'...

As soon as I saw this I wondered how long it would take to get onto explanations on how and why you sometimes have to use SDO Hold v. SDO off

 

[BestWestern]

As soon as I saw this I wondered how long it would take to get onto explanations on how and why you sometimes have to use SDO Hold v. SDO off

I feel like a certain Mr Hawking trying to explain how it works!

 

[mark-h]

Indeed. Certainly a consideration on commuter runs with stock of varying lengths, if less so on the above mentioned Pendolinos etc.

Rear cab platform facing CCTV would make this very easy on a fixed length train.

 

[BestWestern]

Rear cab platform facing CCTV would make this very easy on a fixed length train.

It would. I don't know of any, though...

 

[craigybagel]

It would. I don't know of any, though...

A lot easier to just get the guard to do it though.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot easier to just get the guard to do it though.....

Not when he is trying to do tickets.


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